Should Germany Have Won WW1?

Humanity didn't have any rights in war until 1948. The Geneva Conventions in place at 1914 only covered "Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field" and "Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea" (1906).
Yes, and nobody was in the habit of putting anybody on trial for actions taken in a war at the time. The Entente didn't even manage to try Wilhelm after the war. "Should" was a moral statement, not a legal one and not one based on what could plausibly occurred.
And also killed 148 of them. Warfare between Greek city-states was usually not a very large scale warfare.

Sphacteria is a good example of light and mobile infantry (peltasts) defeating heavy and less mobile (hoplites).

If I recall correctly, there was one more similar battle, where peltasts defeated Spartan hoplites.
I doubt that peltasts alone defeated that small regiment of Spartans, which only played a role due to having a number of Homioi which Spartans had to think of due to many reasons. Athens had clear naval superiority at the time, and Sphakteria is a tiny island that seemed to be heavily forested during the Peloponnesian war. :)
Yes, the Battle of Sphakteria was unusually small by Greek standards, because it was more or less the 'clean-up' from the Battle of Pylos a few months before, a medium-sized naval battle that ended with the Spartans in question holed up on Sphakteria taking refuge from the Athenian fleet.

People point to the use of lightly armed troops and missile units during this battle by Demosthenes, the Athenian general, as indicative of a continuum of development in warfare. Demosthenes, it is said, honed Greek light infantry tactics during the Aitolian campaign in 426, then deployed them to perfection against the Spartans on Sphakteria the following year. Following from his example, the later Athenian general Isokrates then used light infantry to great effect against a Spartan mora at the Nemea during the early stages of the Korinthian War three decades later; Isokrates, Iason of Pherai, and eventually Philippos II developed Greek missile infantry to the level that they would take in the Makedonian syntagma during the campaigns of Alexander.

I think this explanation is awfully simplistic and teleological. Lightly armed troops were also notably scattered and crushed by unaided hoplites repeatedly during these wars. Unsupported peltasts or psiloi rarely achieved the sort of success that Isokrates found at the Nemea; Demosthenes had the success he did in Aitolia and Akarnania precisely because he operated in a rudimentary combined-arms framework. And Kyriakos is right: Demosthenes and Kleon also employed hoplites and enjoyed naval supremacy for the Battle of Sphakteria. They also may have benefited from a bizarre incident during which a scouting party accidentally burned the forest on the island down, revealing the Spartans' hiding spots. One doesn't need to resort to the missile infantry narrative to explain Athenian success on Sphakteria. They enjoyed such an overwhelming superiority that Spartan defeat was, if not preordained, extremely likely.
Kyriakos said:
Btw, i read that immediately after the AigosPotamoi, the captured Athenian sailors were (uncharacteristically, i suppose) put to death by the Spartans. I read they cited some earlier atrocity (of much smaller numbers) by Athenians against Sparta- was it related to Sphakteria?
It wasn't Sphakteria; I don't think that anybody's positively identified the event the Spartans cited. For reference:
Xen. said:
After this, Lysandros gathered the allies together and told them to consult about the fate of the prisoners. In that discussion, many accusations were made against the Athenians, both the many deeds they had already done that were contrary to custom and law, and the many resolutions they had passed in their Assembly concerning how they would treat their enemies if they had won the battle - in particular, the vote to cut off the right hands of those they captured. It was also noted that the Athenians, when they had captured a Korinthian and also an Andrian trireme, had thrown all the men on those ships overboard. (Philokles was the Athenian general who had sent those men to their deaths.)

Many other accusations were made against the Athenians, and it was finally decided to kill all those of the prisoners who were Athenians, with the exception of Adeimantos, who alone had attacked the decree in the Assembly about the cutting off of hands. He was, however, charged by some with betraying the ships. Philokles, who had thrown overboard the Korinthians and the Andrians, was first asked by Lysandros what he thought he deserved for have begun uncustomary and illegal actions against the Greeks, and then had his throat cut.
Philokles' presence in the aftermath of Aigospotamoi makes it fairly unlikely that he served at Sphakteria, and there is no record in Thoukydides of the Athenians having committed any kind of atrocity there. Since the men sent overboard were from captured ships, it would have had to have been in the aftermath of Pylos, not Sphakteria, anyway. I think that it's more likely that the event in question took place during the campaign of Aigospotamoi, or perhaps even during the battle itself, rather than twenty years before.
But, you see, there was peculiarly German Militarism...

