Éa, The Ageless and the Divine (phase 2, alpha)

What do you mean by fantasy art? Unit models?

Also about the tech/research thing. Could you make it so that having certain buildings reduced the cost of specific techs, to simulate the effect on science of e.g. actually having lots of farmers on selective breeding? In this case perhaps some buildings like ["livestock market" requires market, gives +1 gold per pasture, -15% cost of selective breeding tech and -7.5% cost of agricultural revolution, requires pasture in city radius] and ["grain exchange" requires market, gives +1 gold per farm which upgrades a resource, -15% cost of crop rotation and -7.5% cost of agricultural revolution, requires upgraded wheat OR rice OR etc in city radius] ? these examples are to show the kind of building I mean, the numbers and techs names aren't necessarily balanced or themed properly but ~ eh; it gets the point across. I mean it makes more sense to me that farming techs would be more easily found by a civ with lots of farmers than one with lots of universities.

BrokenSky said:

What do you mean by fantasy art? Unit models?

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Yes. Orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, trolls, elves (for the Sidhe), etc. There are literally 100s of custom (or converted) Civ5 units available with WWII theme, but only 5 or so fantasy. Tutorial here. It's tough to learn how to do this but probably not so hard after that. Same can be said for programming, but I've already invested 1000s of hrs in programming (so I'm good at that) but haven't invested any time in learning how to make 3d unit models (so that feels like a brick wall to me).

BrokenSky said:

Also about the tech/research thing. Could you make it so that having certain buildings reduced the cost of specific techs, to simulate the effect on science of e.g. actually having lots of farmers on selective breeding? ...

Click to expand...

It can be done because I've already created this mechanism for Tomes. E.g., Tome of Metallurgy gives you +20% research rate when researching Bronze Working, Iron Working, etc. The effect could potentially be linked to anything: buildings, improvements, policies, religions, etc. (though it is a civ-wide effect so I'm not sure what would you would do with multiple instances of a building).

However, there's a bit of runtime overhead for this, so I wouldn't want to apply the effect in many small doses for many different things. If it was very fitting (flavor-wise) for a particular building, or if it filled some gameplay need, I would consider adding the effect.

(After writing above, it does occur to me that this could help counteract knowledge maintenance for a very specialized but illiterate civilization. A civ that is very focused on fishing/seafaring could continue to progress in these techs even if shut down on everything else. Hmmm. But I don't like the way it would disproportionately favor very big civs. They'd get big bonuses for everything.)

Pazyryk said:

(After writing above, it does occur to me that this could help counteract knowledge maintenance for a very specialized but illiterate civilization. A civ that is very focused on fishing/seafaring could continue to progress in these techs even if shut down on everything else. Hmmm. But I don't like the way it would disproportionately favor very big civs. They'd get big bonuses for everything.)

Click to expand...

You could limit the beneficial research rate for illiterate, focused civs by tying it to having a certain percentage of the population engaged in the same industry. That way once a civilisation gets too large, there's no risk of them getting the bonus on top of all their other bonuses as larger civilisations will be have a more diverse population.

well you could make such buildings (the ones that give tech bona) national wonders with a limit >1 ?

edit: here is a link to another fantasy mod which is being worked on; i know you've already seen it paz, but i'm just putting a link in in case it might help with the lack of art at the moment? link

I'm pretty sure there is a nice idea behind.. the trick is in the balance: favoring neither tall nor wide civs... but favoring civs that invest a lot into a technology field.

an idea might be to have it have a decreasing effect with additional numbers... all such buildings taken into account, and count libraries and science-boosting buildings into this.

TechDecrease(n) = TDi (ln(n) +1)*[ln(n)+1]/[ln(N)+1], with n the number of building for 1 tech and N the tech increasing buildings .. all the ln(x)+1...are to make way for the ln(1) exceptions)
such that you get one farmer's expert association : -10% for each farming tech.
you get 2 farmer's expert associations : 10 (ln(2)+1)*(ln(2)+1)/(ln(2)+1) = -16.9%
3 farmer's expert associations : 10*(ln(3)+1)*(ln(3)+1)/(ln(3)+1)= -20.9%

