Sengoku-mod - Fedual Japan mod preview/test

I'm really having a hard time with this mod. Combat is difficult. I am not sure if I just don't understand the units or what, but I can't seem to have any success. There is so much defensive terrain, it is very difficult to dislodge any enemy from a position. I find most of my games turning into stalemates where the AI parks on a forested hill next to my city, unable to take the city, and I unable to dislodge them, or vice versa. Lots of building of units, some taking ten or more turns to build, that I will then have to sacrifice, needing two or three to one odds to win the battle. If I can get 30% odds in my favour that seems to be good odds! The worst part is while I am waiting for the something to happen, constant messages of all the exciting stuff happening around me are constantly teasing me.

The mod has so much to it and so much flavour but I am unable to enjoy any of it. Perhaps it is just me, but if so, can anyone help me learn how to play this mod so I can actually enjoy it?

jammerculture said:

I'm really having a hard time with this mod. Combat is difficult. I am not sure if I just don't understand the units or what, but I can't seem to have any success. There is so much defensive terrain, it is very difficult to dislodge any enemy from a position. I find most of my games turning into stalemates where the AI parks on a forested hill next to my city, unable to take the city, and I unable to dislodge them, or vice versa. Lots of building of units, some taking ten or more turns to build, that I will then have to sacrifice, needing two or three to one odds to win the battle. If I can get 30% odds in my favour that seems to be good odds! The worst part is while I am waiting for the something to happen, constant messages of all the exciting stuff happening around me are constantly teasing me.

The mod has so much to it and so much flavour but I am unable to enjoy any of it. Perhaps it is just me, but if so, can anyone help me learn how to play this mod so I can actually enjoy it?

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Well, one thing is that it's a beta, so it's not necessarily meant to be enjoyed, yet I do try to design mods to be difficult, but towards the final version I'd like to have balanced difficulty and gameplay.

Some did have some success and won, however, so it's certainly possible. My own recommendation for those having trouble with taking cities would be:

• Choose a clan with 3+, ideally 4+ stars. Clans with less stars are very difficult and not meant to win the game.
• Combine Way of the Samurai quest reward, your leader traits, and warlords to stack promotions. Some good warlord promotions for city taking are: Siege Expert I+II , Teppo Command II, Stealth I-II, Cloud Dragon (though they should not take precedence over ones like Vitality or Legendary Warrior). But if you're playing a clan with special focus you might be better off stacking on something else, i.e. cavalry with Takeda.
• Yari Samurai is generally the best unit for taking cities due to access to City Raider I-III promotions, although with proper promotion stacking Arquebusiers, Achers and Cavalry can also achieve 80%+ odds.
• Use spies, not necessarily to incite revolt, which only speeds things up, but to sabotage enemy units. This new, cheap espionage mission can damage any unit, e.g. you can select the best defender to soften it up before the attack. This bypasses all defense.
• In my experience it's good idea to liberally sacrifice Catapults and Yari Ashigaru, especially early on to get the good production cities. As you get more cities, units and spies it gets easier.

From your suggestions, Fire Arrows promotion sounds good as a limited bonus for archers in place of the infantry City Raider line, I think I'll add it. Still, while archers can be trained as siege units, infantry or teppos will usually do better.

About increased timeline, I'm kind of stuck at 6 turns per year, because the next step would be 12 turns per year... and that would double the game's length. It would be going from slightly too short to way too long IMO. Alternatively the calendar could be divided like in Civ games, though in such a scenario I'd rather avoid that (I'm talking about something like 6 turns / year till 1680 and 12 turns / year afterwards).

I'm on the other side as Jammerculture:
Really enjoyed that the mod isn't as easy as most UHVs in any of the RFC mods
Won both of my first two games, and they were kinda challenging
I could even imagine it being a little harder
I was with a 3 and a 4 star clan, will try with a 1 or a 2 star clan next time

PS: I would love to see new events and quests
Though I can imagine it's hard to find enough suitable historical references from the era

Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying the mod. Just a little frustrated with the combat. However, it seems like from your suggestions one of my suspicions is correct and I'm jumping the gun with city conquest. In other mods, you would typically use starting units to take some initial cities. However, what I'm hearing is that you need promotions and spies/siege units which would realistically push your conquests back a bunch of turns. I think another source of my frustration is that their doesn't appear to be any axeman or swordsman parallel units. This game is mostly archers and spears, which in typical civ and even SOI are the weaker units, not used for offense.

