SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

Looks like we have a quorum on green so you may proceed, Trys! Please consider my comments in post1076, though. Regarding peace with Toku, let's hold off for now (unless you can squeeze a tech out of him? I'd probably take Alphabet over IW, but use your judgement). Feel free to discuss more, of course, but I think we're good to go.

Sounds like decision has been made but are we that concerned with Hammy stack to give a good tech for peace? Are we planning to divert troops from the north to the south? Do we not think that 3 Cats can inflict enough damage for the troops the take out the stack? Or do we just not want war on two fronts?

SteelHorse said:

Sounds like decision has been made but are we that concerned with Hammy stack to give a good tech for peace? Are we planning to divert troops from the north to the south? Do we not think that 3 Cats can inflict enough damage for the troops the take out the stack? Or do we just not want war on two fronts?

Click to expand...

Good questions. We've kind of neglected that issue. AAA suggested that we get peace to preserve our forces so that we can later sally forth and smack Hammy--better to hit him in his cities than defend our own, and Vijay is not a very good place to defend. That idea was adopted by default because no subsequent posters disagreed. I think it's probably correct, since we're very likely looking at war with Hatty. We should be able to hold Kyoto pretty well, but we're not sure of that yet. If it's hard, we won't be able to spare the units to fight on two fronts. If it's easy, we should probably take advantage of that security to build up our economy (techs and units) before taking on Hammy--when we do, we need to hit him hard and neutralize him quickly, and be sure that we're safe in the east before we go shifting lots of troops up north.

Hammy can hit Vijay with 4 HAs and 1 chariot next turn. We have walls (50%) and fortified units but only 1 spear. Yes, we can probably hold him off with minimal losses, but archers are not a good "investment" when we know we need to attack Hammy in the near future. Better to build more offensive units and get a better kill ratio. In the east, it's sort of the opposite: We'll get a better kill ratio on defense because of the terrain. I'm babbling. I think Trys is still good to go. But if he decides the price for peace with Hammy is too high, I don't think anyone will object to staying at war with Hammy for another turn.

kcd_swede said:

One other thing I'd like for you to do. Get Hatty on the phone. Tell her we demand 10 gold in tribute. He'll probably refuse - but the -1 diplo hit there isn't much to worry about at this point compared to -6 this war spoils our relation. It can't affect his war target in any case. In the unlikely event that he accepts, we will have 10t forced peace during which he cannot declare war on us. That would change the entire complexion of the next turnset.

Definitely worth a shot, imo.

Click to expand...

I followed Xcal's recommended sequence of events, so I tried this first:



But no dice:



He will take our extra gold if we want to make this deal (could probably shop around for more in exchange):



Edit: I almost forgot! We got peace from Hammy for CoL.

Xcalibrator said:

Looks like we have a quorum on green so you may proceed, Trys! Please consider my comments in post1076, though. Regarding peace with Toku, let's hold off for now (unless you can squeeze a tech out of him? I'd probably take Alphabet over IW, but use your judgement). Feel free to discuss more, of course, but I think we're good to go.

Click to expand...

See if I can squeeze a tech out of him?



So do we have iron?



Everything else went according to the PPP. We founded Varanasi on the island and the worker started a pasture on the sheep hill. I put 1 turn into a granary there. I sent one of the workers near Pata to start mining the iron near Drona. I started an archer in Drona and a cat in Holy Cow as placeholders.

So I hit end turn and...



Thanks for letting me get a more satisfying end to my turnset! (one... more... turn...)

Upload log:



Autolog:



New save is uploaded.

Xcalibrator said:

Also, run artists in the island city and Kyoto. Oh, and if you're sure Toku can't get to Kyoto IBT, I see no point in leaving any unit to die defending it.

Click to expand...

Sorry Xcal - I missed the this part of your comments so I didn't start running artists in the island city or Kyoto yet. And the archer is still in Tokyo.

Hatty can't kill Toku without coming through our territory to reach Kagoshima. This leaves us time to infect Tokyo and gift it back to Toku (or maybe someone else ). Our first missionary can reach Tokyo in 2 turns. And having someone between Kyoto and Hatty might be a nice buffer.

I was quite sad to see iron so readily available to all those militant guys on the other teams. Reaffirms our conclusion that we are Spoon material if we try to beat them at their own game. But it also helps our game quite a bit.

Most of all I praise 'the powers that be' that there is a significant difference between Hatsheput and Hatshegawa personalities.

Now we have to take some time to figure out what to do with this boon. My first reaction is that when Toku asks us to join in a war against Hatty we laugh in his face, but when Hatty asks us to go to war against Toku, we do so with glee but not vigour.

Much to think about.

And great job Trystero, we were due for a good break.

Yep.