and then... you add a "fishermans' wisesmen think-group" ... total : 4 science buildings.
so : 18.4% toward farming techs 10*(ln(3)+1)*(ln(3)+1)/(ln(4)+1)= -18.4%
+ 10*(ln(1)+1)*(ln(1)+1)/(ln(4)+1)=4.19% toward fishing techs.
and you add a library.; (+10% science toward every tech) .. total 5 science buildings:
BUT
10*(ln(3)+1)*(ln(3)+1)/(ln(5)+1)= -16.8% toward farming techs +10% library
+ 10*(ln(1)+1)*(ln(1)+1)/(ln(5)+1)=3.8% toward fishing techs +10% library

so yes, there is an effect of size of the empire, but IMO it is quickly squashed into nothingness...
the only one would will really profite of this system will be those with few libraries, that specialise into one field.
(but 10 cities specializing in farming, without libraries, only brings 33% decrease on farming tech.)
as soon as you introduce libraries, or specialisations in other fields.. the total bonus still increases, but each individual bonus decreases).

4.5*(ln(n)+2.5)*(ln(n)+1)/(ln(N)+1) also work very nicely, with a much steeper decrease after 2 of a same tech bonus. : 11.25% at 1, 14.3% bonus at 2, 16.2 at 3 (instead of 16.9 and 20.9) and 14.2 at 3/4 and 13% at 3/5 and 10% at 3 out of 10 buildings .

well, anyhow, i'm losing myself in the math.. so that's no good.
I hope the global principle can be useful, even if you don't even use a formula similar to that.

To keep it simpler, there could be a set of "favored" techs for each player. Maybe 5 or 6 of these are gained at civ naming. 1 or 2 more are gained based on what improvements/resources you have developed the most (these could change during the game). Tomes would just add to your list of favored techs. It wouldn't be too hard to highlight these techs in the tech popup.

Favored techs could be either partially or totally immune to knowledge maintenance. That is, they count only 50% (or not at all) against your known tech number and you only get 50% KM hit (or none at all) while researching them. (The advantage for having partial effects is that they can stack. So Ab civ, for example, has -50% KM for Beast Breading, but can still reduce KM another -50% with the Tome of Beasts.)

To balance this I'd have to bump up KM for non-favored techs. The +% research from libraries/universities/etc boosts research across the board but would become necessary to counteract KM for non-favored techs (where KM will reach >100%).

Sounds like you're heading back in the direction of the secondary and tertiary naming events. If this is a separate system, there's going to be overlap if you do both.

The 2nd, 3rd "trait" events have been put on indefinite hold. It always seemed like a good mechanic, but the problem is thinking of enough interesting and memorable traits. I have to fully flesh out the primary (naming) traits first. Not sure if additional traits will ever get added.

The "favored techs" concept is kind of different. It seems like a useful mechanic for civ-differentiation (which is why I think it should be linked to naming) but can be used for other things too (like Tomes).

I'll be releasing v17 soon. This will be the last version for phase 2 before I convert to BNW and start adding phase 3 content. This fixes some major problems with Militarism branch (policies were supposed to make it possible to support large army with less gold -- that wasn't working), a bug in knowledge maintenance (I broke it in v16), and some other issues found in long autoplay sessions.

But the most interesting thing is an entirely new barb system. I described this a while back, but it's working now (modified text below to be correct)...

Pazyryk said:

New Barb Encampment System

I was adding Ogres this weekend and got to thinking how bored I was with the existing barb system. Four things I don't like about it: no diversity; absolute predictability (quickly spawn exactly 3 units per encampment); killing roaming barbs has very little effect on number of barbs in an area (due to the last point); too dominant in early game and too unimportant later in the game.

v17 will have six kinds of encampments:

• Orc Settlement (found in or near forest, jungle, hills, mountains) Guarded by and spawns Orc units (right now that is only Orc Warriors)
• Ogre Settlement (found in or near desert) Guarded by and spawns Ogres (strength on par with Heavy Inf.)
• Wildmen Settlement (initially widespread but later relegated to tundra and snow areas) Guarded by and spawns Wildmen (=Warriors) that upgrade to Brutes (=L.Inf.) Archers, and Toughs (=M.Inf.). Most Wildmen Settlements that are not in or near tundra or snow will later upgrade to Horse Tribe, Elephant Tribe or Pirate Cove (all of these are race Man).
• Horse Tribe (always near Horses with preference for nearby flat plains and grasslands) Guarded by Warriors that upgrade to Archers, Lt. Infantry, Bowmen and Marksmen; spawns Horsemen that upgrade to Horse Archers, Equites, Bowed Cavalry and (very late) Sagittarii.
• Elephant Tribe (always near Elephants) Guarded by Wildmen that upgrade to Archers, Brutes, Bowmen and Toughs; spawns Mounted Elephants that upgrade to War Elephants and (very late) Mumakil.
• Pirate Cove (always coastal with preference for many nearby sea plots, so will dominate on islands or isthmuses) Guarded by Archers that upgrade to Brutes, Crossbowmen, Toughs and Arquebussmen; spawns Galleys that upgrade all the way up to Galleons.

