More Luxuries

I'm going to remove Perfume, as I have other plans for it (hmm... maybe I'll divulge things about that in the next post) and I also want "rawer" goods taken from the terrain. Though, I'll post up the icon and pretty flower graphics like I did with Tin and Ebony.

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I'm also going to add three more luxuries, which increases the default number by 50%, for a nicer looking grand total of 30.

Ebony: I'm going to add this one back, but I'm going to try to make it improved by a camp rather than a plantation. Plus, I just really dig the icon.

Lapis Lazuli: New; and it's not another plantation luxury! I'm still considering whether to name it "Lapis Lazuli" or the abbreviated "Lapis". All other resources are a single word, so to have a two word title irks me a little bit. Also, yes, I know the meaning of the words.

and I'm sure this one will be popular:

Cannabis: New! There may be some stigma associated with this, but I feel it's silly. Especially with all the other slightly controversial resources and things which already exist in the game (and added with this mod). I'm going with the broader, more natural term to represent both its recreational, medicinal, and religious side and also its industrial side with hemp fibers and such. I'll keep the icon classy (it won't be a joint or anything) much like I tried to do with the Tobacco resource. Luckily, it'll be easier since the leaves are much more iconic than tobacco leaves.

Disappointed to see Perfume is to be removed! Still, I hadn't yet been able to think of a use for it through my Exploration Continued Expanded mod (secondary effects for resources), so maybe your plans will be more inspiring.

I look forward to seeing Lapis Lazuli; it was a resource that I was introducing in the aforementioned mod - but you'll manage a better job than I at the artwork.

though not as much as a lumbermill - but seeing as lumbermills come with Construction (which was already brought out as semi-problematic earlier in the thread), plus they don't have any existing resources using it to base making a new resource from, so camps are a good compromise.

Oh, I'd better peruse the thread and find this, as I'd planned on lumbermills as improvements for some of my luxuries.

EDIT: Ah, a concern about the tech requirements aren't a problem here.
 
Yeah, I still am looking for a Maple resource!
 
Inawordyes said:
Yay, you took gave a look into another of my suggestions! :D I am looking forward to how you plan to do Lapis Lazuli, and maybe the pictures of the lapis stones can provide some inspiration for a really cool icon.

Oh, that's right! You were the one who made all those nice, lengthy suggestions towards the beginning of this thread. You enlightened on the lapis lazuli back then and made me research it a bit more. :)

This may be a fun one. With Jade, I chose to represent it with a bit of Chinese flavor and I think with the Lapis I may do the same and give it a little Egyptian flavor. I was maybe thinking of using King Tut's lapis scarab with the wings. Though, I would add a bit of artistic flair to it to tone things down and emphasize the lapis lazuli -- like removing a lot of the rainbow colors and making the wings solid gold (maybe lined with lapis blue too) and some other things.

Inawordyes said:
Now I just need to see Maple as a camp resource (Maple makes the most sense, actually, because of the syrup, and the maplewood itself makes as much sense for camps as ebony does)

The only minor issue with that is that it has a selective climate. But, I suppose realism could be stretched a bit more like some of the others. Or, it could simply be labeled "syrup" to represent others, like palm syrup in the more tropical zones.

It may also be more of a "bonus" instead of "luxury", compared to other new candidates, but in my opinion it is at least more of a luxury than the other bonus-like luxuries like crab or citrus, since it's more of an accessory to food to enhance it rather than the bulk of the food itself (if that makes sense).

Inawordyes said:
... I'm very curious as to what you have planned for Perfume that necessitated its removal from More Luxuries but apparently put it into something else.

Yeah, I think I'll reveal that today too, because I'll definitely need some feedback on things before I get too far into development. It'll be a separate version of More Luxuries, since the idea may not be crazy with some players (or maybe it WILL seem crazy, which is why they won't like it, haha).

Inawordyes said:
Also, on a small aside (because I may as well ramble some more), I remembered that you had made a Coral icon and was like "did he remove Coral at some point?", until I realized that you never added ultimately added it to begin with. I wish Coral and Pinnipeds were able to be made (especially Pinnipeds, since they're be infinitely harder because of the whole 3d-animals-moving-around stuff).

Yeah, I never got that one to work. I have all the graphics, I just need to implement it somehow into a new gr2 file, so they're underwater. I was using pearls as a base, with the floating grid thing near the boat for divers to grab onto. Perhaps, down the road. Three water luxuries seem okay so far; I'm personally not crazy over regional water luxuries unless the region has a lot of water and I prefer them sprinkled about the map as random luxuries to diversify what's found around the coasts early on as you're exploring and settling, instead of fish... and more fish.

