SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

Preventing war with Hammuragawa
I think there is a 99%+ chance we will be able to beg 10 gold from Hammuragawa and prevent him from declaring on us.

Avoid Liz bribing Hatsegawa into war with us.

The only thing that I can think of that would make this less likely is if we give Hatsegawa any tech that Liz might bribe her with ourselves. I don't think we have any tech like this and techs we steal we can't give away... So not a great idea.

Shaka won't be able to bribe Hatsegawa into war with Toku with techs we give Shaka because of the "no tech brokering" option.
(edit: and they haven't met !)
I think we are left with "hope she doesn't".

Oh, or "hope Hatsegawa demands something from us so we get to pleased before the DoW" then beg 10 gold from her :)
 
Kaitzilla said:
PPP is done. Figured out the Hindu missionary micro. We also get failgold in Dehli doing it this way :lol: So 31 gold form SheepTown and 16 from Dehli.

It basically looks like a continuation of what WastinTime did in his turnset :crazyeye:

Sorry it took a whole week to make.
Click to expand...

I didn't see explicit mention of the settler that will try to settle near Hammuragawa for another liberation. Is this in the PPP? (Otherwise it looks good to me--but I haven't done a playtest)

No worries about the delay in the PPP. If all goes to plan we finish in 2 more turnsets :)

I think we worked out some critical pieces this turnset, thanks for being patient with the sudden changes in strategy.
 
bcool said:
I didn't see explicit mention of the settler that will try to settle near Hammuragawa for another liberation. Is this in the PPP? (Otherwise it looks good to me--but I haven't done a playtest)

No worries about the delay in the PPP. If all goes to plan we finish in 2 more turnsets :)

I think we worked out some critical pieces this turnset, thanks for being patient with the sudden changes in strategy.
Click to expand...


Ya, the settler built by Dehli by T117 will walk 4 tiles toward Hammu's new liberation site 4 tiles north of Babylon instead of founding FishTown. The one whipped in CowTown at the end will belong to the next turnset.

By all means mention any concerns. I will be playing from the PPP printout.
 
Critical error:
Someone may have to fact check me, but I'm 99% sure on this:

We currently have a peace agreement with Hamm (peace t103). If we beg for 10 gold it won't renew this agreement. The agreement will still expire (t114?) and we could get the Hamm war. We could beg on t114, but we will already be at war with Liz and there is still the risk of Hamm DoW. I think we need to maintain the Hamm-Shaka war until at least 114 when we re-new the peace agreement.
 
WastinTime said:
Critical error:
Someone may have to fact check me, but I'm 99% sure on this:

We currently have a peace agreement with Hamm (peace t103). If we beg for 10 gold it won't renew this agreement. The agreement will still expire (t114?) and we could get the Hamm war. We could beg on t114, but we will already be at war with Liz and there is still the risk of Hamm DoW. I think we need to maintain the Hamm-Shaka war until at least 114 when we re-new the peace agreement.
Click to expand...

I'm away from the game, so I can't fact check this. However, on T114 we can beg from Hammuragawa, then DoW on Liz, so there is a tiny window it still might work if it turns out the beg during a peace treaty doesn't extend the peace treaty 10 turns.
 
bcool said:
I'm away from the game, so I can't fact check this. However, on T114 we can beg from Hammuragawa, then DoW on Liz, so there is a tiny window it still might work if it turns out the beg during a peace treaty doesn't extend the peace treaty 10 turns.
Click to expand...

Oh ya, peace treaties might not stack or renew. Nice catch :goodjob:

Will have to test this later. Bcool's idea seems right. Cancel the old peace treaty T113, then beg to get a new one. This should fix the problem, but reduces the turns we can beg Hamma for gold down to 2.

T112 peace treaty now seems like a bad idea.
 
bcool said:
I'm away from the game, so I can't fact check this. However, on T114 we can beg from Hammuragawa, then DoW on Liz, so there is a tiny window it still might work if it turns out the beg during a peace treaty doesn't extend the peace treaty 10 turns.
Click to expand...

We have to DoW on Liz t113 in order to capture her cities t114 (otherwise she could have a hindu city which equals disaster)

However, Kaitzilla has a good point...if we can cancel the peace deal manually t113 and then renew it that turn we should be ok.
 
WastinTime said:
We have to DoW on Liz t113 in order to capture her cities t114 (otherwise she could have a hindu city which equals disaster)

However, Kaitzilla has a good point...if we can cancel the peace deal manually t113 and then renew it that turn we should be ok.
Click to expand...

We can DoW liz on T114. We just have to remember to gift her LizTown on T113 so our border pressure can push it down to one tile on T114 and our axes can use Fritz's new road to walk in.
 
Agree with revised PPP. We may need to bribe Hammuragawa out of Theocracy for the RL DV vote, so we can convert several of his cities to Hinduism to ensure enough votes for the win. Also need to convert his State Religion to Hinduism to double the votes (via Espionage).

Despite our manipulation of TAP, RL DV is no more imbalanced that any other victory condition, especially the SGOTM-15 setup. We are working very hard (good grand strategy; excellent micromanagement) and deserve full credit for the win.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Sun Tzu Wu said:
Agree with revised PPP. We may need to bribe Hammuragawa out of Theocracy for the RL DV vote, so we can convert several of his cities to Hinduism to ensure enough votes for the win. Also need to convert his State Religion to Hinduism to double the votes (via Espionage).

Despite our manipulation of TAP, RL DV is no more imbalanced that any other victory condition, especially the SGOTM-15 setup. We are working very hard (good grand strategy; excellent micromanagement) and deserve full credit for the win.

Sun Tzu Wu
Click to expand...

assuming we win... If everything goes perfectly T136 is probably good enough for the win, but I don't think T156 will be.
 
