Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

Actuarian said:

Here is a minor issue - you can build a rodent enclosure with a subdued wolverine.

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The alternitive is to have no enclosure for the wolverine at all. Perhaps even remove it. There are to many enclosures at the moment, most doing the same things.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

The alternitive is to have no enclosure for the wolverine at all. Perhaps even remove it. There are to many enclosures at the moment, most doing the same things.

Click to expand...

I don't think every animal needs to be associated with an enclosure. More importantly altough a wolverine might not mind being in a rodent enclosure because it would eat them, it is not a rodent. There has to be a more appropriate enclosure for it.

As far as the number of enclosures, I always thought you were picking the number of possible enclosures and the benefits assoicated with them to get the culture and happiness levels balanced. I think happiness is pretty easy to maintain right now so the enclosures aren't really needed much for that, but they are more useful for their culture value. Why don't you decide on the approprite number of enclosures and pick categories that are general enough so that every animal will fit. For example if 5 is the right number you could have

Large mammals
Small mammals
Birds
Amphibains and reptiles
Aquatic Life

If you don't like the proliferation of enclosures in every city one thing you could do is replace them with buildings that provide a small amount of gold, culture or happiness and provide "entertainment animal" class resources. These resources would give bonuses to carnival/zoo type buildings. That way people wouldn't need to cart around animals to cities without the resource - they could either build them with the animal or build them normally if they have the resource.

Here are some ideas on how to re-do the enclosures. Note they would be similar to diversity of myths.

Changes
- Bad Boys to "Crocodilian" - No more Hyena or Ratel just Crocs.
- Rodent - No wolverine requirment.
- Wolf to "Canine" - Since now there are more dogs like foxes included.
- Exotic Herbivores - Remove and make into the new groups below.

New
- Antelope - Gazelle, Bongo, Impala, Saiga, Gemsbok, Gerenuk
- Bovine - Bison, Water Buffalo, Aurochs
- Camel - Camel, Llama
- Deer - Caribou, Moose, Deer
- Equine - Horse, Zebra, Donkey
- Giraffe - Giraffe, Okapi
- Goat - Mouflon, Ibex, Muskox
- Hippo - Hippopotamus
- Pachyderm - Elephant, Mammoth
- Ratite - Ostrich, Emu, Rhea, Cassowary, Moa
- Rhino - White Rhino, Black Rhino, Indian Rhino, Java Rhino, Tapir
- Swine - Warthog, Wild Boar, Pig
- Weasel - Skunk, Wolverine, Ratel, Sea Otter, Badger

Note that if they were already in Exotic Herbivores they would not need to be anymore.

Can we pls get a NEW btn for the Alligator, it just looks like a white blotch with a few lines in it?? Besides i have never seen a "white" alligator??

@strategyonly

Here is the source image.

Also here is a white alligator. Note that most animals can be white due to albinism.

Maybe its just me but the Albino Crocodile button they have there looks like it'd be a bit more recognizable at our tiny low resolution, even if the color is a bit too white in general.

How about either of these??

I like the one on the left!

Hmm. I know this sounds picky but I have been trying to keep all the animal icons/buttons as illustrations rather than photos.

I will try to find a new one.

I don't think that's picky at all. I think its a good idea to maintain as much artistic integrity between various sources a possible. Just yesterday my wife was mentioning how the mod, being a hodgepodge of so many differing sources is suffering a bit from some discontinuity between artworks, particularly in the leaderheads. (Not much I think we can really do about that though.) But where we CAN do something about it, we probably should, yes.

Ok here we go. If someone could replace the old one with the new one please do so. Also here is the full source image if you want to take a peek. The icon/button just uses the head.

@Dancing Hoskuld

Also please do not forget about these ...

New
- Secretary Bird
- Caiman
- Opossum
- Armadillo
- Ethiopian Wolf
- Fennec Fox
- Arctic Fox
- Dingo
- Dhole
- Fruit Bat

Replacements
- Cheetah (Still think this is looks better)

Thanks!

On a side note since upgrading to Windows 7 I can't seem to get my 3D Studio Max 6 to work anymore. So the most I can get on new models is in NIFSkope. I also have Blender (which is free) but I am not too skilled with it.

Hydromancerx said:

On a side note since upgrading to Windows 7 I can't seem to get my 3D Studio Max 6 to work anymore. So the most I can get on new models is in NIFSkope. I also have Blender (which is free) but I am not too skilled with it.

Click to expand...

Make sure you have your UAC turn off or down, and run as admin.

Hydromancerx said:

@Dancing Hoskuld

Also please do not forget about these ...