Pinnipeds is beyond what I can do, unfortunately. Also, I would see them more as a bonus -- especially to give snow tiles some help.

Inawordyes said:
A quick question for you Barathor, though: Since Perfume is being removed as a luxury (officially) for the time-being, will Dyes go back to the way they were previously?

Perhaps... and I could just keep the unused, alternate image within the mod. That tyrian purple color actually comes from sea snails, so I figured it wasn't a big deal to change it. I assume the blue alien tentacles which look like they're from Beyond Earth are a type of towering flowers which give blue ink: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphinium :lol:

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A lot of love for Perfume. :) I'll think about things some more. Though, as I said above, I think I may want to keep rawer, more natural materials throughout the terrain (though, wine may break that rule a slight bit), and things that are more created by people can be used elsewhere.
 
A lot of love for Perfume. :) I'll think about things some more. Though, as I said above, I think I may want to keep rawer, more natural materials throughout the terrain (though, wine may break that rule a slight bit), and things that are more created by people can be used elsewhere.

I'm a fan of Perfume as well! I was particularly amused in one game where one of my personal civs, based somewhat around romantic literature and chivalry, got Perfume as their starting luxury... it just seemed so appropriate! I'm not entirely sure I'd be as happy with Hemp/Cannabis...

Still, somewhat curious to see what new plans you've got for Perfume... some kind of set of man-made luxuries, like perfumes, alcohols, and the like?
 
You know, with Grapes = wine and Roses = perfume, I could see (if this is an "alternate reality" More Luxuries) Barley = beer and Apples = cidar/vinegar, with the focus being on man-made (to an extent) ingredients based around more common, not-really-luxurious-inofthemselves things. Though, since you said it was a possibly-crazy idea, I'm sure it's something better. That, and I just wanted an excuse to bring up apples again, haha - hey, vinegar is one of the most-used liquids, in a variety of contexts, in the world, and apple cidar vinegar is, arguably, the most well-known variety, though vinegar itself can be and is made from almost anything.

@"those nice, lengthy suggestions": Haha, I really feel the need, now that you're back in the game with more luxuries (and also since I inspired you to research and ultimately include two luxuries, one in both suggestions list), to write up a third analysis - yet another motion for Maple/Syrup (it's like a tradition now, haha, or maybe a recurring gag), an update on Apples in the new, more luxury-ish form of Vinegar, and at least one more that I believe has been suggested before in the thread, but not by me. It'll be fun, I like researching them.

@Lapis Lazuli: Egyptian/Afghan influences in the graphic icon would be pretty sweet, and very appropriate. I would have two thoughts, though: one, being that 'lapis' is just the Latin word for 'stone', meaning that shortening it to that, while more recognizable, doesn't really mean anything, haha; lazuli is the stone itself, coming from a Latin word derived from an Arabic word, itself derived from a Persian word that refers to the place where it was originally mined in the Middle East. Lazuli as a word has also influenced Europlan cultures, as many words for blue - such as the Spanish 'azul' - come from the word lazuli, showing the influence to which lapis lazuli had as a luxury (and justifying its inclusion). But, being that lazuli by itself maybe isn't as recognizable, and neither lapis nor, technically speaking, lazuli refer truly to the blue stone on their own, (and it's actually a composite of three minerals, which leads into the second point; one is which is lazulite, the blue part) I would suggest keeping the full name and both words.

Two, being that you mentioned simplifying and not having the "rainbow colors". I'm not sure if this is referring to the icon - which, if it is to be an Egyptian statue, is completely reasonable - but if you're referring to the terrain graphics, then I would say, too, to not simplify in that regard. The most cursory of research on lapis lazuli (aka Wikipedia) shows that it is a composite of three minerals, which give it its iconic blue-yellow look. The terrain graphic needs (it's required, haha) to be a mixture of blue and yellow. I think it was Horem who made a Titanium resource in the graphics sub-forum, and it's light blue and light yellow, which is, if you darken both to a navy blue and golden yellow color, basically the perfect representation for lapis lazuli. It 'could' work being just blue, but in my opinion, part of what would make it so unique in-game is that the blue-yellow combination would be so visually distinct from the other metal resources that you'd be basing the recolor off of and would make it really feel like its own, unique resource rather than a recolor of an existing one.