Everything above is entered by tables, so easy to modify or add more. Some have upgrades, but others (like Ogres) make the same unit throughout the game. Upgrades only occur as players achieve the associated upgrade techs. Spawning chance is a function of three factors: First, it is inversely proportional to unit power (using cost as proxy) squared. So, for example, roaming Ogres will spawn at a little less than 1/4 the rate of roaming Orcs. Second, chance is directly proportional to game turn (so 2x as likely at turn 100 as 50). Lastly, chance is inversely proportional to unit density squared. Density is number of roaming units in an area / number of encampments that produce that roaming type in an area (for Pirate Coves and their Pirate Ships, the whole world is treated as one area).

Oh,... and I'm giving barbs healing, but only at encampments.

If I balance correctly it will start out more slowly but become a larger challenge in mid to late game than base. The encampment itself is a tougher nut to crack with the healing, but spawn rate of roaming units will be far lower (in the very early game). However, they can "build up" if you don't do anything about them. Negative feedback from density prevents infinite spawning, but it is not a "hard stop" at a particular number as in base Civ5. So killing roaming units has a much greater impact on number of units.

It's looking pretty cool in early tests.

Click to expand...

Éa II, v17, available for download in the OP (will break saves)

As I said above, this will be the last phase 2 version. See post above for the new barb system. This one is playing up to turn 400 or more in autoplays, so pretty stable.

• [hotfix 16a]Fixed rare plot error in Action logic
• [hotfix 16a]Improved religion icons
• Fixed error swapping marsh and forest for AI civ naming preference
• BNW automatically disabled
• Added mod-specific barbarian system. There are 6 different kinds of encampment: Wildmen Encampment, Orc Encampment, Ogre Encampment (w/ new Ogre unit!), Horse Tribe, Elephant Tribe, and Pirate Cove. Each has its own set of "base" units and "roam/sea" units, which can upgrade. Spawning is less predictable than base: it still incorporates unit density (in an area) but without hard-coded max, and unit power is also considered (so fewer Ogre spawns than other units).
• Fixed Militarism opener to give 4 free units as intended (was using non-functional xml tag)
• Fixed Militarism policies so each give -10% unit maintenance (another non-functional xml tag)
• Warriors and scouts are now maintenance free; reduced warriors strength (7 to 6) and cost slightly
• Fixed bug in knowledge maintenance calculation (wasn't happening in last version)
• Fixed infinite loop bug when AI cast Magic Missile
• Adjusted AI weightings for various spells and actions (eg, an AI Druid will value Worship much more when mana is low, and will more likely find something else to do when mana is high)
• Returned city range to 1. Yes, I keep going back and forth, but we really need this given the tight city placements allowed by the mod. So barbs, AI and/or other rules have to be adjusted to cope (no-maintenance warriors is part of this).
• CSs get a starting warriors unit

Congrats on getting a new version out. Don't know when I'll get a chance to try it.

one of the coolest news tof that end of year

Well, I have a Phase 3 build running in BNW that doesn't cause an instant crash to desktop. That's some progress...


On another note, I'm trying to figure out a way to handle international trade routes in phase 3, but I haven't really figured this out yet. Here are the constraints:

1. I want to use the existing BNW's system as much as possible (but modified to meet the next two criteria).
2. The mod's Merchants must play a MAJOR ROLE in the system.
3. It is highly desirable that the Merchants have to go to foreign cities. The reason is that they will have espionage actions in addition to trade actions. Both of these are done in the foreign city (so you won't quite know for sure which one is being done by a foreign Merchant in your city).

My previous thinking was that the Merchant would go to the foreign city (trade route destination) and then do some action (some # of turns) that would result in a trade route connection back to one of the merchant's cities (the specific city is player's choice or automatically picked based on best yield; there would be one action to make land route and another for sea route). The caravan or cargo ship just appears and is assigned by the mod's own Lua logic. The Merchant is then free to make another one or do something else. I would also keep the BNW system of having limits on number and range of trade routes, both modified by mod techs, buildings and/or policies.