I think we all recognize that the British and French uncritically accepted hearsay and unconfirmed rumors of the wildest sort as fact and used it all opportunistically as propoganda during the war. On the other hand, there are numerous actual documented cases of atrocities and war crimes - particularly in Belgium, Luxembourg and Northeastern France (Horne and Kramer, German Atrocities 1914: A History of Denial, Yale, 2001). I believe I'm fairly well informed and reasonably balanced on this issue. You, however, with your "horror of the blockade", seem to have slipped off into the opposite direction from your accusation against me.

Hun, as I'm sure you're aware, actually comes from the Kaiser's own lunatic speech to his troops leaving for China to fight the Boxer Rebellion in 1900.

" You must know, my men, that you are about to meet a crafty, well-armed, cruel foe! Meet him and beat him! Give him no quarter! Take no prisoners! Kill him when he falls into your hands! Even as, a thousand years ago, the Huns under their King Attila made such a name for themselves as still resounds in legend and fable, so may the name of Germans resound through Chinese history a thousand years from now..."

Bulow pleaded with William to tone it down; "Speeches such as this will be used by Germany's enemies to demonstrate that Germany is a land of barbarians."

And when German troops acted just this way in Belgium, the name Hun stuck - appropriately.

I suppose every country sucks to someone. But in my opinion, Germany's scheme to attack Russia - by invading Belgium and France - was just an azzhat thing to do.
Nobody has denied that German atrocities did take place during the war. I openly acknowledged them with the reference to Louvain. But nothing the Germans did during the war compares with Britain's illegal blockade, a weapon explicitly designed by Britain's political and military leadership to attack Germany's civilian population. The only thing that comes close is Germany's U-boat campaign after 1917, but the damage the Germans inflicted during that year and a half pales in comparison to what the British did during the entirety of war and during the cease-fire. Over half a million German civilians died as a result of the blockade, and I defy you to find anything that the Kaiserreich did that stacks up to that.

The German atrocities in 1914 that you mention are more on a par with what the Russians did during their brief incursions into Galicia and East Prussia, in terms of scale and relevance. They're not even in the same league.

Unless rhetoric has become a war crime as well, I don't see what a speech made by one man fifteen years before the war on an entirely different subject has to do with the relative atrocities committed by the Entente and by the Central Powers during the war.

It's also nice that you mention how Germany violated Belgian neutrality without bringing up how Britain and France violated Greek neutrality, fomented a civil war on Greek soil, and fought a war on Greek territory until they had a puppet government that would accede to their wishes. And how you don't bring up the attempted Entente gang-rape of the Ottoman Empire in 1914. That, ah, stuff flows both ways. Even Germany's violation of Belgian neutrality was partially based on the entirely correct premise that if the Germans didn't do it first, the French and British would do it later. As it was, the British did violate Dutch neutrality during the Siege of Antwerp, but nobody cared, apparently.

And then, well, if we want to get into war guilt, we kind of have to start with Sergey Sazonov, Raymond Poincaré, and the "Period Preparatory to War". But, you know, that would require reading books by Albertini, or McMeekin, or Clark, not just eating up Tuchman's factually wrong depiction of the July Crisis.

This isn't an attempt to exculpate Germany for doing what it did, but rather to show that the Entente was no better, and that "a plague on both your houses!" is a more reasonable response to the Great War than a claim that a German victory would be materially worse than one by the Entente.
 
Yes, the Battle of Sphakteria was unusually small by Greek standards

I absolutely cannot agree. Most of Greek battles were that small.

Most of Greek city-states were small and could not field more than several hundred hoplites.