@Maple: I see your point about the bonus-vs.-luxury. In its defense, though, Maple wouldn't be a luxury just because of the maplewood or just because of three syrup, but because both together make it - and have made it historically, keep in mind - a very lucrative and valuable commodity. Which is why I suggested it originally, though I can see where maplewood would be considered a bonus resource as compared to Ebony, since it's used as a more general all-purpose everything like wheat as opposed to moreso in creating religious artifacts. The, perhaps, more general but more inclusive Syrup, however, would encompass more of that outside of Maple (bypassing the selective climate), though maples are the most iconic for syrup and would probably end up being the terrain graphic and icon anyways, just more inherently inclusive by the name of the luxury itself (a comparison is Cinnamon as the terrain graphic and icon still being inclusive and representative of Spices as one of the most recognizable types). If Maple were to be included, though - whether as Maple or as Syrup - I still vote for a something mildly Canadian-themed (as with Jade and Lapis Lazuli) with the icon since they're most-often associated with Canada, which I suggested previously to be a bottle (or bottles) of Maple syrup in the shape of a maple leaf - I linked to a picture or pictures, IIRC, of a reference to what I'm referring to in the second analysis.

@Coral: You should talk to Harem and Ekmek about that, because Horem's been working on getting resources working on the water, though it's like kelp and sea-grass rather then something like Coral. Still, they've been making some good progress in getting that figured out, and if that's the only reason why coral isn't in (as in, they're completely done except for actually implementing them), then they may be able to help you get that sorted out or what they found out in the sea-resources thread in the graphics sub-forum may be able to help you out with what you need. Unless I'm misunderstanding somewhat what the issue is entirely, of course; haha, I'm not a modder really so it's always a possibility.

@Dye: I actually forget what you changed it in the first place, haha; was it because they're purple was close to the pink of the Perfume?

I write really long messages, haha; I should spoiler this. :p
 
Yeah, I think I'll reveal that today too, because I'll definitely need some feedback on things before I get too far into development. It'll be a separate version of More Luxuries, since the idea may not be crazy with some players (or maybe it WILL seem crazy, which is why they won't like it, haha).

Exciting :D
 
Inawordyes said:
... Though, since you said it was a possibly-crazy idea, I'm sure it's something better. ...

Okay, maybe it’s not “that” crazy… since I already mentioned it, I better just explain what I have so far already before imaginations really start to take off and folks are left disappointed, haha. :D

Inawordyes said:
@"those nice, lengthy suggestions": Haha, I really feel the need, now that you're back in the game with more luxuries (and also since I inspired you to research and ultimately include two luxuries, one in both suggestions list), to write up a third analysis ...

Nice, I like lengthy posts (as long as there isn't too much drivel) and yeah, I like researching these goods too, haha. I know I keep saying it, but I think I’m really almost (or at) the limit now for these type of luxuries. If it isn’t 30, it will certainly be at 32. Pantheon-wise, I have things covered for all resources discussed here (even the potential ones I have plans for), but I also want to eventually introduce bonuses via buildings (either special or normal ones; new or existing) and other things.

Also, regarding one of the initial goals of the mod: past a certain point, at much higher civ totals on a map, it doesn't really matter much if they all have a unique regional luxury to trade since they’re going to have much less total luxuries per region (because all the regions are squished smaller). So, any additional luxury types added would mostly just diversify flavor (and perhaps, help warmongers a little more… oh, and the Dutch, haha… I’m sure there’s more things when you get to extreme unique luxury totals in a game).

Though, another analysis would still be very welcome, because I have another plan.


Inawordyes said:
@Lapis Lazuli: Egyptian/Afghan influences in the graphic icon would be pretty sweet, and very appropriate. I would have two thoughts, though: one, being that 'lapis' is just the Latin word for 'stone', meaning that shortening it to that, while more recognizable, doesn't really mean anything, haha; lazuli is the stone itself, coming from a Latin word derived from an Arabic word, itself derived from a Persian word that refers to the place where it was originally mined in the Middle East. Lazuli as a word has also influenced Europlan cultures, as many words for blue - such as the Spanish 'azul' - come from the word lazuli, showing the influence to which lapis lazuli had as a luxury (and justifying its inclusion). But, being that lazuli by itself maybe isn't as recognizable, and neither lapis nor, technically speaking, lazuli refer truly to the blue stone on their own, (and it's actually a composite of three minerals, which leads into the second point; one is which is lazulite, the blue part) I would suggest keeping the full name and both words.

