SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

bcool said:
So I set up the game on my mac at work :)blush:) and tested this.

If you beg gold from someone you already have a peace treaty with, you form a 2nd peace treaty that will be canceled 10 turns after the beg.

The 2 peace treaties will end exactly as if you had just one of them. So if we beg gold on t110 we are safe from a DoW from Hammuragawa until t120 regardless of when our 1st peace treaty expires.

In my test I declared war on an AI, made peace, liberated a bunch of cities to get pleased again, then begged 5 gold from them. I had 2 peace treaties with them. I ended turns until the first peace treaty expired and the 2nd one stuck around.
Click to expand...

I know for a fact that this happened to me. I'll try to test and figure out what conditions allowed the AI to cancel peace a couple turns after begging for gold.

Maybe they can cancel the deal, but just didn't in your test. I'm glad to hear Kaitzilla is going to try not to overlap the peaces anyway just to be safe.
 
WastinTime said:
I know for a fact that this happened to me. I'll try to test and figure out what conditions allowed the AI to cancel peace a couple turns after begging for gold.

Maybe they can cancel the deal, but just didn't in your test. I'm glad to hear Kaitzilla is going to try not to overlap the peaces anyway just to be safe.
Click to expand...

Kaitzilla already did the test and I confirmed it. The 2nd 10 turn peace treaty can be cancelled by you for unknown reasons if you already had a peace treaty with them when you got the 2nd peace treaty.

So if you can declare war on them despite the peace treaty presumably they can do the same to you. Must be a bug of some kind.
 
Playing in 1 hour. Playing now.

T109 - Founded and (Liberated) BabsTown to Hamma. He is now pleased and will not trade for Code of Laws as expected. Trade our crabs for his clams so now 4 resources going to him. Gifted Ghenghisgawa stone so 2 resources now flowing to him. Gifted Tokugawa Polytheism+Monotheism+Theocracy. He doesn't like us enough to change civics for us, and the option is Organized Religion anyway. Hopefully the double war will make him change naturally. Possible Liberation spot 4N of Babylon is a no go as it is covered in Hamma culture. Akkad 3N3E of Babylon and has Shaka culture pressure to the north and east.

T110 - Tokugawa adopts Theocracy. Parthenon built in a far away land. Traded Monotheism to Hamma for 20 gold.

T111 - Stole the corn tile. Toku has 5 unit stack 1E of corn. (Liberated) Hindu HatsTown to Hatsegawa who is now +4 relations. Toku's waterway east of his capital dead ends into mountains. Hamma's waterway to the north also dead ends into a strip of ice blocks. They are 6N1E,7N1E, and 8N1E of Babylon with ocean surrounding. Hammsville founded.

Hmm, there is an unimproved bronze outside of Akkad's BFC that could allow a ship to sail around the ice if it were forted. Hopefully Hamma forts it some day to open a sea passage through. Sending Ferry back home to save maintenance.

T112 - No events. LizTown founded, and Liz appears willing to take it off our hands when we wish. So Currency double steal event T114 will happen if she is still willing to take it T113.

Cooke the lead scouting axeman walked on the hilltop city Borsippa 4N1E of GhostTown. Two CGII Bowman and a combat I sword are guarding it against a Shaka stack of 1 cata,1sword,2axe,1chariot,1impi,1archer. He has found the front lines, hopefully doesn't die. One tilewide strip of land connects Shaka to Hamma looks like.

T113 - Tokugawa completed Hanging Gardens. His Hindu pop is about equal to his Buddist pop now I think. Liz is 2 turns from completing Machinery. Debating on letting Cooke help defend Borsippa if it gets attacked. Border Pop in GhostTown gave us -1 tensions with Hamma.

Gifted Liz LizTown.

T114 - No events. Hamma weakened Borsippa further to reinforce his stack of doom now 2 turns from Borsippa. Hamma also put a chariot in the perfect spot to snatch GhostTown T115 if we give it to Shaka now :'( Uploading.
 
I was not a big fan of giving away all that tech for nothing. I guess it's good he switched to Theocracy at least.

Can we still get him to close borders with Hats if we want to? I thought we were going to ask for that in trade for some of that tech?
 
WastinTime said:
I was not a big fan of giving away all that tech for nothing. I guess it's good he switched to Theocracy at least.

Can we still get him to close borders with Hats if we want to? I thought we were going to ask for that in trade for some of that tech?
Click to expand...


I didn't want to antagonize Hatsegawa with -2 you organized a trade embargo against us! since she is +4 with us. I'm still hoping for a demand from her. If she does dec us, Toku willing still probably be will to trade embargo her. Toku appears to still be willing to for Metal Casting+Priesthood+Meditation.
 
I think we only close borders between Toku and Hatsegawa if she declares on us.

Pretty sure that you can not build a fort on another players tiles (unless you are in a permanent alliance) testing..

Tested. You can not build a fort in a rival's territory.
 
The only thing we can trade Hatsegawa to close borders is Theology, which probably won't be enough. While we still have 3 techs over Toku, we have a window to make him trade embargo her. Is it something we really want to do? Trade embargos are something I don't have much experience with.
 
bcool said:
I think we only close borders between Toku and Hatsegawa if she declares on us.

Pretty sure that you can not build a fort on another players tiles (unless you are in a permanent alliance) testing..

Tested. You can not build a fort in a rival's territory.
Click to expand...

Ya, I think we should only close borders with toku and hatse if she decs also.

Boo, I guess Hamma will get around to it eventually since copper is a nice resource ouside his BFC, but who knows how long that will take.

I will pause on the Threshold of ending T111 while we think the trade embargo over.
 
Okay so the thinking is if we close borders between Hatsegawa and Toku then she won't be bribed into war with us? Or that it will make it less likely?

Do we even know if the AI is smart enough (or the code has it) to understand that they can't reach us? I suspect that it doesn't.
 
At bc's request, I looked at the code. CvTeamAI::AI_declareWarTradeVal takes no consideration of accessibility in determining the size of the bribe required for the war. So Hatse can still be bribed in regardless of her status of OB with Toku.
 
I don't think we need to pause here. The trade embargo doesn't have to happen until we are ready to declare war.
 
mabraham said:
At bc's request, I looked at the code. CvTeamAI::AI_declareWarTradeVal takes no consideration of accessibility in determining the size of the bribe required for the war.
Click to expand...

ok, so that's the cost of the bribe, but could it turn off the war option completely by triggering: "we'd have nothing to gain" or something?
 
WastinTime said:
ok, so that's the cost of the bribe, but could it turn off the war option completely by triggering: "we'd have nothing to gain" or something?
Click to expand...

CvTeamAI::AI_declareWarTrade can only result in DENIAL_NO_GAIN if we are too powerful (whose size depends on whether we are a land target, which relates to having nearby cities, not a land route). The other denials don't consider land routes at all.

So I'd say Hatse-Toku OB has nothing to do with whether she can be bribed to war with us, but I haven't done an exhaustive study.
 
thanks. I really appreciate you looking into it. It was my crazy thought, so I should be doing the legwork....(but y'all are so good at it!)
 
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