New
- Secretary Bird
- Caiman
- Opossum
- Armadillo
- Ethiopian Wolf
- Fennec Fox
- Arctic Fox
- Dingo
- Dhole
- Fruit Bat

Replacements
- Cheetah (Still think this is looks better)

Thanks!

On a side note since upgrading to Windows 7 I can't seem to get my 3D Studio Max 6 to work anymore. So the most I can get on new models is in NIFSkope. I also have Blender (which is free) but I am not too skilled with it.

Click to expand...

With the exception of the cheetah they are all on my to do list. I am waiting for a fix for non standard maps like GEM where the right hand edge is not 180 degrees west. Dang! That means I will need to remove the spawn stuff I did for the Natural Wonders mod as they will be wrong for GEM.

An animated cheetah looks much better than an one which isn't animated.

strategyonly said:

Make sure you have your UAC turn off or down, and run as admin.

Click to expand...

When tryin to fix it I ran into this ...

Max 6 is not compatible with 7, its not even compatible with windows vista.

Click to expand...

I have it still installed from before but it won't run. When I try to install it fresh it will give an error and abort the installation. This really sucks since it was a legit copy I got when I was in school. Upgrading to a new version is way too expensive. I only got it before because i got a huge student discount.

Could you do a dual boot environment?

Hydromancerx said:

I have it still installed from before but it won't run. When I try to install it fresh it will give an error and abort the installation. This really sucks since it was a legit copy I got when I was in school. Upgrading to a new version is way too expensive. I only got it before because i got a huge student discount.

Click to expand...

Have you right clicked on the setup.exe and see what is there?

Or maybe this?
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/compatibility/win7/CompatCenter/Home?Language=en-US

Actuarian said:

I don't think every animal needs to be associated with an enclosure. More importantly altough a wolverine might not mind being in a rodent enclosure because it would eat them, it is not a rodent. There has to be a more appropriate enclosure for it.

As far as the number of enclosures, I always thought you were picking the number of possible enclosures and the benefits assoicated with them to get the culture and happiness levels balanced. I think happiness is pretty easy to maintain right now so the enclosures aren't really needed much for that, but they are more useful for their culture value. Why don't you decide on the approprite number of enclosures and pick categories that are general enough so that every animal will fit. For example if 5 is the right number you could have

Large mammals
Small mammals
Birds
Amphibains and reptiles
Aquatic Life

If you don't like the proliferation of enclosures in every city one thing you could do is replace them with buildings that provide a small amount of gold, culture or happiness and provide "entertainment animal" class resources. These resources would give bonuses to carnival/zoo type buildings. That way people wouldn't need to cart around animals to cities without the resource - they could either build them with the animal or build them normally if they have the resource.

Click to expand...

I have been reflecting on this in my recent games, and would like to suggest more to develop this.

I end up hoarding the animals through the early game, and then blowing them all when I get Trade. This feels... artificial. I also feel that by doing this I severely hamper my economy for the early game, but end up with excessive happiness/culture that simplifies that particular part of the game.

Suggestions:
- Add a national wonder - Travelling Carnival. Once build, this allows the existant animal cages to be built in that city. This would produce an animal resource (Carnival - Big Cat, Carnival - Exotic Herbivore) and give bonuses to Carnivals built elsewhere, similar to how the Music Hut behaves.

- To use up existing animals, allow them to be converted to primal paintings similar to how current enclosures/myths work. This would take over the Culture and XP aspects of current enclosures. They could also benefit from various set ups such as:
+5% culture with Sand
+5% culture with Cave Dwelling/+10% with Neanderthal Dwelling
+5% culture with Dye
+1% city food with Druidic Traditions
+1% city food with Shamanism

As an additional mechanic, Story Tellers could inscribe some less exotic ones (perhaps 4 most common ones) while they are active to be phased out at later stages.

EDIT: This could be attached to Petroglyphs technology to make it a LOT less of a transitional tech/beaker sink.

When you have a stock of subdued animals in a city waiting to add when buildings are produced, if your attacked they fight at full strength, often better than your early game defending unit!which feels kinda wrong, cannot all animals have a city defenses negative applied to stop you using them as military units?, or is this intended.

Hanny said:

When you have a stock of subdued animals in a city waiting to add when buildings are produced, if your attacked they fight at full strength, often better than your early game defending unit!which feels kinda wrong, cannot all animals have a city defenses negative applied to stop you using them as military units?, or is this intended.

Click to expand...

Good idea and no it was not intended. Just like a number of other issues people have brought up and I have fixed over time. Thanks, it is on my list.