Yeah, I’m aware of all that, plus what the rock is comprised of (I like reading about them too). Even though I believe more people would still identify “lapis” as “lapis lazuli” than they would “rock” (or at least know that it identifies a specific type of rock than just a generic one), I’ll continue to stick with the more common, full name which is usually seen when reading about history and such. Plus, it's really not that lengthy.

Inawordyes said:
Two, being that you mentioned simplifying and not having the "rainbow colors". I'm not sure if this is referring to the icon - which, if it is to be an Egyptian statue, is completely reasonable - but if you're referring to the terrain graphics, then I would say, too, to not simplify in that regard. The most cursory of research on lapis lazuli (aka Wikipedia) shows that it is a composite of three minerals, which give it its iconic blue-yellow look. The terrain graphic needs (it's required, haha) to be a mixture of blue and yellow. I think it was Horem who made a Titanium resource in the graphics sub-forum, and it's light blue and light yellow, which is, if you darken both to a navy blue and golden yellow color, basically the perfect representation for lapis lazuli. It 'could' work being just blue, but in my opinion, part of what would make it so unique in-game is that the blue-yellow combination would be so visually distinct from the other metal resources that you'd be basing the recolor off of and would make it really feel like its own, unique resource rather than a recolor of an existing one.

No worries, I wasn't referring to the terrain graphics. ;)

Inawordyes said:
@Maple: I see your point about the bonus-vs.-luxury. In its defense, though, Maple wouldn't be a luxury just because of the maplewood or just because of three syrup, but because both together make it - and have made it historically, keep in mind - a very lucrative and valuable commodity. Which is why I suggested it originally, though I can see where maplewood would be considered a bonus resource as compared to Ebony, since it's used as a more general all-purpose everything like wheat as opposed to moreso in creating religious artifacts. The, perhaps, more general but more inclusive Syrup, however, would encompass more of that outside of Maple (bypassing the selective climate), though maples are the most iconic for syrup and would probably end up being the terrain graphic and icon anyways, just more inherently inclusive by the name of the luxury itself (a comparison is Cinnamon as the terrain graphic and icon still being inclusive and representative of Spices as one of the most recognizable types). If Maple were to be included, though - whether as Maple or as Syrup - I still vote for a something mildly Canadian-themed (as with Jade and Lapis Lazuli) with the icon since they're most-often associated with Canada, which I suggested previously to be a bottle (or bottles) of Maple syrup in the shape of a maple leaf - I linked to a picture or pictures, IIRC, of a reference to what I'm referring to in the second analysis.

Indeed, if I ever included Maple and named it “Syrup”, I would still certainly get the maple leaf into the icon and represent it with the most iconic type; somewhat like Gems, Citrus, or Furs.

Inawordyes said:
@Coral: You should talk to Harem and Ekmek about that, because Horem's been working on getting resources working on the water, though it's like kelp and sea-grass rather then something like Coral. Still, they've been making some good progress in getting that figured out, and if that's the only reason why coral isn't in (as in, they're completely done except for actually implementing them), then they may be able to help you get that sorted out or what they found out in the sea-resources thread in the graphics sub-forum may be able to help you out with what you need. Unless I'm misunderstanding somewhat what the issue is entirely, of course; haha, I'm not a modder really so it's always a possibility.

Thanks, I’ll have to check that out! Maybe it'll help me figure out the Ebony/Camp one too.

Inawordyes said:
@Dye: I actually forget what you changed it in the first place, haha; was it because they're purple was close to the pink of the Perfume?

I kind of forget too, haha. Yeah, I think because it was too similar to an early version of the perfume icon I was working on – even before the initial one I revealed. Actually, my very first one was a lazy endeavor where I changed Dye to blue, and then I just morphed the bottle a bit and changed the background color, while using the original magenta color, and was maybe going to throw a rose up in the background or front bottom of the bottle. :mischief:


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Okay, I think I’ll keep Perfume as is. I worked some things out. :goodjob:

Now, I'll try to write up this little idea I have...
 
I've been doing some DLL modding lately and it’s opened up A LOT more possibilities for me to do with some ideas or obstacles I previously faced. I’ll eventually release that, along with a few initial mods for it from my long list of proposed ideas. The Barathor DLL mod itself will do nothing alone; it’ll introduce more XML tags for new items or hardcoded values, but things will function the same. When you combine it with any one of my mods with my little DLL symbol on the portrait (or other modders’ mods who utilize/modify the tags in it), which will be comprised mostly of simple XML, then the modifications will take place. This way, players can choose what they want to use and play with; similar to whoward’s project (hopefully, some of my ideas would be worthy of inclusion!).