When you take a look at the battle of Thermopylae, you can see that Corinth fielded 400 men, Phlius - 200, Mykenes - 80, Orchomenus - 120, Tegea - 250, Mantineia - 250, all other Peloponnesian city-states combined except for Sparta - 200, Thebes - 400, Thespiae - 700. Etc., etc.

These are not large numbers.

Greeks could field large armies when united, but in case of civil wars between small city-states usual battles involved several hundreds on each side.

Of course Sparta and Athens were giants compared to other city-states of the period, so maybe Sphacteria was small by their standards.

But it was not small by Greek standards.

The largest army ever mobilized by the Greek city-states I can think of right now was in the battle of Plataea - and it was ca. 100,000 strong.

it was more or less the 'clean-up' from the Battle of Pylos a few months before

Not exactly a giant battle either. 50 ships vs 60 ships.
 
It wasn't Sphakteria; I don't think that anybody's positively identified the event the Spartans cited. For reference:

Philokles' presence in the aftermath of Aigospotamoi makes it fairly unlikely that he served at Sphakteria, and there is no record in Thoukydides of the Athenians having committed any kind of atrocity there. Since the men sent overboard were from captured ships, it would have had to have been in the aftermath of Pylos, not Sphakteria, anyway. I think that it's more likely that the event in question took place during the campaign of Aigospotamoi, or perhaps even during the battle itself, rather than twenty years before.

Great info, thanks :)

I have to ask, regarding the text by Xenophon, did he mean that Philokles was asked what he deserved for the cruelty, and then immediately (supposedly the next moment, without any answer) his throat was cut? And if so, did this happen by Lysandros or someone else?
 
Sèvres in particular was arguably worse... The Turks .. were essentially penned up on the Anatolian plateau to...uh...I dunno, starve?
which incidentally has a further twist in that the expected Turkish resistance to the partition of Anatolia was to result in a fundamental change in the Ottoman "Empire" to survive after the campaign . You know Sevres designated a part of Anatolia as an "Homeland" for Turks . The Caucasian population previously relocated to areas in question after various Russian advances in the 1800s were sure to make a name for themselves in any fight against the "invaders" , say the Greeks . Combine that with miserable standarts always pertaining to the Turks and soon the Ottomans would have to exchange Turkish loserness with Circassian heroism and stuff , within 20 years even the name would be changed . So that England could have yet another proxy to mess in the Kafkas lands , in case the Reds proved to be unremovable or the Tsars came back with some strength and sense .

which kinda benefited the Turkish War of Liberation . As Mustafa Kemal had been vainly trying to become the Defence Minister and there was no way he could sneak out of Istanbul without getting shot by the British or any other Allied nations' people or quite a large percentage of anybody left in power in the capital ... Since he was almost certainly the only person that could have mobilized the country by being both in and out of Ittihad , the British in their infinite wisdom decided he should be let out . With his fame in the war and close contacts with the Ittihad he was to mobilize the country which was like totally spent , so that there could be a war and the Circassians could make a name for themselves as the saviours of the country ! The Brits just love the Jihadists ...

kemal took perverse delight in rubbing some salt to the Italians' hearts in his meeting with an Italian diplomat , Count Sforza perhaps , on the night before he left for Samsun . With mention of nationalist , even religious , fervour that was sure to get the country to fight and without any mention of how he had done good enough with the Sünusi in Libya . The Italians had enough problems back home and no desire for an extra Cihad in Anatolia , something the Brits would only watch from a distance and had already "punished" Rome with giving Izmir to the Greeks , you know , for lack of heart against a Jihad in Anatolia . We wouldn't fight the Italians and even got to buy some Spads to fight the Greeks , aka the British proxy ...

the New Turkey is so fond of teaching us that Kemal would have never left Istanbul without the British permission and hence visa on his permit to sail in the Blacksea . The New Turkey loves it so much to explain that by the "fact" that Mustafa Kemal was some Godless heretic due to being a b_stard to begin with and a traitor who got a country in return for a promise to abolish the Caliphate . In the race to create real heroes to replace the false prophet and pharoah , a favourite of the Caucasians of the New Turkey is of course -just understandably- Çerkez Ethem , the Ottoman Army Sergeant who commanded more men than Ankara had at the time , wrongly labeled a traitor as he refused integration into the formal army and ran over to the Greeks . The said Caucasians of course exhibit real surprise at the thing that the 1920s generation of the Caucasians willingly assimilated to become one and one with the Turks , faithful to the Old Republic . The Kafkas lands is a tough place ; if a man is a man you will know he will remain a man and die to that end if necessary ; was hard on a whole lot of them to discover they were to betray their "protector" the Ottoman Sultan , under the guise of protecting him . The "new" Caucasians ? Bah ...