But that leaves some questions unanswered. Do trade routes expire? If so...

1. does the Merchant have to go do the action all over again? (That seems too onerous.)
2. does the caravan or cargo ship re-appear in the player city giving player total choice of new route? (This is what the game will do if I don't modify it. This is as in BNW but seems miss-matched with the way trade routes are first established in Éa.)
3. does player get an option to re-establish only the same exact trade route? (If you say No, then you loose the route and don't get your caravan or cargo ship back. But you do get the opportunity to establish a different route now if you were at your trade route number limit.)

Anyway, that's my line of thinking now (leaning toward option 3 above). But I'd consider other ideas if they meet the criteria at the top of the post.

"Anyway, that's my line of thinking now (leaning toward option 3 above). But I'd consider other ideas if they meet the criteria at the top of the post."

Here is an idea of something that covers the 3 limits given, adds a layer of complexity and should be easier to implement:
1. Merchant goes to city and does "Research trade opportunities" action which gives you a certain number of "trade points" depending on merchant level, city distance and size, ect.
2. This or another merchant back in your city uses the acumulated trade points to create a caravan/trade ship
3. The trade points can be used to give some other trade boosts too (rnumber of routes, trade buildings increasing range and profit, ect.)

Point here is, merchants go to foreign cities to boost your civ's overall trade capability (of course visiting same city again will give diminishing returns), while the trade route system works as in vanilla but uses this new resource instead of production.

Yeah, that's one possible approach. Basically the Merchant does something that results in raising max trade route number, or possibly range. That can be implemented. Unfortunately, there is nothing restricting the subsequent trade route to the foreign civ that a Merchant is acting in.

It's kind of all-or-nothing on Lua control of trade routes. I can directly establish a specific one via Lua. But if I give (or allow player to build) a trade unit, then I have no modding control on where they send it or the yields they get from it.

Yeah, that's one possible approach. Basically the Merchant does something that results in raising max trade route number, or possibly range. That can be implemented. Unfortunately, there is nothing restricting the subsequent trade route to the foreign civ that a Merchant is acting in.

Click to expand...

Well, you can look at it from another angle - does it have to be restricted? From a gameplay perspective dragging a unit to another civ every time you want to establish or modify a trade route is clumsy - it's basically the Civ2 caravans system.

If you need to give incentive to players to send merchants out it can be achieved by minor global trade bonuses which they secure by visiting different cities and doing trade actions there. These global bonuses reflect all the business contacts made, rumors heard, ect. which help with trade in general not just with the civ visited.

I've got a trade system mostly working.

1. Merchant goes to valid destination city and "opens" a new trade route (valid means currently in range). The trade route remains "open" forever (as long as same players own originating and destination cities) regardless of pillaging.
2. You get a free trade unit and automatic route whenever a merchant opens a new route (as long as you have not exceeded max number of routes)
3. You can build a trade unit as long as you have open routes (and not exceeding max route number). Trade units also appear whenever a route expires (exactly as in base)
4. When you have a trade unit, then you can move it (as in base) or establish a new trade route, but you can only choose from routes that have (at some time) been opened by a merchant.
5. Trade Route Overview panel (Available tab) will indicate which routes are open. (Maybe the tab should change name to "In Range")

One thing I'm thinking about is having separate max number for land and sea routes. Techs or wonders would increase max number of either land or sea routes (no longer a combined max). Not sure about this yet.

Espionage ideas for Phase 3.

There is no "espionage system" per se in the mod. No specific "spy" units or dedicated UI screen. Instead, espionage is just a set of GP actions and a set of promotions that enhance these actions. In general, these will be performed in a foreign city and most likely by your Great Merchants. There is historical precedent for this: merchants have always acted as explorers, diplomats and spies. In any case, your Merchants are already going to foreign cities to open trade routes, so this gives them some more options in their travels. (There are two more classes that might do espionage, but more on that later...)

Some espionage actions I've thought of (or borrowed):

• View city (instant and uses no movement). Opens city screen.
• Socialize (8 turns) Get to know GPs from this civilization and what they are doing. Perhaps this would be a popup UI that would be available (forever after) for this GP in this civilization.
• Propagandize (8 turns). Raise relations with Full Civ or CS. Small chance of failure that results in small decrease in relations.
• Coup d'état (25 turns) Convert a CS to a puppet city. At the commencement of this effort, there would be an option to invest different amounts of gold. More invested means higher chance of success at end of 25 turns.
• Steal Technology (8 turns?). I think I would make you target a tech to start this. Chance of success would be related to cost of target tech.
• Assassinate (25 turns?) Kill foreign GP in or near city, including possibly the leader. Chance of success would be related to level of target.