There may be some ideas which can be done in Lua alone, instead of modding the DLL, but I’m currently not very knowledgeable on how to do that -- modifying the DLL at least seems very efficient.


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I’ll start by saying that I've never been a big fan of the implementation of Mercantile city-states. It’s a just a slight bit awkward. Early on, 2 happiness for being friends; fine. But, ally with that CS and “bam!”, you could be rewarded with a total of 10 happiness. Then, as eras pass, that 10 happiness scales to… 11.

Now, there are other things to factor and consider. There are only 2 types of Mercantile luxuries, so that tries to somewhat balance the massive happiness potential, or at least cap it. Also, not counting the special porcelain or jewelry luxuries, the normal luxury assigned to the city-state is likely to be shared between a lot of other CS too.

I believe these two special Mercantile luxuries were introduced to add a bit of flavor to things and represent the trade of goods more, since if Mercantile CS just rewarded happiness (which would be easier to balance) it would be a bit boring and the connection to commerce would be a little blurrier.

Also, another awkward aspect of their implementation: if the Mercantile luxury is already obtained, along with the normal luxury (which can at least be traded), then becoming an ally of a Mercantile CS over just being friends becomes much less appealing since they offer no other bonuses besides the normal things, like fighting wars with you and supplying strategic resources.


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So, here’s the general idea.

Some of the normal luxuries are no longer assigned to city-state distribution. Actually, a city-state never gets any type of normal luxury that civs and the terrain receive.

Instead, similar to Mercantile city-states, ALL city-states receive a special luxury type instead.

Also, each type of city-state will “draw from” a limited pool of flavorful luxuries (I’m initially thinking 3, though, it may need to be 2. I think 4 would be too high). So, there will be Religious luxuries, Cultural luxuries, etc. Not only is this for flavor, but it will better control diversity so it doesn't get too out of control. So, civs/players focusing on only one type of city-state will probably receive less happiness from others who diversify the types of CS they ally with.

Also, Mercantile city-states get there bonuses tweaked for better scaling.



EDIT: another alternative could be to frontload the bonus less and make it +1/+2/+3 and then another +1/+2/+3 for allies instead.


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Benefits:

Greater city-state luxury diversity. You no longer have to see the same 3 luxuries distributed to a majority of city-states (roughly, 75% of them -- diversity can be worse between that 75% if one of those three luxuries are a very inflexible, picky luxury during placements).

More flavor introduced to the game. Civs can enjoy more man-made things like beer, textiles, etc. or additional natural goods like honey, clams, etc.

Awkwardness of Mercantile bonuses improved a bit between Friends/Allies.

Balance improved with better Mercantile scaling. Instead of +2/+10, +3/+11, +3/+11 you can potentially get +2/+6, +3/+8, +4/+10 instead.

More available luxuries for regional/random placement, outside of city-states, for civs.

More luxury types to bring into the game, via special city-state types, which would be difficult to represent on terrain.

Difficulties trying to place normal luxuries on potentially harsh, coastal city-state terrain (causing the city-state to further share another city-state/random luxury that’s more flexible, or resort to getting the regional luxury -- bad for the civ in that region) are eliminated.


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Themes:

Militaristic: this one is a little tougher. I’m just keeping it simple and going with food and drink, so this and Maritime will pretty much supply food goods. (Or, perhaps they could have raw non-food items, and will have more wood/rock materials. Then, Religious gets the food/drink items that aren't seafood?)

Maritime: this one is simple… seafood! I’m pretty set on these.

Cultural: this one I’d like to focus on man-made creative things.

Religious: this one is a little tougher as well, but I’m think man-made and non-food or drink goods. Preferably things with a monastery flavor to them (even though all these CS aren't cities filled with monks and such!), so literature and somewhat scientific types of things that would be developed in cloistered work or study. Also, crafted goods can work here as well. Also, as said above, perhaps Beer, Honey, Cheese etc. work better here.

Mercantile: this one is simple as well… already have two of them! Basically, fine man-made valuable, delicate goods. Glass symbolizes Venetian glass, and Venice was pretty Mercantile.


