The great DoC 1.8 UHV challenge

morff said:

What do you mean? Virtually i won, however i just checked the first post of this thread, and i have to still finish the game, so... i'll do it today lol

(Virtual goals (i.e. all green in the victory screen even though you haven't reached the deadline yet) count as well for that purpose, although you will still have to complete the game.)

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Oh sorry I was confused, there's this HRE-Prussia split in later SVN revisions, so my brain didn't adjust well when I posted.

Again Germany UHV 1.8 version; monarch normal speed.

Victory: preliminary UHV victory 1890 (e.g. all green; or 1891, when it counted in), and UHV in 1940 (or 1941)



See attachments for both saves, and some stats screenshots.

@Leoreth: I was playing with SVN 280
I've checked out the Byzantines on SVN 281 and I must say it is very nice seeing a navy at the start

Civ: Holy Rome/Austria. Speed: Epic. Difficulty: Monarch. Score: 8593.

So, I spawned in the ninth century (like the HRE usually does) and look around with world-builder where the Christian HC is. Guess what? It's in Paris. I did not have to travel a long way for my crusade Oh, and the Hagia Sophia in Paris was a nice boon too.

I attack France with my spawning knights/catapults and capture all their French cities. However, they decide to be even more useful than they already were, as they apparently captured Rome, allowing me to capitulate them.

Vassal: 1/3.


I found Wien, Memel (near Sankt-Petersbourg) and Hamburg, tech Paper-Printing Press, which I reach in 1170 AD. I also run three priests (Hagia Sophia) in Paris for the two holy shrines. I chop out a forge and the AP in Frankfurt.

AP and Church of Holy Sepulchre: controlled.

I get the reworked Reformation pop-up, and choose the second option. It causes Memel's catholics to convert to protestantism, which is bad (it's a -3 malus), but at least it's the only thing which happens.

Protestantism: founded.

And now comes the good thing : England had been at war with the Vikings since spawn. Portugal and Spain join the Counter-reformation. Result: Poor Alfred decides he can't handle it anymore and throws himself at my feet. I was already preparing for war with Spain, so I accept. I take my knights, kill Spain's armies, capture Madrid, Sevilla and Barcelona and capitulate Isabella.

Vassal: 3/3

I got very lucky with the Orthodox shrine nearby (Christian HC didn't really matter since I built the AP myself) and with England's peacecap, that's why I could finish this in 1240 AD

Interesting. Can you do me the favour and upload your current Religions.py file here? I'd really like to see if you already have my changes that are intended to fix the Orthodox founding civ.

Sure, here it is. I saved it as a .txt file though, as I couldn't upload the .py file.

Thanks. Looks as if I have to try something else.

Did another England game with the most recent SVN version. Overall, Expansion balance now makes Culture useful rather than disastrous. Tech rate nerf of Europeans a big problem, makes late game England tech path as tricky as early game China. TL;DR England now has better Stability and worse Tech.

Some highlights:

(1) Annaba Marble for fast Sistine Chapel


(2) I get the best out of RNGs




(3) Napoleonic France


(4) China Caps after loosing one city (Hong Kong, with Porcelain Tower)


(5) I was going for Domination at the same time, but came up a bit short


(6) Even an Economy like this can barely keep me Stable


(7) World Map


(8) Score. Slightly better than my Corporate Russia Domination game, but worse than most of my England games in previous versions (due to slower tech). In older versions I was able to tech close to Combustion before 1800. In this one, barely made Mass Media for the UHV.

A few tips:

(0) Sistine Chapel + Mercantilism + Trading Company + Secularism. No hammers to spare for Missionaries, no problem.

(1) Do not conquer with your Conquerors. Instead, use them as garrison troops for future British cities at more desirable locations (such as DENVER, CHICAGO, and BRAZIL). No hammers to spare for units, no problem.

