SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

Mitchum · Apr 10, 2012

@ Dhoom

As I understand it, tanking Cyrus' economy is not the main point of gifting him cities; it's a nice side benefit. The primary benefit is the ability to:

1. gift him junky Hatty and Toku cities that are within 9 tiles of Tokyo
2. Being able to easily take said cities back, thus incuring easy war success which leads to free techs.

The benefit of settling Tokyo-3N now would be that we could capture Tokyo and threaten Tokyo-3N, allowing us to demand higher value techs in the DoP process. In this case, I don't think the added benefit of threatening Tokyo-3N would make that big a difference, such as allowing us to get CoL or something similar. (EDIT: If we could get CoL, I'd vote for settling Tokyo-3N BTW). Another benefit would be that we'd never have to gift him Tokyo again so we could groom this city as we see fit without worrying about losing a granary...

Dhoomstriker · Apr 10, 2012

Okay, I could see gifting Tokyo if the idea is to do something like the following:
1. In the future, we gift a bunch of Cities to an AI (preferably mostly the junky ones)
2. We declare war on said AI
3. We capture all of the Cities
4. We gift all of those Cities to a different AI that will accept them (which will probably only be Cyrus, Toku, and Hatty until we get to a point where another AI is marginalized sufficiently to be willing to accept any one of those Cities due to having less than 4 Cities)
5. We then declare war on that second AI and recapture all of the Cities
6. We then gift all of those Cities to a third AI
7. Hopefully, by now, the first AI will give us something of value for peace (if we threaten one of an AI's Core Cities, could we feasibly even get to a point where they would offer us one of their threatened Core Cities for peace???)
8. WE just keep gifting away Cities and recapturing them from an AI that we aren't locked into 10 turns of Peace with

Devil's Advocate: We don't need to gift Cyrus a City now, as, technically, we could declare war on any AI (including Cyrus). If we don't really care about hurting relationships, as part of the Peace Treaty, we could gift away one of the junky Cities. Then, after 10 turns, we could gift away nearby Cities that would be accepted by said AI and then recapture them all.

In other words, we don't need to gift Cyrus a City now if we are willing to "make the investment" of getting into a war with him in the future for the sole purpose of gifting him a City as part of a Peace Treaty (meaning that we'd have to wait until he was naturally willing to talk to us and also wait a full 10 turns of Peace before we could launch our gifting plan).

Technically, we could start to do the same with other AIs soon... get into a war for the sole purpose of gifting them a City as part of the Peace Treaty. We'd just want to make sure that we have enough tightly-packed junky Cities that we don't mind gifting and regifting, which may involve us building Settlers.

If we're willing to go to that level, then trying to settle Tokyo-3N (if Cyrus will still take it) now seems like a good plan, with the backup plan being that we would declare war on him and instead gift him a junky City once he is willing to talk with us after the 8, 10, 12, or however many turns it is... with us possibly keeping the Settler around all of that time since we're not sure if Hatty is going to have a junky City that we want to dispose of by the time that Cyrus is willing to talk.

We should, however, look at how many Cities we can pack in, in order to get maximum use out of the land in terms of the number of Cities that we would be gifting around.

Mitchum · Apr 11, 2012

Dhoomstriker said:
Okay, I could see gifting Tokyo if the idea is to do something like the following:
1. In the future, we gift a bunch of Cities to an AI (preferably mostly the junky ones)
2. We declare war on said AI
3. We capture all of the Cities
4. We gift all of those Cities to a different AI that will accept them (which will probably only be Cyrus, Toku, and Hatty until we get to a point where another AI is marginalized sufficiently to be willing to accept any one of those Cities due to having less than 4 Cities)
5. We then declare war on that second AI and recapture all of the Cities
6. We then gift all of those Cities to a third AI
7. Hopefully, by now, the first AI will give us something of value for peace (if we threaten one of an AI's Core Cities, could we feasibly even get to a point where they would offer us one of their threatened Core Cities for peace???)
8. WE just keep gifting away Cities and recapturing them from an AI that we aren't locked into 10 turns of Peace with

Well, you're forgetting one key component in your 8-step plan above; at least it's not spelled out explicitly. After steps 3, 5 and 6, we get techs for peace. I'd rather have a tech than a city in the DoP process. The city will be ours in due time, it's the "free" techs we're after.

Dhoomstriker said:
Devil's Advocate: We don't need to gift Cyrus a City now, as, technically, we could declare war on any AI (including Cyrus). If we don't really care about hurting relationships, as part of the Peace Treaty, we could gift away one of the junky Cities. Then, after 10 turns, we could gift away nearby Cities that would be accepted by said AI and then recapture them all.

