SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

Doshin · Mar 19, 2015

Kaitzilla said:
If we gift Willem on T95, we won't get it back T96.

That's interesting. Thanks.

Does this limit the gold an AI can give to make peace? (I expect that it does, and if not, there is the loss of pop too).

----

I think the hints would need to be incorrectly ordered to affect anything we do in the next 25 turns. So I'd prefer to gift 14 Workers later than to delay the DOW now, unless someone feels strongly about this.

Kaitzilla said:
Spoiler :

I don't know honestly. Does a +1 vision chariot Doshin mentioned make a difference in getting across with the Iron City 100 border pop?

City culture only expands from: Land ---> Coast ---> Ocean ---> ~~Ocean~~, stopping short at the second Ocean tile to prevent crossings before Astronomy.

Spoiler :

A Sentry Chariot doesn't let us cross, but grants pre-Optics +1 vision:

Spoiler :

Duckweed · Mar 19, 2015

shakabrade said:
Regarding settling more cities:

It is much easier to WB 20 island cities than to produce them while also producing other needed stuff. Research is crawling, can you maintain a stack in the enemy territory composed of 1 movers who take cities slowly and still research? What do we get out of Lib with that?

You should reload our SGOTM16 saves to take a look at how we kept expansion through war and settlers.

Is our military progress slower due to producing settlers and WBs?

Settlers come from back cities, not from the 3 front cities with barracks.

Also, maintenance would be higher because you can't settle 20 cities that close in a real game.

In the real game, there are only 4 island site currently available and they are within the range that I showed. The reason why I showed 30 cities is because I tried to show you the worst case where the number of city maintenance reaches the cap of 7g.

If we run more expensive civics than in the test, add more turns to payback. With Mids and cheap libraries, you can escape most of these questions, but we don't have them. Yet.

The explanations you give are simply too linear. We are talking about trying to optimize something here. With those hammers and wealth, you can either get more army and open another front, invest wealth into research and get better units and other perks. Then you compare with that. 45 turns of payback can be doubled. What happened in the end game for us was getting beakers for more than 1Tech per turn and we couldn't return the turns wasted before, simply due to this limit.

Again, there's no conflict of producing army and settlers since we already setup 3 front cities for military build.

I'll give up on this issue from now on. Call vote on unsolved issues. Let's get the game rolling. We need to play at least 10 turns every 5 days.

Take a glance of your save. My thought

Too many Swords, 5 should be all right. we need 3~4 spears for defense against HAs and 3~4 Phalanx when DOWing Shaka if we want at least 2 stacks. 1 Trireme should be enough. Too many worker build in the screen.
I would not chop the forests outside the culture (those 3 workers around Knossos could farm the tile 3S2E of Knossos to be able to chain-irrigate other tile in Knossos)

Argos: Settler
Athens : should start and whip another settler earlier
Thebes: Prefer to whip a settler than a trireme here
Corinth: why can't finish the farm and work on a farm instead of the wheat to control the happy cap. Athens could take the wheat to speedup the 2nd settler

Last, Don't settle any island city before we make sure that we could trade Monarchy, so better to send the 1st settler to the furthest island -- east of the whale site.

Doshin · Mar 20, 2015

I ran a test focusing on Athens, Corinth, and Thebes, using just one Worker. I'd hope that the final save has something like the following:

Spoiler :

Not:

Spoiler :

----

The Trireme is out on T101:

Spoiler :

First Settler and WB are out on T103–04:

Spoiler :

The anticipated civic switch is T104. So we can move the Settler and Work Boat eastwards while we are in revolt. East retains maximum flexibility if we have been unable to trade for Monarchy:

Spoiler :

Second Settler and WB are out on T108–09, each delayed 1 turn by the civic switch:

Spoiler :

Amsterdam could be captured as early as T102 and T105 is also likely. So you need to plan around that, as I pointed out as clearly as I could.

-----

On T108, after the Monarchy/Bureaucracy civic switch, the three cities will look like:

Spoiler :

----

shakabrade said:
Anyway, the test with lots of issues and some mismanagement:

Spoiler :

The posted test has a lot of problems. I won't comment until you post something that you like. I would also be happy to post my micro for Athens/Corinth/Thebes.

I am sorry if this sounds curt, but I am getting bored with the philosophical arguments about life/Civ and the absence of pictures/tests/plans/questions/play.

shakabrade · Mar 20, 2015

@Doshin, team

You only speak the truth and I respect that you are choosing the more direct approach over the more common subtle one.