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Luxuries:

Militaristic:
Beer
Honey
Cheese

Maritime:
Clams
Squid
Shrimp

Cultural:
Garments / Clothing
Paintings
Furniture

Religious:
Paper / Papyrus / Books / Manuscripts
Medicine / Opium
Textiles / Wool

Mercantile:
Porcelain
Jewelry
Glass


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Other random ideas:
Spirits / Liquor (too modern?)
Yogurt
Vinegar
Syrup
Cider
Coral
Eel
Octopus
Lobster
Lutes (as in Violins, Guitars, etc.)
Musical Instruments (very long)
Mirrors
Shoes
Hats
Perfume
Flax
Sculptures
Figurines
Tapestries
Ironworks
Tools
Tin
Lead
Obsidian
Timber
Latex / Rubber

I wrote this in some haste, I hope I explained things well and didn't forget anything!
 
Wow, Barathor; an excellent design plan! City-State luxuries were always an interesting idea, but implemented somewhat vapidly. Looking forward to the progress of your design and ideas :)
 
I really am liking the idea Barathor! I may have to write up that third analysis and shift the direction of it towards City-State Luxuries (since it seems from your comments that your hard cap for the moment is 32, and with keeping Perfume, re-adding Ebony and including Cannabis and Lapis Lazuli, that's 31, and if you get Coral worked out, that's your final resource since you're basically done with it otherwise, haha). You know what, since I realized that the following paragraph was basically turning into one, I'll just do that right now while I'm thinking about it:

Spoiler :
ALOE/ALOE VERA -
Aloe is a genus of over 500 species of plants, native to Tropical and Southern Africa, as well as nearby Madagascar, Sardinia, and the Arabian Peninsula. Frequently cultivated as an ornamental plant, Aloe species have historically been used as an herbal medicine, with Aloe vera, also referred to as "true aloe", being the most well-known and also the most commonly used, as well as Aloe perryi and Aloe ferox.

Though known to be used historically since the first century AD, Aloe (specifically Aloe vera) is referred to as "the plant of immortality" on as early as 6,000 years ago on old stone carvings in Egypt, and it was given as a burial gift to deceased pharaohs. Aloe Vera was also employed by the ancient Greeks and Romans to treat wounds, while the yellowish liquid within the leaves of about 68 Aloe species, aloin, was favored as a laxative during the Middle Ages. Certain species of Aloe plants are also used in alternative medicine and first-aid, as their inner pulp and the aforementioned aloin can be used to relieve skin discomfort, and Aloe vera juice is commonly used to relieve digestive discomfort.
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I talked above about a third resource I would have talked about had I started writing this analysis but left unnamed. That resource is Aloe Vera - or, more generally and inclusive, the Aloe genus of plants. I got to thinking about Aloe Vera offhandedly a few days ago because I saw Horem's terrain graphic. I had thought, after you included Olives, that it was the most glaring luxury omission, but then I researched it to write this out and discovered that it's thought to be extinct in the wild - which kinda puts a damper on things, haha but then again it obviously wasn't originally extinct in the wild - and while widespread in its use, there isn't anything particularly "luxurious" about it, at least in the sense to merit being one of "the 32".

But, that being said, with you wanting to include City-State luxuries (I remember making a comment suggesting if that was your plan, but I looked back and can't seem to find it in my last two posts, so I may have erased it, haha), Aloe Vera is actually a pretty good candidate for inclusion there, even more so if you ditch the specifics and include the entire Aloe family by dropping the vera (in this case it's different from Lapis Lazuli, as more species than A. Vera have been used for its purposes, though obviously A. Vera is the most well-known and generally what it's referred to as regardless if you ever look at a bottle of burn ointment that uses it.

Because you suggested Science-y stuff to be included under Religious, and I saw medicine in the list of potentials, I think that Aloe/Aloe Vera is probably one of the best naturally-occurring yet still somewhat man-made luxuries you possibly include, and in my opinion should be a definite confirm for one of the spots.


It's almost 5AM here, haha, so I will add more analyses to this sometime later, but I think that's a good start to #3

Because you had intended to perhaps relegate Perfumes to the City-States, I was curious as I couldn't really tell when I read your post: Are you just going to include them in the way that Porcelain, Jewelry, and Glass already are (which is a luxury underneath the city-state that doesn't necessarily have a terrain graphic), or, in the case of Perfume as it is now, would there also be some City-State-specific luxuries with terrain graphics (from your list, I could see Vinegar, Syrup, Cidar, Tin, Lead, and Obsidian - especially Tin, considering you already included it previously and so have the graphics to do so)? Also, you mention having up to 2/3 luxuries per CS type in-game at once, and I wasn't sure if that meant just drawing from the different pools up to 2/3 of each type, or if there'd only be 2/3 CS type-specific luxuries period?
 