When I play again tonight I will try to be more patient, get some promotions against barbs and build up some more infrastructure before going after that first defended city.

I have tried Takeda, the yellow clan that starts with I, and Hojo. Hojo and yellow I guy have a better start but no neighbouring independent cities so your first conquest is against fortified archers and a Daimyo. Takeda has independents close by so you can use your initial units to get some quick cities.

Absinthe, who are you using that makes it so easy for you?

I played my first game with the Miyoshi clan, and it was very successful
(I'm an immortal+ player in vanilla civ though)

I'm going to have to try this out.

I liked the Sengoku scenario of Civ 3 and liked the older games of Nobunga's ambition which deals with this very time period.

I am also a fan of HoTK as well.

If the "generals" system works as you say it does, I wish a modder would take it up to bring it to a multi-era game of civ or even to the FfH2 Mods.

Will give you feedback after I try a few games!

Keep up the good work!

Well, I attempted to play this, but it seems my old machine just can't handle it.
Will have to wait for a new machine to try it out.

Will still keep an eye here though!

I think I got it. Yari Samurai with GG and promotions for withdrawal and city raider. The key is farming experience for your retainers and keeping them alive. Many cities can't really grow so I just use them to pump out Yari Ashigaru and mangonels to use as fodder. GG Yari Samurai crack the top defenders and heavy cavalry mop up. Now that I'm getting used to the different style of combat I am liking it more and more. I love that my armies aren't just nameless stacks anymore, once you get enough GG your units all have names and many different combinations of promotions form their GG.

I can't believe this is just a beta!!??!!??!! edead, your a madman.

I'm just starting to grasp all the intricacies you've built into this with the different take on GP's, and the diplomacy. You need to augment the mod's abilities to give you information about your enemies. There needs to be a way to click on the scoreboard and move the map to the factions territory. Also, you should be able to switch between info screens while negotiation windows are open. What I mean is when someone demands you cut contact with someone or go to war you need to be able to see who and where this person is and what the deals are, who their allies are, etc.

I haven't done anything with espionage yet. Next game I am going to take a different route and go with a daimyo with deception.

ok back to playing

Is the only way to build gun factory and other buildings with a GP? If so, I applaud you for enhancing the concept of a GP for this mod (actually even if not!).

Hey, I've been playing this mod lately, and I want to say that it's superb.
After HotK, I'm happy to see another Koei-esque historical mod around for Civ4.
Great work, embryodead!

I've been playing as the Chōsokabe (2-Star) and my campaign is going very swimmingly.
So I would say that you can reasonably win with a 1 or 2-Star clan.
The overall difficulty in this mod however, of starting in this scenario is mitigated if you happen to start in a corner or in an island, in my experience.
Even a 1 or 2-Star clan is easy so long as you start in Kyūshū, Shikoku or Hokkaido.
I play Emperor in vanilla BtS for reference.

Also, jammerculture, this is what you'll want to achieve for your Retainers:



I may write an AAR on this in the future.
That's how much I've enjoyed this so far.

Here are some of my current thoughts though:

1. I spent a Great Merchant to create a Rice Merchant in my capital, but I ended up losing -2 on my GPT.
I have one Rice resource. Rice Merchant, to my knowledge, grants 0.5+ Gold per Rice resource, but somehow, I lose 2GPT after building it.

2. Secondly, there doesn't seem to be much incentive to switch around in the Economy civics.
State Monopoly and Temple Economy are kind of underpowered and not worth running at the moment.
Provincial Markets are really the only way to go if only because of a lack of a better option and teching is not terribly important.