This looks like an alternate way of doing the same thing. The biggest drawback is that it delays the whole process. If we gift Cyrus a city this turn, which we know he'll take, then we can start the process NOW. We can get Fishing in 3 turns. At any time down the road we can gift him Tokyo again and a city within 9 tiles of it; either a junk city we settle or one we capture. If we gift and recapture enough cities, while threatening Tokyo-3N (which is where we'd likely park him so we don't have keep giving him Tokyo), we can get techs in the DoP.

While your suggestion "might" work, we couldn't even get Fishing until we plant Tokyo-3N (3 to 4 turns), declare a "fake" war, hope that he'll take Tokyo-3N in the process which I'm not sure he'd do if he wouldn't take it as a gift before the war (3+ turns if we don't have any war success), time of peace (10 turns), capture city and get techs for peace (3 turns). That's about 20 turns for Fishing unless I'm missing something...

In any event, gifting and re-capturing Tokyo on the same turn (or the next turn), thus losing one pop point there, is worth it to get Fishing much, much sooner.

Dhoomstriker said:
We should, however, look at how many Cities we can pack in, in order to get maximum use out of the land in terms of the number of Cities that we would be gifting around.

This is an option and has the added benefit of allowing cities fully engulfed by our culture, creating the one-tile cities LC was talking about. Those cities could be gifted, captured and re-gifted as often as we like.

I keep forgetting to tell you that the cow/deer/Tokyo-3N/Osaka-3N settler was completed last turn. We just have to figure out where to send him.

I'm away from Civ at the moment, but if there are any screen shots you'd like to see, let me know and I'll post them for you. I think the F4 Tech screen would be a nice one as you're good at spotting opportunities related to techs. Maybe a shot of Tokyo and the surrounding area too...

ZPV · Apr 11, 2012

Pre-play-plan t99-onwards

Unit needs:
8-10 cats
2+ pikes
super medic
5+ trebs
plenty of killer units
--------
We have:
5 cats
2 spears
super-medic to be
8 axes

Delhi:
Cat (whip)-HE-trebs
Turn 99: 6fpt, 18 base hpt, 77/50 Catapult (steal copper, fp)
Turn 100: 7fpt, 39+14 base hpt, 0/200 HE (cede copper)
Turn 101: 6fpt, 18 base hpt, 119/200 HE (now at size 8, steal copper again)
Turn 102: 4or5fpt, 19 base hpt, 159/200 HE
Then produce a treb every other turn (growing to size 9)

Marble:
Forge-Pike-Cat-Cat
The forge takes 2 turns. The pike gets whipped for 2 pop. Then the cat, with my profoundest apologies to the citizens of Marble.

NC:
Failgold - work boatworker

Zlatorog:
Forge-Sword-Worker.
I'd like to chop the chokepoint now, and we need the worker.

GEL:
Cat (partial) - Treb (5 hammers) - finish Cat - Pike - whip Treb at pop6 - finish Pike - Sword (partial) - Treb (5 hammers) - etc.

Osaka:
Cat-Cat
No out-of-borders chops.

Kyoto:
Library-Granary-GLib
Since we're short of tiles to work, I plan to chop the forest this turn, 2pop the Library next turn (chopping the southern forest), then 1pop the Granary.
We'll grow back to size 2 in time for border pop, with a full granary and loads of food tiles to work to grow back to size.

Tokyo:
Gift-recapture immediately-Granary. It needs the granary.

Worker actions:
Two workers go to the iron. The Zlat worker, and one NC worker.
The Delhi worker improves the cow, then returns to finish the plains cottage.
The Marble worker finishes its cottage, then goes to camp the deer.
The Kyoto workers have their work cut out chopping. Boom boom.
One will chop in place, and then move to road Tokyo->Memphis. The other will chop the southern forest, then one turn of partial farm at GEL, then chop Osaka's inner ring forest.

Settle Deer-Cow, building a granary.
Units move to Tokyo.
Reseach Literature @ minimum -> Currency @ 0%

I'll play until we have enough units to consider a DoW.
Give Tokyo to Cyrus, recapture it immediately, then take peace for fishing at first opportunity.
One axe at Zlatorog will go to the chokepoint.
I'll check each turn for interesting Egyptian techs.
Stopping points: unwanted DoWs, something weird, the end of the Egypt peace treaty.

LowtherCastle · Apr 11, 2012

PPP looks good to me.

ZPV said:
Pre-play-plan t99-onwards

Unit needs:
8-10 cats
2+ pikes
super medic
5+ trebs
plenty of killer units

I don't think we need more than 1 pike, if even that, to DoW Hatty and take Memphis. The Marble pike arrives in Tokyo on T106, so if Hatty has HBR, we could wait till T107 to DoW. We should check if Hatty meets Cyrus after gifting him Tokyo, because he could trade her HBR.