We can't gift Shaka a spear to defend GhostTown with because we won't have open borders with him.


I now think that giving Shaka GhostTown T114 for peace is best.

When to make peace between Shaka and Hamma to save GhostTown from Hamma's clutches is a tougher question. It will depend on the beg being successful or not, whether there are roads in the forests near GhostTown, and where Hamma's chariots are.

We can offer Shaka Theology to make peace with Hamma. If he won't accept, we can offer Hamma Theology+Metal Casting. Will Hamma still accept peace if Hamma can threaten GhostTown with a chariot T115?

If Hamma takes GhostTown before Shaka joins our holy war vs. Liz, then Shaka won't be compelled to join and we won't get open borders with him.


**Edit** DanF pointed out that giving GhostTown to Shaka first will likely raise the price of peace between Shaka and GhostTown. Theology to Shaka for peace between him and Hammu seems unlikely.
 
Surely we will not be able to play this all in one turnset. Can we play 3-4 turns and see what develops? We can make our decision on how to proceed with declarations, begs, and bribes better at T111 to T112. I would want to stop at a point where our PPP will be minimally affected and not committing us to any particular action.
 
shulec said:
Surely we will not be able to play this all in one turnset. Can we play 3-4 turns and see what develops? We can make our decision on how to proceed with declarations, begs, and bribes better at T111 to T112. I would want to stop at a point where our PPP will be minimally affected and not committing us to any particular action.
Click to expand...

I was thinking stopping and uploading at the start of T114 since so much happens that turn.

However, the first point of no return occurs at T111. The city gift to Hatsegawa eliminates the Holy War versus Shaka option T115 because she does not know him. I could maybe play the first two turns without commiting us to anything except 40 :espionage: vs. Liz.
 
If things go well, I'd like to see Kaitzilla do all of it. Of course he will stop if there are problems.

Time is running a bit short especially if things go poorly, so I'm all in favor of letting Kaitzilla play to his PPP.

Ideally he will be able to consult, but we just can't play 3 turns, debate for 3 days, play 3 turns, etc.

I think we have done a good job anticipating and dealing with challenges. So I have my fingers crossed for a limited to no stopping turnset.
 
WastinTime said:
Critical error:
Someone may have to fact check me, but I'm 99% sure on this:

We currently have a peace agreement with Hamm (peace t103). If we beg for 10 gold it won't renew this agreement. The agreement will still expire (t114?) and we could get the Hamm war. We could beg on t114, but we will already be at war with Liz and there is still the risk of Hamm DoW. I think we need to maintain the Hamm-Shaka war until at least 114 when we re-new the peace agreement.
Click to expand...

So I set up the game on my mac at work (:blush:) and tested this.

If you beg gold from someone you already have a peace treaty with, you form a 2nd peace treaty that will be canceled 10 turns after the beg.

The 2 peace treaties will end exactly as if you had just one of them. So if we beg gold on t110 we are safe from a DoW from Hammuragawa until t120 regardless of when our 1st peace treaty expires.

In my test I declared war on an AI, made peace, liberated a bunch of cities to get pleased again, then begged 5 gold from them. I had 2 peace treaties with them. I ended turns until the first peace treaty expired and the 2nd one stuck around.
 
bcool said:
So I set up the game on my mac at work (:blush:) and tested this.

If you beg gold from someone you already have a peace treaty with, you form a 2nd peace treaty that will be canceled 10 turns after the beg.

The 2 peace treaties will end exactly as if you had just one of them. So if we beg gold on t110 we are safe from a DoW from Hammuragawa until t120 regardless of when our 1st peace treaty expires.

In my test I declared war on an AI, made peace, liberated a bunch of cities to get pleased again, then begged 5 gold from them. I had 2 peace treaties with them. I ended turns until the first peace treaty expired and the 2nd one stuck around.
Click to expand...

It looks like the 2nd peace treaty stays in effect since it can't be canceled, but canceling the first one also seems to enable war again, so it is a false comfort. We should probably stick to canceling the first peace treaty and attempting the beg T113 or T114.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot1262.jpg


Gah! I pine for simple :hammer::hammer::hammer:

My traditional diplomacy is "would you like to surrender?!"


I will look over my practice game again. I would like to start play in 3.5 hours unless there are objections and will play T109-T113. I will upload at the start of T114.
 
Sun Tzu Wu said:
Agree with revised PPP. We may need to bribe Hammuragawa out of Theocracy for the RL DV vote, so we can convert several of his cities to Hinduism to ensure enough votes for the win. Also need to convert his State Religion to Hinduism to double the votes (via Espionage).

Despite our manipulation of TAP, RL DV is no more imbalanced that any other victory condition, especially the SGOTM-15 setup. We are working very hard (good grand strategy; excellent micromanagement) and deserve full credit for the win.

Sun Tzu Wu
Click to expand...

I think we are trying to win while being the only Hindu civ so we don't have a voting opponent. The Toku's all seem to love each other very much.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Nizef
  • Sticky
TSG 271 Annoucement
Replies
15
Views
1K
Bol
B
T
  • Sticky
6otm197 AAR
Replies
4
Views
1K
whynotnuke
W
kcd_swede
[BTS] BOTM 291: Louis XIV, Prince - First Spoiler - 1AD
Replies
14
Views
940
MarleysGh0st
MarleysGh0st
Eyswein
  • Sticky
6otM195 Announcement
Replies
0
Views
712
Eyswein
Eyswein
kcd_swede
[BTS] BOTM 294: Sitting Bull, Deity - First spoiler to 1AD
Replies
3
Views
542
NickTrofimuk
N
Back
Top Bottom