Sengoku-mod - Fedual Japan mod preview/test

Probably you missed this, I was still editing my post when you answered it:

AbsintheRed said:

I think there is something wrong with your first city's cultural expansion. Maybe it only happens with a conquered city, not really sure. But instead of getting all the BFF of the city, it only expands a couple tiles

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It only happened once in both of my games, when one of my conquered cities first reached a cultural expansion
(not necessary the first I conquered, but the first to expand from the the conquered ones)
Attached a couple pics

AbsintheRed said:

I was asking if there are any other base vassal rule changes planned
IE: cancelling or "trading" vassals somehow.. it always bugged me that vassals are that permanent in vanilla BtS
IMO it would fit nicely in the scope of the mod, and into your already changed vassal concept

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Well, apart from human vassals I guess that's it... Trading vassals doesn't have any ground but cancelling them could be great indeed. Realistically the master would simply strip his vassal from his lands, and the vassal could comply or rebel. This could incur big honor loss when attempted. I'll try that, thanks

I think there is something wrong with your first city's cultural expansion. Maybe it only happens with a conquered city, not really sure. But instead of getting all the BFF of the city, it only expands a couple tiles

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I did miss this. There's several things going on here that were unexplained:
- influence spreads with province borders, or rather, if the plot province is different than that of the city, the culture will count as half as normal;
- half of city and BFC plot culture is converted to the conqueror upon conquest, or 1/4 if the plot is in another province; this is more realistic than working on "culture", given the circumstances

Does that explain what you saw?

EDIT: OK, I saw the second post, not sure what is wrong still. Isn't the culture fledling, i.e. range 1? That would be correct to have 3x3 borders, or am I missing something?

embryodead said:

Well, apart from human vassals I guess that's it... Trading vassals doesn't have any ground but cancelling them could be great indeed. Realistically the master would simply strip his vassal from his lands, and the vassal could comply or rebel. This could incur big honor loss when attempted. I'll try that, thanks

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Yeah, trading vassals doesn't sound realistic on second thought
But the other part sounds great, would love to see that implemented!

I did miss this. There's several things going on here that were unexplained:
- influence spreads with province borders, or rather, if the plot province is different than that of the city, the culture will count as half as normal;
- half of city and BFC plot culture is converted to the conqueror upon conquest, or 1/4 if the plot is in another province; this is more realistic than working on "culture", given the circumstances

Does that explain what you saw?

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Similar mechanics are known for me from RFC mods
But no, it doesn't explain it

EDIT: OK, I saw the second post, not sure what is wrong still. Isn't the culture fledling, i.e. range 1?

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EDIT: No, culture is 47 in the city
Should be in range 2 for quite a couple turns now
(did the screenshot rather late)

Btw, it did expand a couple tiles southwards when reached 20
IIRC it was very similar in my Miyoshi game, strangely it (the first city) expanded a couple tiles, but not to it's full BFC

Culture needed for every level is 2x of normal. So 20 is culture needed for fledgling, and 200 for developing. But yeah, should be range 2 at 47. I think I understand what's wrong now, though I don't know why this would happen.
EDIT: May be the case of +1 culture cut in half and thus rounded down to 0...

Sorry for spamming your thread with so many posts
But another thing that came to my mind while playing:
Maybe it would feel more natural if you based the Honor reduction from war declarations on diplomatic relations

AFAIK currently it's 0.5 for each of the civs, no matter what
Maybe it would be better, if it would be higher if you have great relations with the given clan, and lower if you have bad relations with it
Something like 0.1 if Furious, 0.3 if Annoyed, 0.5 if Cautious, 0.7 if Pleased, 0.9 if Friendly

Obviously it would mean that declaring war on some of the competing clans will always "cost" low in Honor, while declaring on the pro-unification ones will "cost" you much more Honor points
At least when you are already powerful enough (high Fame)
But I don't think it would be irrealistic at all, on the contrary
It would embrace the play with Honor even more, while keeping it intuitive

embryodead said:

EDIT: May be the case of +1 culture cut in half and thus rounded down to 0...

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Might be
Tested it, and the culture normally expanded (to full BFC) 1 turn after I built another culture giving building

Civciv5 said:

"GFC Errror: Failed to initialize primary control theme"
I keep getting this, no matter where I place it.