It is true that I can't keep up the pace. This is anything but a casual game I had in mind when the team was being formed, but I guess with this line-up, team can't but strive for perfection. I don't share the same enthusiasm and am effectively the weakest link here. I am also wasting great deal of your life by not putting in the same contribution and I think that, physically, I can't do that.

Our goals aren't compatible and we should split. We'll all be happier. If my approach to work and family was the same, I'd certainly get fired and separated so it is only fair.

If you want, I can be in so-called advisor form and try to bring some different perspective sometimes, or you don't want me to take any credit and just kick me out to get some satisfaction.

Doshin, if we ever meet, I'll let you have a free punch to my stomach.

Duckweed · Mar 20, 2015

I have thought that I have skipped most of the subtle micro parts in recent SGOTMs, and only focused on macro and some micros that are big and I can spot in the first glance, such as city build. However, it seems that you can't even take the advices regarding the macros, such as expansion to south islands. As I repeated a few times "read, think", you have given me a deep impression that you disagree and ignore this all the time. True, I'm a scientist, but I also do a lot of benchworks and our experiments are very expensive and time-consuming. I have always tried to read a lot and think carefully before designing experiments to reduce the waste of time and money.

The opening part is close to the end and we are going to give up test game probably after this turn session. However, even though, everyone has to play according to the consensus of macros and some micro suggestion that others suggested. What we did in SGOTM12 is to play short sessions so that others could take a look at the saves and point out the mistakes.

shakabrade, If you think my thought is fair and have no problem with it, you are welcome to play anytime that you feel that you could devote.

For now, if others have time and willing to take this tedious session in shakabrade mind, that's great, otherwise, as the last choice, I could take this session as I'm unfamiliar with the micro as others.

Doshin · Mar 20, 2015

I can play until ~T107, since I've tested the micro for the hardest cities (micro can be improved) and Kaitzilla has only just finished playing. However, this takes me to about 60 turns, which is a lot.

I am happy for someone else to take over. But we have lost a month now, and I think I can play sooner than anyone but Kaitzilla. Please step in if you have the weekend free. :thumbsup:

Some questions which bothered me yesterday:

Whip Argos (Fish City 1-turn sooner) or slow build the Settler (wastes some Worker turns, 1-turn delay). If we slow build, we could 3-pop whip the next 2 Settlers, but Monarchy is in soon as well.
Library in Corinth. Like? Dislike? I build it on T100, so it helps Civil Service research for 3 turns. Corinth has more than Athens on T95, btw.
Trireme: do we want one? To guard Fish Islands in advance, we need to build this in one of Athens/Thebes/Corinth.
Iron City: what should we build after the Granary?

For me: (1) a 2-pop whip is ok, if the micro works out; (2) I like this. The timing with whip anger works out well; (3) yes, because it is safer and can push east to Isabella; (4) I'm unsure, but maybe a Galley to send our Scout to Elizabeth (and then load a Sentry Chariot).

My PPP will be less detailed than before, but I will try to convey the key points in summary form and pics.

Duckweed · Mar 20, 2015

We need 4~5 galleys ready for invading England, so it's fine to produce a galley from Iron city, on the other hand, I'm also fine to produce archers for happiness. Agree with other issues.

You don't need to present the PPP with detailed tile management and worker moves. The final save and some screenshots are good enough.

shakabrade · Mar 20, 2015

Duckweed said:
I have thought that I have skipped most of the subtle micro parts in recent SGOTMs, and only focused on macro and some micros that are big and I can spot in the first glance, such as city build. However, it seems that you can't even take the advices regarding the macros, such as expansion to south islands. As I repeated a few times "read, think", you have given me a deep impression that you disagree and ignore this all the time. True, I'm a scientist, but I also do a lot of benchworks and our experiments are very expensive and time-consuming. I have always tried to read a lot and think carefully before designing experiments to reduce the waste of time and money.

True. I didn't read carefully, since micro is very hard for me to read before playing. We also have a misunderstanding here. I have no objections to 2 more island cities, and only have problems with 13th city before the civic switch. But I wasn't certain about more island cities. 14th and 15th city were mentioned as island cities too, and I don't think that we need them and any more of them prior to extra trade routes, or double food.

