Gods and Kings: 25K Research Agreements

snarzberry

Emperor
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
1,240
Location
New Zealand
Research Agreements in G&K are not working the way I thought they did. After playing a game today I realised that I was getting a lot more :c5science: from a late game RA than I expected. So I went back and did some tests.

What I thought happened with RAs is that you receive the sum of the last 8 turns of research, and this is buffed by 50% if you have PT and by another 50% if you have the Rationalism RA policy. These types of modifiers in civ 5 are usually additive, so I expected the amount of :c5science: that I would receive from a late game RA, with both of those buffs in place, would be 2 x the sum of my last 8 turns of research.

I was wrong. You get WAY more :c5science: than that.

Here's a game that I'm about to win by Science Victory and my last RA is going to come in one turn. My bpt is 859:c5science:. This rate was increasing gradually over the past 8 turns.

The amount of :c5science: I expected to get was roughly:

850 x 8 = 6800 modified by two 50% buffs to result in about 13 800:c5science:

The exact actual amount the RA produced was a colossal 24 065:c5science:!

This is almost double the expected amount, and no I didn't have 2 RAs fire. I went back and checked carefully and even reloaded to a previous turn to see another RA go off and see the results and it was also double the expected amount.

After this RA matured I bulbed a few GS and they each produced the expected 850 x 8 return of about 7000:c5science:

So either there is a modifier that I've forgotten about somewhere or the PT and Rationalsim policy are increasing the benefit from a RA to almost 4 x the sum of your last 8 turns of research.

This has implications towards the use of GS and bulbing v settling.




Screenshots, for those interested in the specifics.

This is the turn before the RA will fire. Nuclear Fission has 3364 beakers remaining to be researched.

Spoiler :


On the same turn, you can see my queue which after Nuclear Fission is completed runs into Advanced Ballistics and then to Satellites, both of which cost 8470 beakers.


Spoiler :


Next turn, RA fires and completes Nuclear Fission, Advanced Ballistics and following the rule of no more than 2 techs in one turn from a RA then fills up Satellites completely...

Spoiler :


... with an additional 3761 beakers as overflow.

Spoiler :


Next turn

Spoiler :
 
since you are Korea, any chance you built a science builing or wonder in your cap in the last 8 turns? that shouldn't do it anyway, but it was the only thing i could think of.

Even if the +50% were multiplied instead of added that would only be +125%, not 200%...
 
Definitely not a wonder, but I'm trying to remember when the research lab was built. I think it was well before then. Even so, the bonus that you from the korean UA wouldn't be added to your base rate for the calculation of RAs... if so it would be massive, being multiplied 8 times. So I don't think it can be that.
 
Waiting for this! I still wonder how RAs are calculated.
 
@ snarzberry
that actually could be it...bug perhaps? if the korean UA benefit was equal to 8 turns of research (since it's not subject to modifiers like RAs) then doubling the total of regular research plus Korean boost would come out to about 4x, no?
 
It could be a bug, need to check with a different civ. Surely it's not intended that a single RA can give you two and a half times the beakers of the most expensive techs...
 
The RA formula isn't the same as the GS bulb formula.

It's (v roughly):

a = your sum beakers over RA length
B = partners sum beakers over RA length

tech% = 50%+(PT = 25%)+(Rat=25%)

beakers gained = ( (a + b) / 6 ) * tech%

let's call a1, b1 the average bpt over the 30 turns:

So it breaks down to ~ (5a1 + 5b1) * % on standard speed.

but b can't be higher than a (so that you can't be OCC and gain massive beakers from the runaway), so max ((5a1+5b1)*%) = 10a1*%.

which roughly translates to 8600*1 = ~8600 beakers maximum in your case (so 1 tech at that point).

I don't think you can get to 25k beakers in a single RA (realistically) without a 2500 bpt and a partner that also has 2500 bpt (or unless the XML is changed so that the 6 is something else).

Do you have the save from the turn before the RA fires? If something is wonky with Korea, then it should get fixed (Korea also uses this formula for their UA).
 