(2) Trade Economics to France a few turns before finishing your own Trading Company. Preferably when you have Rifling (France likes Military Tradition better) and he does not. He will soften up the Mughals nicely for you.

(3) Do not be afraid to peace vassalize Indonesia. Just trade Rifling to them before the Dutch has Rifling, and then immediately trade Economics to the Dutch. Then have fun killing East Indiamen with your Frigates (Anglo-Dutch Wars) while watching the Dutch "Conquerors" melt away against British-sponsored Indonesian Riflemen.

(4) Colonize Brazil. Brazil is the key towards world domination. Apart from Denver and Chicago, that is.

iOnlySignIn, does the +32 trading company really comes from the Brazil resources? I'm trying for Domination atm, and I've only got +15. Your corporation is really

strijder20 said:

iOnlySignIn, does the +32 trading company really comes from the Brazil resources? I'm trying for Domination atm, and I've only got +15. Your corporation is really

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Brazil is loaded. England does not have a large enough Stability map in SA - might as well go for the good stuff:



In the above picture you can see me highlight a Sugar which hasn't been hooked up yet. Neither has another Sugar further north. Same for the Corn, Gold, Iron and Gems nearby. Nobody can micro their workers perfectly, yes? It so happens in this game that I was short by 2~3 Workers in SA. Too preoccupied with wars in NA and Asia.

I also did not settle the Caribbean - from Kingston alone you are able to control 2 Sugar and 2 Tobacco.

I did settle a city in the middle of New Guinea - it controls 2 Spices, 1 Banana, 1 Sugar, 1 Gold, 1 Dye.

Actually I think Leoreth decreased the total amount of TC resources on the map. I used to get its yield above 42 , not just 32.

There are also, um, trade deals, such as:



Note to Leoreth: Please, please don't use my games as reasons to nerf Corporations. It's clear that most players don't play in the same style as I do.

I'm still playing on 1.81 and not SVN;
While I'm happy that the Euros got tech nerfs
(because they just advance far too rapidly to catch up to)
I get the feeling that Leoreth should really have separate
parameters for players and AI.

If that's not too hard to code.

It isn't too hard, however, it's easier to solve it with flat adjustments for all civs via the difficulty settings.

@iOnlySignIn: Interesting game, although you've given me a reason to rethink the city radius stability rule with your penalty-free resource grabbing Not that I'll completely do away with it, but it probably needs to be a little more complex to fairly cover such cases (like only ignoring penalties for tiles that are controlled by cities that are themselves on historical plots).

Is it the Trading Company that gives negative gold? Anyway, I'll probably have to done their multipliers down a little. Textile seems to be fine.

Maybe set a lower cap for corporation gain?

Anyway - this should be 1.8 challenge, the SVN version is not 1.8, or is it?

Leoreth said:

@iOnlySignIn: Interesting game, although you've given me a reason to rethink the city radius stability rule with your penalty-free resource grabbing

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I think it's balanced out by the decreased tech rate.

Like I said, England now has better Stability but worse tech rate. Liberalism + Reformation now requires careful planning (ignoring Engineering and Civil Service are necessary). Military Science is now impossible before 1500 (kill Dutch on spawn) and Combustion impossible before 1800.

Is it the Trading Company that gives negative gold? Anyway, I'll probably have to done their multipliers down a little. Textile seems to be fine.

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No. You should not nerf TC based on how I play, which is something I've always emphasized. In this game as England I control practically every TC resource on the map, by vassalizing Indonesia, Inca, China and controlling all of Brazil and India. That is very hard to do and requires careful planning. A +32 TC is a fitting reward IMO. In fact I used to get +42 TC in previous versions (such as 1.8 - the reason I don't post my 1.8 England games is because they're too easy and don't require any luck).

Say if you control all the Oil on the map - the total is what, 18? You get a +45 Oil Industry. You deserve that because it's very hard to do. With this England at this moment I control 9 Spices, 10 Bananas, 11 Sugar, 3 Tobacco, 4 Tea, 5 Coffee. If you don't get at least 32 out of controlling THAT many resources, well TC is pretty much worthless then, isn't it?