*smiles and yells calllleeed ittt*

Well this is just jim-dandy! We can infect Tokyo with Hinduism AND whip an Islamic missionary there to spread to our other cities, giving us 4 religions, which is plenty for a Culture win. If we can capture another city from Toku then we could gift Hindu-infected cities to both Toku and Hatty--3 down, only 7 to go toward a Religious win. More immediately, we need to fix things up north by smashing Hammy and somehow defending the presumed pass into Shakaland. Let's send a unit up there ASAP, even before a spy, to get a look--we should start a settler immediately for there. If it's too late, we can settle him on the fish/iron site. Heh, Bombay is going to be a killer production city with that iron and all those hills. Our commerce/research situation will improve but still be our limiting factor--gotta make a real plan for tech stealing and GP-bulbing.

Two quick notes:

1. I forgot (again!) to switch the artist in Holy Cow to a merchant or have it work a tile, so whoever's next needs to remember to change it (as I am apparently incapable of that).

2. The wheat farm N of Vijay (and the cottage, I think) were pillaged by Hammy. We need to remember to get that back online.

As I can't open save, can anyone kindly get a screenshot of N of Vijay, that shows what we can see up that way?

Thanks.

Wow! What a turn of events. Should see whether we can get Toku to flip to Hindu. Would be nice to have a trading partner.

Our economy sux. At the moment we're running breakeven at about 5%, so we're going to have to get creative in our research methods--the Tokus are running away from us. We'll need to steal techs, build beakers (and gold once we get Currency), and bulb Great People. We could try to butter up an AI or two and do a little tech trading, too. Shaka looks best in that regard: he has 6gpt we could get for our deer, he's only -1 relations with us, and we have 3 techs he wants (all best among the AI). Should we gift him CoL (or take his 40 gold) in the hopes of making him willing to trade other techs? What diplo status do we need for that with Tokus? Getting open borders with Shaka would open up some nice possibilities: trade routes, spreading Hinduism, maybe even convert him, foment discord among the Tokus... Ditto for the real Toku.

If all our cities built beakers we'd get 90 bpt. With growth and AP hammers we'll get more. We should immediately chop out temples and monasteries--we have quite a few forests left. I'd stay in Caste System for awhile so we can run artists to pop borders, and to run specs in general for bulbing. A Great Merchant will bulb Currency, Prophet Monarchy (and then ~60% of Divine Right for the Spiral Minaret), a Sci Philo, and an Artist Monarchy. I'm hoping we can steal or trade for Monarchy. After we grow and recover from whip unhappiness for awhile I think we should whip out some courthouses to reduce maintenance and give us more espi points. Drona could run a spy now. We'll also want some spies to explore territory and steal techs. Bolly has lots of production so it can build a lot of things without whipping (like a Chouse in 4 turns ).

We have 5 cities without Hinduism and 2 missionaries on the way so we need at least 3 more (and it would be good to have a spare or two ready for infection opportunities). We have 3 H temples and 1 H monastery--build those in all cities for the extra hammers; temples will pay off in less than 16 turns, monas in <26 turns. If we're not planning to keep Tokyo then we should pillage its surroundings to the ground ASAP. We could also send a unit north to do a little more exploring. Ditto N of Vijay, and let's start building a settler somewhere ASAP in case there's a choke point that hasn't been claimed--we can use it to settle the fish/iron site as a fallback.

My vague vision is to build H missionaries to spread to all our cities, then build temples everywhere, adding monasteries and Chouses when we can. Once our cities' happy caps, population, and production are bigger we build research and run specs. Before that we try to trade and steal techs, and birth GPs for bulbing. Great Artists would be best for a Culture win, but I don't think we'll have the luxury of running only artists--other GPs are needed to bulb techs and for Golden Ages. And if we don't do a better job of keeping up in tech we'll soon be in grave danger. Unless we can keep nearby Tokus off our back via clever religious diplomacy.

Edit: Oh yeah, and we want Paper to build the U of Sankore.

Xcalibrator said:

Our economy sux.

<snip>

Edit: Oh yeah, and we want Paper to build the U of Sankore.

Click to expand...

I think this is the key decision right now. We could continue toward Paper, but we have almost no commerce to support research. We'd need about 422 gold to tech Paper at 100% research in 4 turns. All our EPs are still focused on Toku, and we don't have many EPs against anyone else to support tech stealing.

If we switched to Currency, it would give us additional trade routes, allow us to sell techs, and build wealth. I think our economic situation is such that I am going to advocate switching to Currency, unless someone finds a quick path to Paper.

Edit: And if we are going for culture we'll need to go Aesthetics > Drama > Music soon. And we have about 1 month left.

vra379971 said:

As I can't open save, can anyone kindly get a screenshot of N of Vijay, that shows what we can see up that way?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Here you go:

SteelHorse said:

Wow! What a turn of events. Should see whether we can get Toku to flip to Hindu. Would be nice to have a trading partner.

Click to expand...

We need to give him a Hindu city first.