3. Also, minor quip, but Ohori Tsuruhime entered my service early on, and I was pleasantly surprised to hear a female voice file upon selecting the unit.
It changes back to a man though when she's attached to a unit...
But it's little things like this and the soundtrack + different sounds being played upon (city capture, negative event, etc.) really help with the immersion.

Folket said:

Constantly asked to join in wars. Perhasp you should make the chance they ask you to join thier wars ten times smaller. At the moment I get up to three requests a turn. I guess this is a function of there beeing so many clans and constant wars. Constant requests also damages my relations with the AI. Is the game designed so that you are expect to be at war with half the AI all the time?

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To answer the last question - yes. Sengoku jidai was a period of nearly constant war all over Japan. As for the chance to join war (and other requests/offers):
- it is greatly reduced
- it is limited by distance
- you can tell the AI to cease bothering you in Diplomacy

I find it hard to believe you really get 3 requests to join war per turn... I know it still happens much more often than in a 18-player game, but not that often

I had my ally with whom I had exhanged hostages declare on me at pleased. It felt really strange. He would die very soon with me taking one city and my vassal taking the other. Is this to be expected? Is it related to that I was his only land neighbour?

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Exchange hostages does not guarantee peace, it just helps maintaining it. It's quite effective but the AI is still capable of ruthlessly backstabbing you. Being his only neighbor could have been the deciding factor, since you were the only practical target for his expansion.

How well does the AI handle overseas wars?

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Not much better than in vanilla Civ4, I'm afraid. There are some minor tweaks from BBAI only. Improving it is possible but in distant future.

I have gotten two quests. First quest I got to chose a bonus but once I finished? the second quest nothing happened.

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What quest was that and what exactly did you do (i.e. what do you mean by finishing the quest, and what did you expect to happen that did not) ?

The minor damiyos are very weak. Is this by design so that you can win the game with any clan?

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Yes, they are meant to be weak, simply to be conquered by more prominent clans, human or AI.

The military options are not balanced and I do not think the AI handles it well. Personal retinue is horrible. You get xp bonus on some units that cost twice as much as other units and you get to pay twice as much for your army. I do not see that I would ever use that option unless I try to make a challange for myself. The only option is that an option that makes you build units with food. Food is not that plentyful while hammers are.

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I'll have to hear more opinions on this before making any changes. Personally sometimes I use Retinue civic early on (before gunpowder units are available) if playing with clans that have bonuses to Samurai units, to stack promotions and make a couple of Samurai super-units.

Some units says that they are levy units. I have search but been unable to find what effect that has.

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Levy units count as non-combat units for maintenance purposes. They will add to your Total Unit Maintenance, but not Military Unit Maintenance.

This is a really great mod I'm looking forward to continue playing my game. Thanks.

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I'm glad you like it and thanks for the feedback

jammerculture said:

I can't believe this is just a beta!!??!!??!! edead, your a madman.

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Thanks! I'll have to call it 1.0 soon or it will be another forever-beta like SoI, though

You need to augment the mod's abilities to give you information about your enemies. There needs to be a way to click on the scoreboard and move the map to the factions territory.

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Good idea, done (SVN). You can now shift-click on the leaderboard to send the camera to the leader's capital. It's not possible to make it work during negotations, however.

Also, you should be able to switch between info screens while negotiation windows are open. What I mean is when someone demands you cut contact with someone or go to war you need to be able to see who and where this person is and what the deals are, who their allies are, etc.

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EDIT: But this is already possible. You can switch to any info screen during negotations. Additionally, I've managed to enable Civilopedia during negotations. I may be able to implement some kind of an info screen that consolidates all info on a given clan (i.e. the one you are negotiating with? or maybe one chosen from a list?)

Is the only way to build gun factory and other buildings with a GP? If so, I applaud you for enhancing the concept of a GP for this mod (actually even if not!).

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Yes, each GP has a special GP-only building associated with them (it's nothing new, but I needed something to make up for the lack of Golden Age).

Tomorrow's Dawn said:

Hey, I've been playing this mod lately, and I want to say that it's superb.
After HotK, I'm happy to see another Koei-esque historical mod around for Civ4.
Great work, embryodead!