and of course there is a twist to the twist . Venizelos in Versailles 1919 was already campaigning for a campaign in this 'Ottoman to Caucasian' rump to remain . In the name of advance of the Civilized world into heathen lands there would have to be a railroad construction to where the Black Sea Greeks lived . As soon as possible but not later than 20 years , say by 1935-40s the railroad would result in troubles and the Greeks would roll in to roll over . With new ways of war . With historical background : Russians in 1700s had slowly trudged across Crimea with massive amounts of logistics integrated into the force , sort of gunpowder nomads that never needed a return to base , slowly but surely destroying the resistance without giving a break -with a requirement to to defend vulnerable lines of communications . Greeks would do likewise , with the visions of tanks acting as ships on land , armoured locusts arranged around trucks and tracked cargo carriers in a formation that moved as an unbreakable phalanx . That would have gained admiration from Alexander himself . To this end the Allies would be very wise to immediately transfer 300 tanks to the Greeks to enable the establishment of a tank army . Drivers and mechanics didn't grow on trees , you would have to train them afterall ... The British listened to which hero in Greek mythology had done what in times gone by , even in the Kafkas lands , yet were not swayed . Circassian horsemen would not be exactly making a name against tanks ...
 
plus this whole Ottoman Oil would have been far tastier had it mentioned just how important Syrian Oil was to the world in 1919 ...

the story of course begins with indications that the Brits and the French are talking to share the Middle East , the very Sykes-Picot stuff and stuff . And it makes sense to presume that the French will demand Oil . Something the Brits already have in South-Western Iran and they are sure to protect that with a wall made of worthless Iraqi deserts and all ; combine that with we Turks must get to be smarter than the monkey on the banana tree , considering the 6 centuries and stuff of the Ottoman Empire and it's quaintly possible that we can deduce France will desire a strip of land from Mediterranean ports into Musul ... Oh yes , what to do ? What to do ?

luckily Abdülhamid is still alive . Still remembering the times he employed a German surveyor to look for oil and the guy while extremely costly to the Ottoman treasury would send the full reports to Berlin with full protection from prying eyes while all Abdülhamid would be getting were kinda pointless summaries . Some of them demonstrably false ... Oh yes , forgery time . A whole new report from "1906-1907" that "reveals" some village 10 miles from Damascus is the first of settlements that float on an immense ocean of high grade crude . Expensive sure , with the amount of deep drilling required , but the ease of refining will soon make it profitable . Close to the Maruni Christians of Lebanon , too ! Long time French interest , right ? The only thing required to make it true ? A mention of the German surveyor on a page and how he swindled the Supreme Porte . One mention on one page -on the margins' of which the deposed Ottoman Sultan will write one single word . With as much as stability of hand as he can provide ...

"F_gg_t!"

extra commentary that matches the situation at the time is just delightful extra , this icing on the cake , if that's the correct phrase to use ... That complete , the "report" gets inside the private papers of the Sultan . Expected pilfering takes within the week , sold to 10 different countries through the services of the US Embassy , it's a bonanza , a windfall ! To make it even more realistic , a visit to Goltz Paşa serves the cause admirably , complaining about this German asset selling secrets to Anglosaxons , French and whatever comes to mind . Goltz is half Turkish by this time anyhow ...

