Should we allow Infanticide?

For the love of everything Why!? Seriously why argue about abortion? In the end it comes down to the liberals shouting for it and the conservatives shouting against it. Both sides call on reasoning or morals and religion. Yes I've seen both sides use the Holy Bible for this. I am sick and tired of this waste of time. Now then that I've ranted can we get on with discussing the subject of killing newborns which I am sure we all can discuss a bit more rationally than abortion it seems.
 
KILLING newborns is morally the same as abortion and should be permissible if the mother wishes it, Australian philosophers have argued in an article that has unleashed a firestorm of criticism and forced the British Medical Journal to defend its publication.

Alberto Giubilini, from Monash University, and Francesca Minerva, from the University of Melbourne, say a foetus and a newborn are equivalent in their lack of a sense of their own life and aspiration. They contend this justifies what they call ''after-birth abortion'' as long as it is painless, because the baby is not harmed by missing out on a life it cannot conceptualise.

About a third of infants with Down syndrome are not diagnosed prenatally, Drs Giubilini and Minerva say, and mothers of children with serious abnormalities should have the chance to end the child's life after, as well as before, birth.

But this should also extend to healthy infants, the pair argue in the BMJ group's Journal of Medical Ethics, because the interests of a mother who is unwilling to care for it outweigh a baby's claims.

The academics call an infant, like a foetus, only a ''potential person'', but they do not define the point at which it gains human status, saying this depends on the baby's degree of self-awareness and is a matter for neurologists and psychologists.
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source

Legalization of abortion could never lead to legalized infanticide amirite?
 
No, because they're very different things. Euthanasia is a completely different topic from abortion. It's a red herring.

I really can't get this out of my mind.

Isn't the logical conclusion of this to put the elderly down just about the point when future generations decide they don't want to pay for all of this retirement, pension and free medical care that is being promised now?

Scary world to grow old in.

Er, no, that's not the logical conclusion at all. The idea that the elderly are 'persons' is very clearly factored by the article.

Now, I disagree with the authors' deduction regarding the personhood of infants, but their slippery slope doesn't lead to putting down the elderly.
 
For the love of everything Why!? Seriously why argue about abortion? In the end it comes down to the liberals shouting for it and the conservatives shouting against it. Both sides call on reasoning or morals and religion. Yes I've seen both sides use the Holy Bible for this. I am sick and tired of this waste of time.
Let me guess, you have a... Penis? Did I get that right? I'm pretty sure I got that right.
 
I think there are two different discussions here:

-Late term abortions are the same as infanticide;
-Infanticide of newborns is acceptable.

I'll address the second. I think anyone who thinks killing a newborn baby is acceptable is a sick monster that should be locked in some hole for the remaining of their lives.
 
I also agree that war is bad.

Unless I'm mistaken, the people quoted in the OP are arguing in a prestigious medical ethics publication that killing newborns is acceptable. And from what I read about the case in the local media, a lot of prestigious idiots defended that idea too.
 
Unless I'm mistaken, the people quoted in the OP are arguing in a prestigious medical ethics publication that killing newborns is acceptable. And from what I read about the case in the local media, a lot of prestigious idiots defended that idea too.
I know, I was just observing that "killin' babies = A-OK" isn't quite as unorthodox a position as people seem to think. These guys are just qualifying it a bit less heavily than the usual advocates.
 
So... what?

What would you prefer; Risky, Dangerous and potentially life-threatening back-street abortions, or abortions that were carried out in a safe environment? Banning abortion won't stop it, it'll merely drive it to the back alleys.

I'd prefer dangerous ones:

1. The government isn't endorsing them.

2. Since abortion is murder anyway, dying during one is natural capital punishment.

(Note: I'm not wishing for people considering abortion to die, I'm wishing they would not consider it. As abortion is murder, actually doing it warrants a death sentence anyway.)
 
But you are, because woman have died from backstreet abortions.

Seriously.
 
I'd prefer dangerous ones:

1. The government isn't endorsing them.

2. Since abortion is murder anyway, dying during one is natural capital punishment.

(Note: I'm not wishing for people considering abortion to die, I'm wishing they would not consider it. As abortion is murder, actually doing it warrants a death sentence anyway.)
Classy, GhostWriter. Real classy.
 
And to be honest Ghostwriter, the stance you are taking PUNISHES women, especially those have been raped and are the victims of incest.

It's dehumanising and horrible, and as per usual you fail to understand that there are valid situations in which AN ABORTION IS REQUIRED TO SAVE THE MOTHERS LIFE.
 
I actually think it's internally consistent. I mean, I vociferously disagree and I'm a bit offended at the idea, but I think that it's a logical moral stance given certain inputs.

It shows that the inputs are incorrect, not that the thinking is incorrect..

I find the switch interesting, given previous pro-infanticide comments from Ghostwriter16. Where he agreed that slaughtering babies is sometimes okay, even if it's totally convenient to take care of them instead.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9464179&postcount=111

or here

And justifying killing the children is easy in this case. Not that it was "Good" but that it helped Israel. Hamaan descended from the King, who Saul left alive, and desired to destroy all the Jews. If they had left ANY child alive, this could have happened.


It's the same argument that Classical_Hero makes. It's okay to kill babies if you think they might be the next Hitler.
 
I personally have never understood the difficulty with this subject. The line is extremely clear for me. If the child could survive without the mother, it shouldn't be legal to abort the pregnancy. Until then, the fetus is simply a part of the mother's body and shouldn't been seen as a distinct human life.
 
also, why dont we discuss sexual child abuse while we're at it?

so, are you for or against it?

That's a really tricky question.
Since sex with a pregnant woman -even in the early stages when nobody yet knows she's pregnant.- is basically the same as having a threesome with a woman and a newborn child, we should, for the sake of consistency, either legalise sex with children or outlaw sex with any woman who could be pregnant i.e. didn't have her period since the last time she had sex.
Now I'm of the opinion that sexual child abuse is a heinous enough crime that preventing it would justify a law whereby any woman is legally restricted to one act of coitus per month (regardless of contraception, we all know it's not 100% safe).
This restriction would, of course, not apply to men as long as they change partners and only sleep with the same woman once per cycle.
 
That's a really tricky question.
Since sex with a pregnant woman -even in the early stages when nobody yet knows she's pregnant.- is basically the same as having a threesome with a woman and a newborn child, we should, for the sake of consistency, either legalise sex with children or outlaw sex with any woman who could be pregnant i.e. didn't have her period since the last time she had sex.
Now I'm of the opinion that sexual child abuse is a heinous enough crime that preventing it would justify a law whereby any woman is legally restricted to one act of coitus per month (regardless of contraception, we all know it's not 100% safe).
This restriction would, of course, not apply to men as long as they change partners and only sleep with the same woman once per cycle.

I really don't agree with that logic. Once an adult, I couldn't image telling anyone who they can and can't have sex with (assuming its consensual).
 
I really can't get this out of my mind.

Isn't the logical conclusion of this to put the elderly down just about the point when future generations decide they don't want to pay for all of this retirement, pension and free medical care that is being promised now?

Scary world to grow old in.
Thats why I try to take care of my health (as best I can). Not that I'd want to be a useless elder sitting around half-dead anyway.
 
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