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Thanks!

1. I spent a Great Merchant to create a Rice Merchant in my capital, but I ended up losing -2 on my GPT.
I have one Rice resource. Rice Merchant, to my knowledge, grants 0.5+ Gold per Rice resource, but somehow, I lose 2GPT after building it.

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Just checked, it works fine. With 1 Rice there's no change. Maybe you lost that 2GPT somewhere else that turn? EDIT: Oh, I even know where. You've spent your Great Merchant, so you've lost its 3 GPT bonus. Notice that in this mod GPs cannot join cities, instead they provide a small bonus to city yield as long as they are alive. So you're better off keeping that merchant until you've got 4+ Rice.

2. Secondly, there doesn't seem to be much incentive to switch around in the Economy civics.
State Monopoly and Temple Economy are kind of underpowered and not worth running at the moment.
Provincial Markets are really the only way to go if only because of a lack of a better option and teching is not terribly important.

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Temple Economy is a special civic for ikko-ikki only. I think Foreign Trade can be useful for some Kyushu clans, but State Monopoly, yeah, it's of no use at this point. I'll think of something.

3. Also, minor quip, but Ohori Tsuruhime entered my service early on, and I was pleasantly surprised to hear a female voice file upon selecting the unit.
It changes back to a man though when she's attached to a unit...

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To me this is correct. If you attach a general to a unit, you control that unit, and it's that unit which speaks, not the general. There are some rare female units (Onna Bugeisha and Naginata Peasant), which have female voices.

embryodead said:

Good idea, done (SVN). You can now shift-click on the leaderboard to send the camera to the leader's capital. It's not possible to make it work during negotations, however.

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Great change!

EDIT: But this is already possible. You can switch to any info screen during negotations. Additionally, I've managed to enable Civilopedia during negotations. I may be able to implement some kind of an info screen that consolidates all info on a given clan (i.e. the one you are negotiating with? or maybe one chosen from a list?)

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Another good idea
I would do it with a list, as you won't always use that screen during peace negitations
Could be useful in the main game as well

I've finished a game as Oda. Great fun, well done! I like the retainer system.

I expanded to the west (Tokyo) first, and then to the east. It took me a while to find Tokyou on the map though



Sundered Realm didn't really give me much trouble, aside from some border harassment. And if you manage to consolidate your borders on one side (when starting on Kyushyu or in the north) it's probably even easier. Or maybe the AI just didn't have military access with my neighbours

Getting the three mints in one city is rather strong, though I didn't really get most out of it, because I had only limited access to precious metals, but it still made my capital a beast:

Maybe you could limit it to one mint per city?

Again, great job, it's mind-blowing how much work has been spent on this mod, and it's still in beta

I found a bug in one of the displays:



I would attach a save, but it apparently exceeds CFC's file size limit (the file is 2.35MB).

Osakasayama said:

Inn - Reqs Tea house, give trade bonuses?
Toll Gate - Increase espionage, kill trade. Should require "Temple Economy"
Sakaya/Dosou - Something like a Bank & Brewery added together. Also possibly cause anger/revolts
Moat - replacement for walls

Stone walls should require stone resources, since they were uncommon in Japan. (Still, Nobunaga dealt it by stealing stone from temples.)
Tea houses should require a late technology (Sadou, perhaps)
Also, shouldn't ninja houses require castles instead of teahouses?

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Toll Gate - I had them and removed them since they were of little use. Temple Economy is ikko-ikki only, so that would mean only ikko-ikki can use toll gates?

Sakaya/Dosou - I'm trying to understand what is this? A Sake brewery?

Moat - no more foritifications are needed

Stone Walls need Stone - OK!

A lot of buildings require castles. Ninja houses require tea houses in the same way as they do in Shogun 2: Total War; it's basically a line of commercial/espionage buildings.

WONDERS
53 Stops - Reqs X teahouses (or inns). Give trade or road bonuses.
Gasshou-zukuri - Reqs population fewer than X (if possible), since they were built in the mountains of Hida/Ecchu. Provide Silk and saltpeter(?).
Golden Teahouse - legitimacy bonus? (Hideyoshi invited the emperor to it.)
Yoshiwara - TONS of

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53 Stops - yeah, it could be added as a late game wonder; it could give trade bonus or maybe turn roads in nearby cities into paved roads.