Another shortcoming about controlling every useful resource in the world is that Congress means everyone declares on you. I mean everyone. It's especially bad now since Russia is impossible to get into a Defensive Pack with, as Orthodoxy regards everyone else as a Heathen religion (even if you're Secular, "You've traded with our worst enemies!" is enough).

Only my superior Navy and anticipation (including gifting Rifling to my Chinese vassal) saved the day. Or else this England would have lost 1/3 of its American possessions along with Pakistan in the World War of 1782.

You may want to modify the religion modifiers for Orthodoxy, since currently it means Russia is worthless as an AI as it hates everybody for no good reason.

Also, there is absolutely no historical reason why England cannot settle Brazil. Or the American Great Plains, for that matter. I think that needs to remain true.

Ah. Perhaps I should play a State Property game now to induce a nerf on State Property?

iOnlySignIn said:

Also, there is absolutely no historical reason why England cannot settle Brazil. Or the American Great Plains, for that matter. I think that needs to remain true.

Ah. Perhaps I should play a State Property game now to induce a nerf on State Property?

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^Yes.

I sort of feel like Leoreth nerfed State Property after seeing those early China games of mine before 1.8 was released (which were played on Viceroy).

Now I can't even reach State Property

iOnlySignIn said:

Ah. Perhaps I should play a State Property game now to induce a nerf on State Property?

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Haha, yes, you should pursue different strategies equally so I don't nerf one more than others

Anyway, this might surprise you, but I actually haven't nerfed European teching. The only change is that HRE techs more slowly than Germany did.

But stability shouldn't be related to that anyway. The recent stability change was meant not to penalize you for founding cities on historical tiles due to their culture on ahistorical tiles. I still don't think cities on ahistorical tiles themselves should have the same benefits.

Good point about Russia's behaviour. I'll make Peter and Catherine care a lot less about religion.

Leoreth said:

Haha, yes, you should pursue different strategies equally so I don't nerf one more than others

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But you know State Property isn't really my style. I'm too much of a peaceful trading/resource grabbing type of player, as I find combat in Civ IV a bit tedious. The fact that State Property is less powerful in my hands does not mean it is less powerful in general. No?

On a tangential note, perhaps the combat system/unit balance could be polished up a bit. That would encourage more belligerent styles. For example you mentioned removing Axemen (or at least its +50% bonus vs. melee). Another example is a Musket-Pike-Knight rebalance for the Medieval age. How close are those ideas to becoming reality now?

Leoreth said:

Anyway, this might surprise you, but I actually haven't nerfed European teching. The only change is that HRE techs more slowly than Germany did.

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Well, in my game they not only teched slow, but also died to the French in the Reformation wars. I used to get Gunpowder from Germany all the time as England. Not any more.

I think the slower tech rate is the result of a combination of slower Germany, and rampant Reformation wars. The Human player fast teching Printing Press (something I *always* do) to initiate Reformation earlier than intended probably makes it even worse.

This just made me realize how England's prosperity is closely tied to a peaceful and balanced Continental Europe. I may need to be less Isolationist in the future - letting Germany die (and letting a Napoleonic France emerge) slowed me down. But is that a reason strong enough for England to Embrace the Reformation?

Leoreth said:

But stability shouldn't be related to that anyway. The recent stability change was meant not to penalize you for founding cities on historical tiles due to their culture on ahistorical tiles. I still don't think cities on ahistorical tiles themselves should have the same benefits.

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Well, I still think Culture, by the very definition of the word, should be a boon rather than an abomination.

I also didn't show you the Stability screen of that England game. It's actually much (about 30 points) worse than my Corporate Novgorod Domination game, and yet was a tiny bit short from a 1800 CE Domination.