ZPV said:
GEL:
Treb (4 hammers or less)

Whip hammers w/forge:

Code:

1whip:  37h
2whip:  74h
3whip: 112h

So we can put 4base-h = 5h (Gold+city center) into trebs and still 3whip them.

ZPV said:
Worker actions:
Two workers go to the iron. The only two which can reach it right away are the Zlat worker and the Delhi one.
One NC worker stays to cottage. One goes to Delhi to replace that worker.
The Marble worker finishes its cottage, then goes to camp the deer.
The Kyoto workers have their work cut out chopping.

The NC workers also reach the iron as fast as the Delhi worker. Since you're only working 19base-h in Delhi, it seems better to pasture the cows with the Delhi wkr, send the Marble worker to NC, send one NC wkr to the iron.

I'd also prioritize roads at Tokyo-SW and -NE over one of the Osaka chops. Can one of the workers go straight to those roads from Kyoto-NW and still get the second Kyoto chop done in time for the granary 1whip?

ZPV said:
I'll play until we have enough units to consider a DoW.

As I said above, I'd plan for a T106 DoW if Hatty doesn't have HBR yet, otherwise, T107. Other trebs and cats can arrive for the Druidic celebrations at Thebes just in time for the summer solstice.

---

I'd also keep an eye on Hatty's units in the area. We know of the CII sword and the damaged WC so far. One unit could explore to the north of Tokyo.

Check each turn if Hatty has researched HBR or Theology. If she gets Theology, then I think we should seriously consider researcing Mono ourselves in time for a DoP extortion of Theology, if the AP hasn't been completed yet. Also along these lines, we're in the market for a city with lots of forests to chop the AP.

If we meet new AIs, immediately check if they have more than 3 cities yet. :mwaha:

As Mitchum mentioned, we need to put our axe at the Zlatorog chokepoint until we DoP with Cyrus, so his derelict archer doesn't threaten Zlatorog, thus screwing our Fishing extortion. SO I guess the warrior will have to hang around as a garrision for a few turns.

When you planning to play?

ZPV · Apr 11, 2012

2pops give 75h, I believe
edit: just tested it. They do give 75h, but you can only do one with 74 or fewer hammers remaining. That means I don't have to unwork the gold.

ZPV · Apr 11, 2012

I just don't see how a NC worker can start to mine the iron next turn. It's too far away.

LowtherCastle · Apr 11, 2012

ZPV said:
2pops give 75h, I believe
edit: just tested it. They do give 75h, but you can only do one with 74 or fewer hammers remaining. That means I don't have to unwork the gold.

Thanks for the clarification. It didn't make sense to me that 30h*2*1.25=74h but I figured there was some rounding stuff. In any case, I was basing my info on actual testing so I knew the 3pop happened at 5/80h.

(I prefer to test these poprush max and mins when it's crucial.)

ZPV said:
I just don't see how a NC worker can start to mine the iron next turn. It's too far away.

(Just don't tell Mitchum or Dhoom I made this screenshot, they'll have a fit...

)

LowtherCastle · Apr 11, 2012

Note to turnset players: With Engineering, we have to get used to a whole new set of possibilities with the Fast Workers, because they can now move two roaded tiles, finish on a third, unroaded tile and still have two movement points left.

ZPV · Apr 11, 2012

LowtherCastle said:
Note to turnset players: With Engineering, we have to get used to a whole new set of possibilities with the Fast Workers, because they can now move two roaded tiles, finish on a third, unroaded tile and still have two movement points left.

Of course. Engineering lets the worker get there.

Mitchum · Apr 11, 2012

ZPV said:
2+ pikes

With one pike from Marble and one from GEL, we should be good.

ZPV said:
NC:
Failgold to pop7 - worker

Can you add an exploring work boat to the build queue please?

ZPV said:
GEL:
Cat (partial) - Treb (4 hammers or less) - finish Cat - Pike - whip Treb at pop6 - finish Pike - Sword (partial) - Treb (4h or less) - etc.

I think what happens is that a one-pop whip with a forge gives 30 * 1.25 = 37.5 -> 37H. Rather than giving 60 * 1.25 = 75H for a 2-pop whip, we get 37 * 2 = 74H

ZPV said:
Worker actions:

It seems that this has changed. Can you update this so I have an idea of what's going on now?

ZPV said:
The Kyoto workers have their work cut out chopping.

Pun intended?

ZPV said:
Reseach Currency @ 0%

After one turn on Literature, right? Will you run 30% research, which is just enough to get it in 1T.

ZPV said:
I'll play until we have enough units to consider a DoW.

What units will we have on T106/T107?

ZPV said:
Extort Fishing from Cyrus.

Just to be clear, this will be as part of DoP, not a separate extortion, right? Should we also go archer hunting in the NW or should we just have our axe on the choke point?