All of these (except the first two) would have some chance of success versus failure (depending on individual GP espionage modifier) with one or more possible failure modes. These would depend on seriousness of action and might vary from escape without detection to captured and killed with serious diplomatic consequences.

Any other ideas are welcome. These are not too hard to program (...after a year building the GP action system).

Pazyryk said:

Well, I have a Phase 3 build running in BNW that doesn't cause an instant crash to desktop. That's some progress...


On another note, I'm trying to figure out a way to handle international trade routes in phase 3, but I haven't really figured this out yet. Here are the constraints:

1. I want to use the existing BNW's system as much as possible (but modified to meet the next two criteria).
2. The mod's Merchants must play a MAJOR ROLE in the system.
3. It is highly desirable that the Merchants have to go to foreign cities. The reason is that they will have espionage actions in addition to trade actions. Both of these are done in the foreign city (so you won't quite know for sure which one is being done by a foreign Merchant in your city).

My previous thinking was that the Merchant would go to the foreign city (trade route destination) and then do some action (some # of turns) that would result in a trade route connection back to one of the merchant's cities (the specific city is player's choice or automatically picked based on best yield; there would be one action to make land route and another for sea route). The caravan or cargo ship just appears and is assigned by the mod's own Lua logic. The Merchant is then free to make another one or do something else. I would also keep the BNW system of having limits on number and range of trade routes, both modified by mod techs, buildings and/or policies.

But that leaves some questions unanswered. Do trade routes expire? If so...

1. does the Merchant have to go do the action all over again? (That seems too onerous.)
2. does the caravan or cargo ship re-appear in the player city giving player total choice of new route? (This is what the game will do if I don't modify it. This is as in BNW but seems miss-matched with the way trade routes are first established in Éa.)
3. does player get an option to re-establish only the same exact trade route? (If you say No, then you loose the route and don't get your caravan or cargo ship back. But you do get the opportunity to establish a different route now if you were at your trade route number limit.)

Anyway, that's my line of thinking now (leaning toward option 3 above). But I'd consider other ideas if they meet the criteria at the top of the post.

Click to expand...

just ready that above without the following I would think about this (without knowing if possible):
-GM create : Boat or Caravane (if in land-locked city)
-boat/caravane : goes to your city.
-upon achievement of the trade route:
a choice-box opens :
-continue trade with same city (small investment cost: quite reasonnable accuracy of the outcome of the new caraven : eg: invest 20 ; expectated income when back (in 20 turns) : 800 +/- 50)
-can try to trade with another city in same civ : list of 2 cities max: the "expected most profitable that you know of" (medium investment cost: medium risks on the accuracy of the trade's prediction (invest 150 to get from 800 +/- 300 : 500-1100)
-can try to trade with another civ : all known civs, cannot choose the targeted city. (high investment cost / higher risk on return on investment + risk of losing the ship/caraven : it is better to open trade routes using GM : 200 to open route + 150 to invest : expected return : 50% chance of coming back + expected return : 800 +/-500 : 300-1300)

and have all the choices be "opened in a new window" so you don't have too much control on the unit : you fix targets but don't micor-manage the unit:
1) : continue the decision of the GM : less stressful/micromangement than doign it every time... but you still get decision times if situations changes a lot
2) : small change to adapt to local diversities
3) : take a risk.

in all cases, the trade unit "disappear" until sent back to the targeted city... and reappears there, with mission to come back... and risks of being targetted by pirates !!


but in the end, your announcement of dec 1 is better that what I thought about

Here's the Phase 3 tech tree! I don't have all the "stuff" added yet but I thought some would like to see it anyway.

Edit: uploaded again with some errors fixed.

It's more than 2x bigger (bigger than base Civ5 I believe). You'll notice a lot of "magic" techs that grow out of Divine Liturgy, Maleficium, Thaumaturgy and Music Theory. These allow new spells to be learned (and other things) that will make your spellcasters very powerful -- enough so to destroy the world for one victory condition (or to save it).

Knowledge maintenance will get a major adjustment. "Low tech" (even illiterate) civs should get ~22 techs in a long game, including some tier 6 and even one tier 7 tech. "High tech" civs should be able to pick up half to two-thirds of the whole tree.