Brave New World - LArge Empires & War Mongering

Gamgee said:

(snip)
Is there any way I can GET RID OF Brave New World and install Gods and Kings? (snip)

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I feel taking gold away from river tiles has hindered the gameplay and crippled one of the few good things Civ 5 had over its predecessors, that it was more lightweight, easier to teach, and quicker to play. The game hasn't added any NEW mechanics to award us with, but simply taken away and made it more complicated and frustrating.

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Gamgee said:

...
Is there any way I can GET RID OF Brave New World and install Gods and Kings? For me, and all of my friends sanity. It's just not fun with these additions.
...

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Byzantine Bomb said:

That video...I can feel your rage.
BURN THEM ALL!

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Loucypher said:

When your trade routes get insta-blown-up by DOW, AND you get consta-DOW'd for being a warmonger even if you're not an aggressor, I can only feel how silly stupid it is when you are a warmonger player trying to at least maintain ONE good relationship.

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Snuffleupagus said:

No one is underestimating, people are adjusting strategies. My playtime is limitted (compared to some people here) but here are some suggestions:

You have to take warmongering a bit slower, and be more careful about who and how you fight. And how you handle diplomacy. Some things I'd suggest:

1. try to go for wars teaming up with AI. every game that I've played so far the AI has tried to enlist me in several wars. Say yes to one of these and the diplomatic hit will be smaller.

2. you have to annex/occupy less cities. In G&K's the only thing limitting my annexation of cities was happiness, now it's happiness and research penalty, so burn more cities than you used to.

3. almost NEVER finish a civ off, there's no reason, when they are down to one crappy city they will not be a threat anymore, and more often that not some other warmonger AI will step in and finish them off (And take the diplomacy hit).

4. Try to make early friends with war mongers. This is probably tricky (as they may war you), but they will be more tolerant of war mongering. In my domination game I made friends with Ghengis Khan, and he was happy to be my buddy and trade me stuff while I burned Russia and Egypt and Greece to the ground.

5. USE the world Congress. Vote for someone other than yourself for world leader. Pick someone who is tolerant of war mongers and who you have a chance of making a solid trading partner.

6. Vote based 100% on impact on diplomacy, I found myself throwing a delegate in for resolutions I didn't want to pass, because they probably would pass anyway and this way I would get a diplomacy benefit with the civ who proposed it. As an extension, if you can make proposals, make one that everyone thinks is great.

7. liberate cities you might otherwise burn. although the AI's treatment of liberation appears to be really erratic... so I'm not sure this is that great.

8. boost your income from city connections. You can do this through policis, chitzen itza (conquer that city!) and by using internal trade routes to boost the population of your cities. In my domination game I was pulling a lot of income without trade routes (although I got lucky with a lot of copper to generate money in my capital)

9. When AI's are fighting eachother it will almost always be diplomatically advantageous to denounce one of them for the boost of diplo with the civs who hate that one.

I don't know what to tell you, you can't just stomp around the world and expect the AI to sit idly by. I really don't see why this is so upsetting to gameplay, I find that it makes the game WAY more enjoyable and interesting.

All of that said, I do think that BNW has made domination the most difficult victory to achieve. It's easier to get partway there and then switch to one of the others. As you get too many puppets your tech gets bogged down pretty badly, but the idea is to have too much momentum by then, so it's too late to stop you. It's no longer just build units and attack until overwhelming victory is achieved.

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Gabriel Pyyrhic said:

The not finishing off their last city thing will not work anymore as the rules have changed. There used to be a bigger penalty for conquering, now it is more city based IIRC. There will still be a hit diplomatically for taking another city, but it will not be the conquering penalty that existed prior to BNW. Please check out the warmonger mechanic thread on the BNW forums (Sorry cant provide link) it will provide you with more info and allow you to double check in case I am getting confused

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Snuffleupagus said:

I will check, I don't know for sure, but my understanding was that the penalty is still fairly significant as it is related to the number of cities they currently have. The penalty is lower if you take one city and they have 50 than if they have 10.

So if they only have 1 it should still be a significant penalty. But I should check this.

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Warmonger status is calculated per city now (declaring war still affects that score). Conquering civilizations no longer affects that score.

Keeping one AI civ alive doesn't spare you from warmongering penalty anymore.

The penalty for declaring war on a major/city-state has been halved to 2.5, and the penalty for conquering is gone.

If you recapture a city that used to belong to you, it doesn't affect your warmongering.

Liberating a city also reduces your warmongering penalty (with every other civ).

Happy mongering!


Warmonger penalty per city:

estimated_num_cities = 13 (Duel), 26 (Tiny), 39 (Small), 52 (Standard), 80 (Large), 132 (Huge)

total_num_cities = max(total number of cities current in the game, 1)

num_old_owner_cities = max(old owner's city count, 1)

warmonger change = (10 * estimated_num_cities) / (total_num_cities * num_old_owner_cities)

So if I take one of russia's cities and she has 20 cities on Standard, then I take a warmonger hit of (10 * 52) / (20 * 48) = .54. Compared that to the old 5 for declaring war on a major civilization (+10 for conquering).

Same goes for liberation, in reverse

Some notes:
•stronger warmonger hit for killing a city from a smaller civ than larger civ
•stronger liberation bonus for liberating a city from a smaller civ than larger civ
•declaring war gives a less hit on diplomacy (half)
•this seems awfully similar to my post a few weeks ago.