Thanks, guys!

Aloe, that's a good one, Inawordyes.

I thought of some other ones. Also, perhaps a better theme for Religious CS is medicinal and/or spiritual goods? Maybe some of these other ones can inspire more ideas.

Also, I'm still thinking 3 each would be best and most balanced; some are hard to narrow down.



Inawordyes, to answer your question, I just plan on these CS luxuries occupying the city tile, with no terrain graphics, similar to the existing Jewelry and Porcelain luxuries.

I'll also probably revert things back so that upon annexing/puppeting a CS the special luxury remains. Otherwise, conquering a CS won't have a chance to reward any luxuries.

EDIT: And to answer your other question, I plan on each CS type drawing from their own individual pool of luxuries.
 
T
I thought of some other ones. Also, perhaps a better theme for Religious CS is medicinal and/or spiritual goods? Maybe some of these other ones can inspire more ideas.

Also, I'm still thinking 3 each would be best and most balanced; some are hard to narrow down.


Would you consider Belladonna, instead of Opium, perhaps? Or hemlock? I merely ask if you'd consider switching it out, because I intend for Opium to be one of my "colonial" resources, discovered through the Exploration tree, and the mod in which this is designed has a dependency and is partially developed with yours in mind. It is, of course, completely at your discretion to do as you please :)
 
Would you consider Belladonna, instead of Opium, perhaps? Or hemlock? I merely ask if you'd consider switching it out, because I intend for Opium to be one of my "colonial" resources, discovered through the Exploration tree, and the mod in which this is designed has a dependency and is partially developed with yours in mind. It is, of course, completely at your discretion to do as you please :)

Those aren't final, I'm just tossing some ideas around. Things may end up very different.

Those alternatives aren't very well known choices (to me anyway) and are kind of out there; I don't think I'd use them.

But, things won't be hard-coded and it will be modular. I was planning on making an addition to the Resources table which will describe what type of CS luxury it is (default being none). Then, when the game chooses the CS luxuries for each, it rolls for only the ones of a particular number.

So, other modders can simply mix numbers around, add more luxuries of their own, and remove them. Perhaps I'll also create a global XML tag which can be enabled and allow city-states to roll for luxuries out of all five pools for a big free for all.

I'll also have a backup "if" statement that will cover any type of new city-state that might added alongside the existing five, just in case. It would just roll for any type of CS luxury, which is better than nothing.
 
Have you considered adding buildings which make use of the new resources? At the moment only the mint and monastery (and the lighthouse to an extent) buff resources, making those resources potentially more valuable than others.

Example: Apothecary, +1 food(health) and science on tea and cannabis.
 
Have you considered adding buildings which make use of the new resources? At the moment only the mint and monastery (and the lighthouse to an extent) buff resources, making those resources potentially more valuable than others.

Example: Apothecary, +1 food(health) and science on tea and cannabis.

Yes, down the road, I plan on conceptualizing some more bonuses via buildings. Currently, the only luxuries to receive a yield bonus are: wine, incense, gold, silver, ivory, and marble.
 
Update:

I think I have the resources finalized (since I feel good about the choices). I also think I'm going to stick to only 2 for each CS type. In the chart, I have a 3rd backup if I change my mind on things.

With Religious, I was struggling to narrow down the choices for the medicinal/religious plants. It was also starting to look more like a Culinary CS, with options like Garlic, Sage, Basil, Mushrooms, haha. So, I just went with a very general type: Medicine. Flavor-wise: I'll represent it with an icon of a mortar and pestle with some leafy herbs around/in it, so users can use their imagination. And Books is another general name for users to use their imagination on what it represents... which could be manuscripts early on, then later printed texts. They could be religious scriptures, fictional novels, or they could contain non-fictional knowledge... anything.



I was observing and playing around with some numbers to find a good balance -- I don't want to just flood the game's city-states with a bunch of luxuries and throw things off.

I plan on recording many more examples for myself, but here's three of them so far to get a very small taste (Default settings; Standard):



As can be seen, city-state totals are pretty wild and Religious and Militaristic have less weight (Note: I know this and I'm not just going by these limited examples). Also, Luxury totals can be quite random as well with very dominant types.