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Got this too. SVN names the folder "Sengoku-mod" and you have to rename as Embryodead stated.

But otherwise it looks great!

AbsintheRed said:

Might be
Tested it, and the culture normally expanded (to full BFC) 1 turn after I built another culture giving building

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Fixed, thanks. It was the rounding error which was happening when culture was only +1.

AbsintheRed said:

Sorry for spamming your thread with so many posts
But another thing that came to my mind while playing:
Maybe it would feel more natural if you based the Honor reduction from war declarations on diplomatic relations

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This kind of spam is welcome I like the idea but I'll make it less pronounced, maybe from 0.25 to 0.75.

Got to a seemingly infitie loop, savegame attached (still on revision 99)
Note that I made some minor WB changes during this game - mostly adding a couple additional roads - but I really doubt it's related to the loop

EDIT: It also happens if I vacate the city which the Uesugi plan to attack with the big stack
It even happens if I make peace with them, so it's probably not related to the stack (altough that was my first guess)

EDIT2: If I do a suicide attack and manage to kill a couple units in his stack, the game continues
So there is a good chance it is related to the stack after all

Thanks, I'll debug it. BTW Current revision is save-compatible with 99, but it won't fix that.

EDIT: Not good, freezes in assembly. Not related to the stack, because it freezes during Nihonmatsu turn.
Attacking the stack changes the random seed, which makes AI do something else. That may take a while...

Nice game... technically you have won long time ago, but decided to continue? You don't seem to like vassals

embryodead said:

Thanks, I'll debug it. BTW Current revision is save-compatible with 99, but it won't fix that.

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Ohh, I thought when there are dll changes it cannot be compatible
Thanks!

EDIT: Not good, freezes in assembly. Not related to the stack, because it freezes during Nihonmatsu turn.
Attacking the stack changes the random seed, which makes AI do something else. That may take a while...

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:/
I'm not too good at debugging, unfortunately cannot help you more...
Will post if I notice something strange, or if it appears in another turn too

Nice game... technically you have won long time ago, but decided to continue? You don't seem to like vassals

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Yeah, I decided to win without vassals, and take all the territory I can
I even cancelled my only vassal agreement in WB
So yeah, I kinda cheated, but a fun game nevertheless

Not sure if this helps
But here is it again from 6 turns later

EDIT: Played another 50+ turns, and no more loops
The only thing I noticed and might be related to it: Nihonmatsu stopped being a vassal a couple turns after this save

Also, I think it's not intentional, probably a small mistake on the map:
The Ceramics resource near Suzu (province Noto) is on forest
So it cannot be improved with a workshop, only with a fort

EDIT: Another small thing, also not sure if it's a mistake:
A general called Uesugi Kagetora switched side after I defeted him
I know he is not an actual leader to the Uesugi Clan, but still felt a little strange

embryodead said:

This kind of spam is welcome

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I'll take this as an excuse to pile on some more


By the way, could you possibly make a victory condition aside "become Shogun"?
Most warlords wanted to "restore" the Ashikaga and some (like Nobunaga or Hideyoshi) wanted something else.


EDIT:
I'm also seeing a bug where the game just "Waits for other players" for eternity after ending a turn, at 1556 as Ichijo and 1560 as Shimazu. Do you need saves or logs?

AbsintheRed said:

Ohh, I thought when there are dll changes it cannot be compatible

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Depends on the changes... adding new data that has to be stored in the savegame breaks it, but recent changes are just fixes/tweaks to AI and Honor.

I'm not too good at debugging, unfortunately cannot help you more...
Will post if I notice something strange, or if it appears in another turn too

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It's fixed now, so thanks again. Nihonmatsu unit got stuck in infite loop, looking for a plot to defend. Not sure why, but now it skips a move if this happens.

AbsintheRed said:

Also, I think it's not intentional, probably a small mistake on the map:
The Ceramics resource near Suzu (province Noto) is on forest
So it cannot be improved with a workshop, only with a fort

Click to expand...

Fixed (workshops can be built in forest now).