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/// Updates how much of a threat each player is to run amok and break everything
void CvDiplomacyAI::DoUpdateWarmongerThreats()
{
	ThreatTypes eThreatType;

	int iThreatValue;

	int iNumPlayersKilled;
	int iNumPlayersEver = GC.getGame().countCivPlayersEverAlive();
	int iPlayersKilledPercent;
	int iWarmongerMod;

	PlayerTypes eLoopPlayer;
	for(int iPlayerLoop = 0; iPlayerLoop < MAX_MAJOR_CIVS; iPlayerLoop++)
	{
		eLoopPlayer = (PlayerTypes) iPlayerLoop;

		if(IsPlayerValid(eLoopPlayer))
		{
			eThreatType = THREAT_NONE;
			iThreatValue = GetOtherPlayerWarmongerScore(eLoopPlayer);

			// Now do the final assessment
			if(iThreatValue >= /*200*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_CRITICAL_THRESHOLD())
				eThreatType = THREAT_CRITICAL;
			else if(iThreatValue >= /*150*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_SEVERE_THRESHOLD())
				eThreatType = THREAT_SEVERE;
			else if(iThreatValue >= /*100*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_MAJOR_THRESHOLD())
				eThreatType = THREAT_MAJOR;
			else if(iThreatValue >= /*50*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_MINOR_THRESHOLD())
				eThreatType = THREAT_MINOR;

			// Also test % of players killed (in case we're on a map with very few players or something)
			iNumPlayersKilled = GetOtherPlayerNumMinorsConquered(eLoopPlayer) + GetOtherPlayerNumMajorsConquered(eLoopPlayer);
			if(iNumPlayersKilled > 0)
			{
				iPlayersKilledPercent = iNumPlayersKilled * 100 / iNumPlayersEver;

				iWarmongerMod = GetWarmongerHate() - /*5*/ GC.getDEFAULT_FLAVOR_VALUE();	// Calculate difference from default
				iWarmongerMod *= /*10*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_PERSONALITY_MOD();	// This will range from -50 to 50 (%)
				iPlayersKilledPercent += (iPlayersKilledPercent * iWarmongerMod / 100);

				if(iPlayersKilledPercent >= /*40*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_CRITICAL_PERCENT_THRESHOLD())
					eThreatType = THREAT_CRITICAL;
				if(iPlayersKilledPercent >= /*25*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_SEVERE_PERCENT_THRESHOLD())
					eThreatType = THREAT_SEVERE;
			}

			// Set the Threat
			SetWarmongerThreat(eLoopPlayer, eThreatType);

			// decay score
			ChangeOtherPlayerWarmongerAmount(eLoopPlayer, /*-5*/GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_PER_TURN_DECAY());
		}
	}
}

// slewis - warmonger calculations
	if (bConquest)
	{
		if(!isMinorCiv())
		{
			bool bDoWarmonger = true;

			// Don't award warmongering if you're conquering a city you owned back
			if (pOldCity->getOriginalOwner() == GetID())
			{
				bDoWarmonger = false;
			}

			if (bDoWarmonger)
			{
				for(int iMajorLoop = 0; iMajorLoop < MAX_MAJOR_CIVS; iMajorLoop++)
				{
					PlayerTypes eMajor = (PlayerTypes)iMajorLoop;
					if(GetID() != eMajor && GET_PLAYER(eMajor).isAlive())
					{
						// Have I met the player who conquered the city?
						if(GET_TEAM(GET_PLAYER(eMajor).getTeam()).isHasMet(getTeam()))
						{
							int iNumCities = max(GET_PLAYER(pOldCity->getOwner()).getNumCities(), 1);
							int iWarmongerOffset = (1000 * GC.getMap().getWorldInfo().GetEstimatedNumCities()) / (max(GC.getGame().getNumCities(), 1) * iNumCities);
							GET_PLAYER(eMajor).GetDiplomacyAI()->ChangeOtherPlayerWarmongerAmount(GetID(), iWarmongerOffset);
						}
					}
				}
			}
		}
	}

			// Also test % of players killed (in case we're on a map with very few players or something)
			iNumPlayersKilled = GetOtherPlayerNumMinorsConquered(eLoopPlayer) + GetOtherPlayerNumMajorsConquered(eLoopPlayer);
			if(iNumPlayersKilled > 0)
			{
				iPlayersKilledPercent = iNumPlayersKilled * 100 / iNumPlayersEver;

				iWarmongerMod = GetWarmongerHate() - /*5*/ GC.getDEFAULT_FLAVOR_VALUE();	// Calculate difference from default
				iWarmongerMod *= /*10*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_PERSONALITY_MOD();	// This will range from -50 to 50 (%)
				iPlayersKilledPercent += (iPlayersKilledPercent * iWarmongerMod / 100);

				if(iPlayersKilledPercent >= /*40*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_CRITICAL_PERCENT_THRESHOLD())
					eThreatType = THREAT_CRITICAL;
				if(iPlayersKilledPercent >= /*25*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_SEVERE_PERCENT_THRESHOLD())
					eThreatType = THREAT_SEVERE;
			}

			// Set the Threat
			SetWarmongerThreat(eLoopPlayer, eThreatType);

			// decay score
			ChangeOtherPlayerWarmongerAmount(eLoopPlayer, /*-5*/GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_PER_TURN_DECAY());

Gamgee said:

I did try to keep allies, I went out of my way to help them. Politics is pointless since Polynesia has 90% of the votes since the congress was founded.

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predarek said:

From what I'm seeing so far, you cannot avoid completely any part of the game anymore (diplomacy or culture). If you let them have all the votes, you probably should have compromised in other areas, if not, well you end up suffering

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