The RA formula isn't the same as the GS bulb formula.

It's (v roughly):

a = your sum beakers over RA length
B = partners sum beakers over RA length

tech% = 50%+(PT = 25%)+(Rat=25%)

beakers gained = ( (a + b) / 6 ) * tech%

let's call a1, b1 the average bpt over the 30 turns:

So it breaks down to ~ (5a1 + 5b1) * % on standard speed.

but b can't be higher than a (so that you can't be OCC and gain massive beakers from the runaway), so max ((5a1+5b1)*%) = 10a1*%.

which roughly translates to 8600*1 = ~8600 beakers maximum in your case (so 1 tech at that point).

I don't think you can get to 25k beakers in a single RA (realistically) without a 2500 bpt and a partner that also has 2500 bpt (or unless the XML is changed so that the 6 is something else).

Do you have the save from the turn before the RA fires? If something is wonky with Korea, then it should get fixed (Korea also uses this formula for their UA).

Here's the save file, take a look and see if you can work out what's going on...
 
Unexpected amount of beakers from late game RAs with rationalism and PT ..

Noticed this effect my last game with the Mayans - Was waiting for the rationalism finisher (was a bit mistimed) ...Had already finished the space ship parts techs when a double RA hit me on the same turn ... And it trampled all the remaining techs (4-5 ?) :crazyeye: and put me at 1 turn for future tech ... Maybe I don't remember it right as it was very late and I was sleepy -> but the amount of beakers seemed a bit above my expectations ... I probably still have the autosaves - will check again when I get home ...

Had a bit over 1200 beakers per turn at the time ..

With Maddjinn's formula

2 * ((1200 * 30) + (1200 * 30)) / 6 = 24000 .. (but that is still only 12000 per RA)
 
I have also been confused by the RA outputs but have never paid close enough attention to the late game ones...

@ snarzberry
that actually could be it...bug perhaps? if the korean UA benefit was equal to 8 turns of research (since it's not subject to modifiers like RAs) then doubling the total of regular research plus Korean boost would come out to about 4x, no?

Can someone confirm this, that the PT and Rationalism do not affect the Korean UA?
 
Is it possible by any chance that the cumulative beakers from past 30 turns would include bulbs and/or RAs completing in that period ? And if so, it would make possible to get much more beakers out of RAs than the number of raw beakers would give.

Supposedly this shouldn't be the case but if there's a bug it would make sense to stack RAs & save bulbs close to those. By my own experience so far bulbing is yet surprise me by it's beaker count and RAs haven't produce such a massive amount that it had caught my eye.

G
 
With help of the In Game Editor(http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-436912.html), I tested whether MadDJinn's RA formula is accurate or not - and result shows his calculation is precise enough. Test data goes like this :

Standard speed, standard map size, emperor difficulty. With IGE, I gave Writing and Education to me and my partner and made a research agreement on turn 1.

My research (turns : beakers)
1~7 : 4
8~16 : 5
17~22 : 6
23~24 : 7 (pop +1 ruin)
25~30 : 9 (library)
total : 177

(total / 6 + partner total / 6) * 0.5 = RA produced

Note that partner total can't be larger than my total beaker, so formula goes

RA <= (total / 6 * 2) * 0.5 = total / 6

total / 6 : 29.5
RA produced surplus(total beaker gained - my turn beaker): 31
RA surplus with P.Tower : 46 ( ~ 31 * 1.5)
RA surplus with P.Tower + Policy : 63 (~ 31 * 2)
Great scientist on turn 30 : 69 ( ~ previous 8 turn beaker)

And producing great scientist beaker before RA has no effect on RA surplus.

Although there is 1~3 beaker difference, MadDjinn's formula is OK in big picture.

I also checked the save file snarzberry uploaded. In the save, RA gives 25K beakers as he said and his partner Ramkhamhaeng produces about 400 beakers per turn. So, assuming beakers were same in previous 30 turns, formula gives maximum (400 + 800) * 30 / 6 = 6000.

My guess is that the divide by 6 procedure has been broken for some reason.
 