the clock ticks and tocks . It's now 1917 . Russia is about to fall . Germany would like peace in the West to make most of the Communist Revolution . To raise interest Berlin is even ready to share Bakü internationally with an "Open Doors" policy . Can give up even Musul with the Baghdad railroad to be a victory for London . But Syrian oil ... Oh yes . Germans are even thinking an Israel to sit on it . During the entire run of Peace talks of 1917 in Switzerland , The Germans are ready to sell every single piece of us through-out the 9 or 10 months of various sessions but they must have some oil , here or there , somewhere . That's why the "German type" Yıldırım Army Group finally got into Sinai to defend the German Syria instead of saving Baghdad and going into Iran to start the long fancied revolution in India ...

it didn't save the Ottoman Empire . Yet also it didn't take long for the French to see they had erred considerably in exchanging Musul with more of Syria . Given time we would buy some Spads from France , too . Because they were very angry with the Brits and their infinite wisdom of swindling the French into allowing a War of Liberation with the obviously wrong guy in charge . Perfidy , mon ami , perfidy ; the Brits will trick you into thinking you are gloriously tricking them by the technique magnifique of allowing them to trick you into a bad bargain . Say by making them think that you are a big moron by taking Damascus by giving Musul .
 
I agree Iran was not under Ottoman control but it was in their sphere of influence, hence my use of the term wider empire.

and then some stuff on any Ottoman influence on Iran . Without context ı can't make much of that notion . Of course once both countries were run by Turkish dynasties . Where the Ottoman Sultans would write their poems in Farsi , while the Shahs of Iran would be using a clear , delicate Turkish in composing their poems . In times of war , which were aplenty , the language in exchanging curses and lustful demands on each others' mothers and wives would be a not-so-delicate Turkish . The Safavids were even actually Sunnis first before politics required a change of sect .

long running wars were finally over by a treaty in 1639 and our borders with Iran remains the same ever since . A sentence you memorize in high school history lessons and it somehow loses its edge with articles that suggest the Iranians took Baghdad sometime in the 1850s .

or maybe it's the thing that we facing the scum and villainry of Europe regularly forced us to copy the Europeans and Iranians carefully examined our success and failure in such attempts at modernization . To try and fall down at almost exact spots where we fell ?

could it be a "background" idea derived from the recent events where it turns out Turkey has somehow exported almost 90 billions USD of gold to Iran in the past 6 years ; during the embargo which banned financial transactions to hurt the Iranian nuclear programme ? Which is quite easy to deflect in that it's merely easy money and the gold for oil stuff was actually run from the United Arab Emirates and we are almost merely "in" to take the "wrath" of America .


talking of America and Iran and the Gulf Arabs one can never forget the glorious 2008 , where this American Staff invited a couple of distinguished Iranians to Bahrain , right before the Georgian Blitz to decapitate the Russian bear , to skin it and serve its re-productive systems on a platter to the Capitalist bigshots ... So that our carcass could be shared without undue friction ? 'Cause it's merely a non-fiction that we were cry-babying for Putin to save us 'cause America was so much into creating a new 'stan in the Middle East .


incidentally this last thing is why the Iranian Goverment is vehemently refusing that it's the Goverment and not some particularly bored MPs in the Iranian Parliament who propose to remove the capital away from Tahran , preferably Tebriz . Considering the millions and millions of Azeris in Iran , Tebriz is a place no Turk should feel lost . 'Cause it's 2014 already and soon there will be a huge void to Iran's West . No , of course they are not planning to get back to Greece , with maps showing where this Thermoply Pass or wassitsname is with posters of "300" sticked around allover the command posts for a rightful vengeance ... Iran is always patient , they just hope to proxyfy the rampage in Turkey to keep attention from them while they are getting some nukes and some extra tech since fielding human waves is actually very expensive . As such they would be perfectly content to establish some cultural attraction to the conservatives of Eastern Anatolia , hoping America will this time lose the head and rush headlong into the Saudis for de-railing the properly planned and perfectly conducted work of God which seems to be synonymious with some neo-con fantasy while half awake ...

ı was to write this paragraph yesterday , felt it would be rather undelicate if in isolation ; the case would certainly justify the gainful employment of TIE Bombers against which Iranians are almost helpless . Tomcat is of course is the film star but is rather slow ... And would America lend some F-35s to Iran , the wonderous wonder which makes 195 MGLT with droptanks on ? Of course not ...
 
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