BTW LC, we have two axes in Zlatorog, not an axe and warrior. The warrior left for MP duty last turnset.

I assume we're building a granary in deer/cow.

@LC - Stop farting around with the ~~test~~ real save... :lol:

J/K

ZPV · Apr 11, 2012

I've updated the PPP in red.
I'll play this evening if I get enough go-aheads or else tomorrow, most likely morning (GMT+1)

Mitchum · Apr 11, 2012

Looks good, ZPV. You're good to go as far as I'm concerned... although I didn't see you building any bazookas!

LowtherCastle · Apr 11, 2012

PPP looks fine with me too, ZPV.

I didn't check the MM details, but at first glance it seems like NC might need more cottages before COws needs the Deer camp? (referring to whether to send the Marble worker to the deer or to NC) Also, as Mitchum pointed out, we could use either the pigs or the cows being connected to help Delhi grow faster. The pigs only require 1 road.

LowtherCastle · Apr 11, 2012

Mitchum has an interesting idea. We could hire an engineer in GEL. Then if we get religion there, by auto or manual spread, we could add a priest. That would give us a chance for a Prophet for Theology (a little late probably) or a GE maybe just in time for the AP.

magnusmarcus · Apr 11, 2012

LowtherCastle said:
Mitchum has an interesting idea. We could hire an engineer in GEL. Then if we get religion there, by auto or manual spread, we could add a priest. That would give us a chance for a Prophet for Theology (a little late probably) or a GE maybe just in time for the AP.

I'm all for that. Lets roll the die

Mitchum · Apr 11, 2012

@ ZPV

It looks like you have 3 written approvals and an approval in concept by Dhoomstriker. Are you planning to play today?

Will you run an engineer in GEL too or does that slow down growth too much?

ZPV · Apr 11, 2012

Mitchum said:
@ ZPV

It looks like you have 3 written approvals and an approval in concept by Dhoomstriker. Are you planning to play today?

Will you run an engineer in GEL too or does that slow down growth too much?

I'll have to do it tomorrow morning. I can't run the engineer every turn, but it makes GEL/Osaka MM a bit more complicated.

Mitchum · Apr 11, 2012

ZPV said:
I can't run the engineer every turn, but it makes GEL/Osaka MM a bit more complicated.

Right. On the turn you pre-build a treb, you have to keep the hammers to 5 or less and we'd rather work the gold than an engineer for those turns.

The trickiest thing about MMing cities that share tiles (e.g. GEL/Osaka, Delhi/Marble) is to make sure that the improved resources get worked every turn and the cities that need food or hammers work the right tiles. If you come up with anything clever, let us know because we'll all be faced with the same challenge during our turnsets.

Dhoomstriker · Apr 12, 2012

LowtherCastle said:
Check each turn if Hatty has researched HBR or Theology. If she gets Theology, then I think we should seriously consider researcing Mono ourselves in time for a DoP extortion of Theology, if the AP hasn't been completed yet.

Now might actually be a good time to try our best to pump out a Great Prophet from GEL.

If we Lightbulb Theology ourselves, we can gift it around to the AIs that are physically near to us.

Since we need to physically capture the Buddhist Apostolic Palace in order to be able to be elected Religious Leader of the World, the best way to capture it will be to be the ones who can choose which AI will get Theology as a gift from us.

We are unable to build a Buddhist AP. Thus, obtaining Theology in trade is bad for us for two reasons:
a) It opens up Paper, thereby screwing up an Astronomy Lightbulb
AND
b) It prevents us from gifting-around Theology, which means that we will have much less control over which AI builds the Apostolic Palace, meaning that an AI that is isolated (either far away from us or on another continent, heck, even in a City surrounded by Peaks) could end up building the Apostolic Palace.

Therefore, I am pretty strongly against getting Theology from an AI. That said, I am all for switching GEL to completing a Temple and then running a Priest Specialist (and if we have a Forge there already, also an Engineeer Specialist).

If we happened to get a Great Engineer, we could attempt to get back on Hatty's good side by liberating all of her Cities back to her, get Open Borders with her, and then gift her the Great Engineer, assuming that she already knew Theology by that point. Otherwise, we'd just use the Great Prophet to Lightbulb Theology (which would need double-checking that Theology would be the tech that comes up for Lightbulbing, but I am pretty certain that it is the tech that a Great Prophet would Lightbulb).

And yeah, I'm advocating changing the PPP for GEL to accomodate this Great Person.

Delaying the Hatty war by a couple of turns just to have the flexibility to save 30+ turns on capturing the Apostolic Palace seems like a worthwhile tradeoff to me.

LowtherCastle said:
(Just don't tell Mitchum or Dhoom I made this screenshot, they'll have a fit... )

Is that because you're farting around with the real saved game, because you're wasting a Worker turn, or both?

SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

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