Trystero said:

Here you go:

Spoiler :

We need to give him a Hindu city first.

Click to expand...

Right.

I'd advocate taking Nippur, and razing it. Then, plant a city where those Hammy troops currently sit then two forts around it, or build three forts on those hills and stock them with defensive troops. That alone would hold the north.

if we think we can hold it, I'd keep Tokyo for cottaging...but really, all we truly need is Paper.

...and Currency would be good, unless we can manage to get the gold together somehow for Paper by trading.

vra379971 said:

I'd advocate taking Nippur, and razing it. .

Click to expand...

No city razing.

I suggest that whoever is next in the rotation read through the last 10 posts or so and outline what he would like to do. It will save a lot of time to discuss things in a more concrete way. It will also save a lot of time if the person knows that they will be playing the next set.

So who is up? (I guess I better go check XCal's update page )

I'm always Mr. Negative, so I'm going to be positive for a change.

I smell a medal here. Neil has made this game a horror for a military solution, which many teams are undoubtedly taking. And he has made the AP route very difficult, with a large potential for complete failure. But he has set up a cultural win as a good option. A great leader, all the resources you need, defend-able borders (if we can find the other choke point). And we have four religions. If we are one of the first to aim this way we may be in good shape.

Now if only our economy was working


Oh yes excellent job Try, very well played and superb luck - that's how you win games
A GSci will bulb paper

Trystero said:

I think this is the key decision right now. We could continue toward Paper, but we have almost no commerce to support research. We'd need about 422 gold to tech Paper at 100% research in 4 turns. All our EPs are still focused on Toku, and we don't have many EPs against anyone else to support tech stealing.

If we switched to Currency, it would give us additional trade routes, allow us to sell techs, and build wealth. I think our economic situation is such that I am going to advocate switching to Currency, unless someone finds a quick path to Paper.

Edit: And if we are going for culture we'll need to go Aesthetics > Drama > Music soon. And we have about 1 month left.

Click to expand...

I think all the AIs except Toku have Currency so we don't need it to sell techs or get resource trades. Another trade route in each city would be nice but it would probably only be worth 1gpt, so something like a net of +10gpt. Being able to build gold is a little more efficient than building research, but not a big deal. Paper requires 1.5x as many beakers as Currency, but we have a small down payment on the former. It's a gamble but I think we've got to go for Paper and UofSankore; the beaker and culture gains are big. Getting Divine Right and the Spiral Minaret will be harder but we need to aim for that, too.

I think it's too late for the 1000-year double-culture bonus to be useful on anything but temples and a few monasteries now because anything else will be built too late. [Edit: 800 AD is only 12 turns away, and we'll want to have won by 1800 or so, right?] That is, we'll want theatres but I don't think there's a big rush for Drama. Music gives us cathedrals but we're quite a ways from building those--not enough temples or production. Aesth would be good for Nat'l and Heroic Epics, but Paper is more urgent--we're in a race for the UofS--and we might be able to steal or trade for Aesth. I think we can finish Paper in less than 10 turns by building research (average around 50 bpt?), running some scientists, and draining our bank account. Meanwhile we'll try to steal Monarchy from Toku to set up for Divine Right (ideally bulbing a good chunk of that with a Prophet). I don't think we can get a Great Sci in time for it to be useful for Paper (particularly given the mixed gene pool in Bolly) but it's worth studying. And we really do need to lay out a Great Person plan of some kind.

Of course, we'd really like MC and Machinery for Xbows and maces (or maybe Monarchy + Feud for LBs would suffice?) to establish a more stable equilibrium with Hammy, too. I think we can wait on that, though, if we build a few more spears and cats for Vijay. We need to lay the ground work for a Cultural win and bring our economy/research back to life first.

So who is up? (I guess I better go check XCal's update page )

Click to expand...

Good thing I updated the Game Report post yesterday.
Player Status:

• Deckhand
• High King J.J.
• Rusten -- Dead computer.
• ChrisShaffer.....(T0-14)
• Steelhorse..... .(T50-68)
• Xcalibrator.......(T21-33)(68-85)
• kcd_swede......(T85-104)
• AAA...............(T14-21)(104-121)
• Trystero..........(T33-50)(121-138) -- Just played

Last I recall, DH said he's going to be very busy through the end of the game (which is May 21). Haven't heard much from HKJJ, and nothing from Rusten. Chris? SH? kcd? I should have some time, but would need guidance on diplo stuff--trying to get somebody to trade techs and open borders, get the AI fighting among themselves, etc.

AAA said:

A GSci will bulb paper

Click to expand...

I keep forgetting that we are in CS. Pata is using the corn tile, but if we switched it back to Bollywood, we could run a lot of scientists there and quickly get a GS. That sounds like a good way to get to Paper fast. OK, I'm back on board.

I agree with Xcal, we need a Great Person plan.