EDIT: Another small thing, also not sure if it's a mistake:
A general called Uesugi Kagetora switched side after I defeted him
I know he is not an actual leader to the Uesugi Clan, but still felt a little strange

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That is perfectly fine, samurai betrayed their lords, even clans, changed their names etc. Usually clan members automatically start with "Honor" promotion, so they won't betray their clans, but Kagetora was originally from Hojo clan; he was adopted by Uesugi Kenshin, and later defeated by Uesugi Kagekatsu... given that he was disinherited, his betrayal wasn't out of place at all

Osakasayama said:

I'm also seeing a bug where the game just "Waits for other players" for eternity after ending a turn, at 1556 as Ichijo and 1560 as Shimazu. Do you need saves or logs?

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Yes, please (saves only). It's possible that it's the same bug that AbsintheRed got, and it's fixed now*, but I'd like to be sure. (I'll reply to the rest of your post later)

EDIT: what I mean is if you update to the latest SVN version, you may find it's OK

Looks interesting!
I'll definetly try this out!

Osakasayama said:

1. Nagashima should be in Ise, not Owari.

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Changed it now, thanks.

2. In the diplomacy text, "Konnichiwa" and "~san" is too informal and modern... By the way Daimyos should call each other "(Family name or Political title)~dono".

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Konnichiwa and ~san come from Civ4 (that's what Tokugawa says). If it's bad - OK, but if there's no replacement I can only use plain English instead.

I'll look at ~dono but it's unlikely to work because replies are universal, so if you were playing Ikki you'd see "Ikko-ikki-dono" / "Iga Sokoku Ikki-dono" or at best "Honganji-dono" / "Fujibayashi-dono" etc. I don't think these make sense (or do they?)

3. Wako shouldn't be used to refer to pirates in Japan. The modern term "Kaizoku" (Literary "Sea Bandit") was probably used back then.

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Even if wasn't used back then, Wako seems to be used as a historiographic term in English texts, also when referring to pirates from around Kyushu and Inland Sea. It's a well known term at least, immediately recognizable, so I'd like to stick to it for the ships at least.

I noticed that as Oda I can grant cities to "Toyotomi Hideyoshi" as a vassal when "Hashiba Hideyoshi" is present, but Hashiba still remains in Oda and Toyotomi is newly created separately.
Also, Hideyoshi should be Hashiba until 1586.

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Oops, that's fixed now, thanks. As for the name, it's not changed in a given year, but instead he changes his name when he receives or grabs land.

By the way, could you possibly make a victory condition aside "become Shogun"?
Most warlords wanted to "restore" the Ashikaga and some (like Nobunaga or Hideyoshi) wanted something else.

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Well, Mori for was status quo, but I'm sure if Uesugi or Takeda got the point of controlling 1/3 of Japan including Kinai, they wouldn't stop at that. Also, Toyotomi probably wouldn't arrange himself to become Kampaku/Taiko, if he could legally become a shogun. So I think the mechanics cover more cases.

But if I was to add something else, how would the victory conditions differ from the current ones?

EDIT: One idea would be a Vassal Victory - win as a vassal of Ashikaga shogunate; this could be coupled with the possibility of giving Kyoto to the Ashikaga, then working to increase its Legitimacy. Ashikaga would get +25% bonus to Legitimacy from a trait. Does that make any sense?

Playing as a vassal can be annoying though, since you have no control over your wars.

Updates since rev. 99 (save compatible for now):
- fixed the occasional game freeze issues
- added diminishing returns to Fame calculations (the higher the Fame, the slower it grows)
- changed vassals to no longer trigger alliance wars to fix recursive declarations when creating vassals
- changed honor loss for war declarations to depend on attitude (-0.25 to -0.75 instead of -0.5)
- fixed the bug with Nabeshima clan's flag and name not updating correctly
- fixed cultural borders expansion issue for cities producing exactly +1 culture
- fixed the vassal creation issue of Hashiba/Toyotomi Hideyoshi
- added civ requirement info to civic infos
- enabled Workshops to be built in Forests
- changed Nagashima's province to Ise
- updated some unit names & concepts section

Well, I downloaded the mod, renamed it Sengoku, put it in my BTS mods folder, but it doesnt work.. When I try to lad a map, it just crashes the game instead..:/