Gasshou-zukuri - isn't that a style in architecture?

Golden Teahouse - possible

Yoshiwara - possible, though Minami-za already does the same thing, and comes at the same time.

I should add at least one of these in the next patch!

Is it possible to change city names when Azuchi castle is built? I've rarely seen it built in Omi.

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I don't think it makes sense to rename any city on the map to Azuchi based on a Wonder. The opposite would make more sense... the best solution would be to simply use a less location-specific name, but I don't know how to call Azuchi castle (or similar remarkable fortress) by generic name.

Toll Gate - I had them and removed them since they were of little use. Temple Economy is ikko-ikki only, so that would mean only ikko-ikki can use toll gates?

Sakaya/Dosou - I'm trying to understand what is this? A Sake brewery?

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1. On the other hand, I think Temple economy should be the starting civic for EVERYONE, except for warlords in Kyushu or the Seto sea area, who switched to foreign trade, and Saito, who had free trade.
Temples like Enryaku-ji were having income through Toll gates they set up on "Public" roads , and were controlling the city economy through monopolies and guilds. The "Sohei" was often used to maintain the monopoly, by raiding enemy merchants with force.
New warlords like the Oda needed to escape out of that dreadful civic, by learning techs.

I kinda agree with not including toll gates though. Toll gates wouldn't be usefull and "Border forts" do overlap its purpose.

2. "Dosou"s were money-lending and pawnbroking merchants in the Muromachi era. "Sakaya"s were sake breweries, but they often entered the Dosou business, from Muromachi to even Edo period Japan.
These merchants were guaranteed monopolies under both Ashikaga and Tokugawa Shogunates, and had quite a bit of power, although they often became despised targets of peasant Ikkis in both eras.

Gasshou-zukuri - isn't that a style in architecture?

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3. Yeah, it really is an architecture style, but it isn't common at all outside that Hida-Echuu area, so I used it to describe that UNESCO world heritage site.

I don't think it makes sense to rename any city on the map to Azuchi based on a Wonder. The opposite would make more sense... the best solution would be to simply use a less location-specific name, but I don't know how to call Azuchi castle (or similar remarkable fortress) by generic name.

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4. "Azuchi" is in fact a generic name for everyone. The name "Azuchi" 安土 comes from 平安楽土"peaceful paradice", and this is a comparison against the Kyoto court, whose official capital is Heian Kyo 平安京.
Nobunaga wouldn't have renamed the Rokkaku castle if he built Azuchi castle elsewhere; for example Osaka, which his predecessor Hideyoshi built his capital, but was under Hongan-ji during Nobu's time.

Yep, Can't wait to escape schoolwork and play those updates!

By the way, I feel awkward when Nobunaga sends an army of Buddhist Soheis against his enemies like Enryaku-ji and burns them down... Shouldn't they be limited by some religious civic?

Osakasayama said:

By the way, I feel awkward when Nobunaga sends an army of Buddhist Soheis against his enemies like Enryaku-ji and burns them down... Shouldn't they be limited by some religious civic?

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They should be a little bit better then in terms of innate ability
if they're going to be exclusive to one civic.
I've personally found the Sohei to be underwhelming and didn't
really build many of them except for the middle/late-early game.
But I agree with you in that the premise is absurd.

First iteration of Sengoku Diplomatic Advisor is available on SVN. It has to be separate from Foreign Advisor to properly display the minimap. This button that launches this advisor is right next to the Clan Advisor button.

Diplomatic Advisor can be launched at any time, also during negotiations. In that case, it will automatically select the player you are negotiating with.

The screen shows basic information about a clan and a minimap with your and the target clan's borders shown, as well as that clan's allies, vassals and overlords.

Also added Flaming Arrows and a few other things. WARNING: this set of updates is not save-compatible.

Wow, this is impressive! Will be very handy too. Great job!