The second chart in the middle displays what things would look like if the averages worked out nearly perfectly for Standard and Huge. 25% weight for each of the 3 city-state exclusive luxuries (75%), a total 25% weight for all randoms + potentially the regional luxury (so, just choose 1 type until the default CS total is reached; Standard = 5, Huge = 8 total randoms), and 50% weight for each Mercantile luxury.

The third, rightmost chart is what things would look like if the averages worked out nearly perfectly with this mod. Unique totals are not very far off and distributions are more even.

Once I get some real examples of the mod, I'm sure on Standard there will be some CS types that aren't represented as much as the others and/or that roll the same 1st luxury instead of the 2nd one; and the total of 10 could become less.

Another thing to note is that, with the mod, up to 10 luxuries are exclusive to city-states and will be found nowhere else. Under default settings, this total can go no higher than 5 (3 city-state exclusive luxuries + porcelain + jewelry), so that's another boost to consider and which also supports my decision to restrict things to 2 types each instead of 3.

Right now, I'm currently working on introducing some new city-states and tweaking some existing ones, so that each type has equal representation and the weights are more balanced when the game randomly chooses them for maps. Because, without a balanced total of city-state types, the balance between each city-state luxury type gets disrupted. So, I'm currently researching lots of countries and cities right now. :) Since I like things to look and sound very polished, as if they were a part of the game, I'm also going to try and favor things that can use the existing music files, especially the unused ones. I also downloaded an audio file editor if I need to replace the initial sound effect that plays, depending on its type, when a CS is contacted.
 
The Coral test was successful! I'm very glad since the land luxuries are flooding the pool and the mod really needed another water luxury. It didn't seem too difficult; I'm not sure what held me back last time. Now I just have to tweak and polish things so it looks nicer.

- - - - - - - -

Also, I came up with a new idea. I will incorporate a 3rd luxury type for each CS type. But, this 3rd will remain inactive until the total of one type is equal to or greater than 25% of the total of all CS types in a game (initially went with greater than 20%, since there's five of them, but bumped it up).

Example: Standard/Default: 16 total CS
floor(16/4 + 0.5) = 4
Cultural 5, Mercantile 4, Religious 2, Militaristic 2, Maritime 3

Cultural and Mercantile will have their 3rd luxury type activated as a candidate and all other CS types will remain at the default 2.

Example: Huge/Default: 24 total CS
floor(24/4 + 0.5) = 6
Cultural 6, Mercantile 6, Religious 3, Militaristic 5, Maritime 4

Cultural, Mercantile get 3 luxury types each and the rest remain at 2.

- - - - - - - -

I also came up with some more luxury ideas, one of which I'm very seriously considering since it's unique: Pets. This could represent all kinds, from cats/dogs to very exotic animals that are traded. The icon would probably be a portrait of a husky/wolf if implemented. I would also most likely assign this to Militaristic.
 
Congrats on getting Coral to work! Since you have yet to polish them completely, plus with your ideas for the 3rd-luxury handling and Pets for the Militaristic states (both of which are really cool), how long do you think it'd take to have everything completed and the next version released? And also, you had three "under development" things in the OP, did you ever get those worked out for the new version?

On the topic of the CS weight affecting how many luxuries appear per city-state, you could theoretically have any number of CS luxuries and it wouldn't affect balance so much, as only a maximum of three could appear per CS-type in any given game. Something to keep in mind for later revisions, as three is good for the first release of the idea, and you can expand the number as time goes on (I have a list of more luxury proposals to write-up that I haven't gotten to actually writing yet, maybe they'll spark some interest later on like the others have), with the game handling the balance through your mechanics the same way it does with the Major luxuries and the extras just being in the pool to provide more diversity to draw from between games.
 
...Yeah, I can't really say I think adding "cannabis" is really a good idea. There's already wine and incense; that's probably enough drugs in the game. (which is why, incidentally, the game got an E10+ rating and not, say, just E - for "Drug Reference") Same goes for opium, beer and liquor. I can just imagine... starting a game surrounded by wine, incense, coffee (if you consider caffeine a drug), tea, cannabis, tobacco and opium, and being allied with CSs that provide you with beer and liquor. That would be an interesting game... for your citizens :crazyeye:

Other than that, the new ideas sound good, except for Yogurt... and vinegar? :confused: I can't think of any place that really excels in producing vinegar (well, maybe Germany, but Wittenberg isn't a mercantile CS) or yogurt. And it wouldn't make sense to make a yogurt plantation. :lol:
 
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