Okay I've done some further testing in another game, this time with the Maya.

After looking at the formula MadDjinn posted I realized that the amount of beakers that I received in the Korean game was equal to my average bpt over the course of the RA multiplied by 30, or in other words equal to the total amount of beakers produced.

So if it's true that the intended mechanic is to bound the maximum science from a RA to 10 x your average beakers/turn from the preceding 30 turns then the game is currently giving 3 times too many.

Here's the proof that the equivalent is occuring with the Maya...




Rocketry has 1418 beakers remaining to be researched. My own bpt will account for 414, leaving 1004.

Spoiler :



My tech path after spending the 1004 beakers in Rocketry leads into Nuclear Fission for 6770 beakers and next into Combustion which costs 4510 beakers.

Spoiler :



Next turn the RA matures and pays off the 1004 for Rocketry, the 6770 for N. Fission and contributes 3542 beakers into Combustion.

Spoiler :




Do the addition and we get

1004 + 6770 + 3542 = 11 316 beakers

divided by 30 = 377.2, which would be my average beakers during the course of the RA.
 
With help of the In Game Editor(http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-436912.html), I tested whether MadDJinn's RA formula is accurate or not - and result shows his calculation is precise enough. Test data goes like this :

Standard speed, standard map size, emperor difficulty. With IGE, I gave Writing and Education to me and my partner and made a research agreement on turn 1.

My research (turns : beakers)
1~7 : 4
8~16 : 5
17~22 : 6
23~24 : 7 (pop +1 ruin)
25~30 : 9 (library)
total : 177

(total / 6 + partner total / 6) * 0.5 = RA produced

Note that partner total can't be larger than my total beaker, so formula goes

RA <= (total / 6 * 2) * 0.5 = total / 6

total / 6 : 29.5
RA produced surplus(total beaker gained - my turn beaker): 31
RA surplus with P.Tower : 46 ( ~ 31 * 1.5)
RA surplus with P.Tower + Policy : 63 (~ 31 * 2)
Great scientist on turn 30 : 69 ( ~ previous 8 turn beaker)

And producing great scientist beaker before RA has no effect on RA surplus.

Although there is 1~3 beaker difference, MadDjinn's formula is OK in big picture.

I also checked the save file snarzberry uploaded. In the save, RA gives 25K beakers as he said and his partner Ramkhamhaeng produces about 400 beakers per turn. So, assuming beakers were same in previous 30 turns, formula gives maximum (400 + 800) * 30 / 6 = 6000.

My guess is that the divide by 6 procedure has been broken for some reason.


Good stuff.

Weird... so in your test with Scientific Rev. and PT in place the RA gave 63 beakers. And yet I would predict that it would provide 177 beakers if the RA is functioning the same as in the two examples I've posted.

Did you actually run the test with the PT and SR or were you extrapolating?
 
Good stuff.

Weird... so in your test with Scientific Rev. and PT in place the RA gave 63 beakers. And yet I would predict that it would provide 177 beakers if the RA is functioning the same as in the two examples I've posted.

Did you actually run the test with the PT and SR or were you extrapolating?


It's real data with save/load. I used IGE to place PT and get SR.

Actually, without Editor, it is impossible to have Research Agreement in that early age. I will check it with my "real" game data later.
 
Good stuff.

Weird... so in your test with Scientific Rev. and PT in place the RA gave 63 beakers. And yet I would predict that it would provide 177 beakers if the RA is functioning the same as in the two examples I've posted.

you're not using a mod are you (have to ask)?

granted, I checked your file and got the same thing as you did.

I'll have to check some RAs that have recently popped in my game, but yeah I agree something is a little off there.
 
This forum member experienced a really weird late-game RA bug:

So many RAs popped right at the end that I think I may have bugged the game's research engine. The last 9 techs that I researched were all 1 turn researches, and the first 9 or so future techs were 1 turn as well (plus a couple more future techs from finishing Rationalism). Then a future tech came in that stated 185 turns to research and that i had -57000 beakers researched on it so far.
 
Top Bottom