Regarding testing, I do tend to ignore other tests when testing because there is no use of 2-3 people running the same tests. I never think of a test game as a finished product. It is something like different design, with its merits and flaws. We usually have at least one alternative in development in my company. Other things should be explored too and Kaitzilla and Doshin don't really need help with micro.

The opening part is close to the end and we are going to give up test game probably after this turn session. However, even though, everyone has to play according to the consensus of macros and some micro suggestion that others suggested.

Advice is not a decision, IMO. I missed to explicitly see that decisions were made. My impression was that we go for the first suggested path.

What we did in SGOTM12 is to play short sessions so that others could take a look at the saves and point out the mistakes.

shakabrade, If you think my thought is fair and have no problem with it, you are welcome to play anytime that you feel that you could devote.

I have problems with civilization becoming yet another item in my schedule, it is not about me not agreeing. I simply feel no joy and lack motivation to devote as much as you guys do. That makes me feel bad although I have said before people were even recruited that casual game is what I want this time. If I could be someone who doesn't have to be here, it'd be better for me and for the team.

For now, if others have time and willing to take this tedious session in shakabrade mind, that's great, otherwise, as the last choice, I could take this session as I'm unfamiliar with the micro as others.

Kaitzilla and Doshin are into it 100%. They'll have to fight over it.

Doshin said:
I can play until ~T107, since I've tested the micro for the hardest cities (micro can be improved) and Kaitzilla has only just finished playing. However, this takes me to about 60 turns, which is a lot.

I am happy for someone else to take over. But we have lost a month now, and I think I can play sooner than anyone but Kaitzilla. Please step in if you have the weekend free.

Some questions which bothered me yesterday:

Whip Argos (Fish City 1-turn sooner) or slow build the Settler (wastes some Worker turns, 1-turn delay). If we slow build, we could 3-pop whip the next 2 Settlers, but Monarchy is in soon as well.

You can make it 2T sooner thanks to circumnavigation bonus if you whip on T95 and get WB in time. Worker chops in NFish time perfectly. NFish brings commerce to the empire and faster CS, if that is what we would want.

Library in Corinth. Like? Dislike? I build it on T100, so it helps Civil Service
research for 3 turns. Corinth has more than Athens on T95, btw.

Maybe a fast Trireme to open up more trade routes sooner and to face less barb galleys on the way there. After that, Library would be good.

Trireme: do we want one? To guard Fish Islands in advance, we need to build this in one of Athens/Thebes/Corinth.

First one from Corinth, and second one from Iron city.

Iron City: what should we build after the Granary?

A trireme.

For me: (1) a 2-pop whip is ok, if the micro works out; (2) I like this. The timing with whip anger works out well; (3) yes, because it is safer and can push east to Isabella; (4) I'm unsure, but maybe a Galley to send our Scout to Elizabeth (and then load a Sentry Chariot).

Galley can be built in Deer Gems too. A lot closer.

My PPP will be less detailed than before, but I will try to convey the key points in summary form and pics.

Good luck!

shakabrade · Mar 20, 2015

Duckweed said:
We need 4~5 galleys ready for invading England, so it's fine to produce a galley from Iron city, on the other hand, I'm also fine to produce archers for happiness. Agree with other issues.

You don't need to present the PPP with detailed tile management and worker moves. The final save and some screenshots are good enough.

If settler is whipped in Argos, I think that settler when Argos reaches size 5 takes 6 turns (that could be 13th city, after the civic switch). So, Archers can wait after the Trireme in Iron city and still get in time.

Duckweed · Mar 20, 2015

@shakabrade

It's not about the level of devotion, it's more about your willingness to take suggestions. SGOTM is a game that shows the consensus play, not one man/woman's skill. Therefore, the active player MUST consider all the suggestions, agree or disagree with strong arguments.

Your problem in the previous and current turn sessions is that you disagree with arguments of little thinking. I have tried to counter your arguments many times and you just come with more arguments that are obvious wrong. In my impression, your skill level is far better than what you have demonstrated recently.

I have no objections to 2 more island cities, and only have problems with 13th city before the civic switch. But I wasn't certain about more island cities. 14th and 15th city were mentioned as island cities too, and I don't think that we need them and any more of them prior to extra trade routes, or double food.

I'll counter your arguments about expansion for the last time. What's the difference of settling 2 more or 4 more island cities? As I said, any island city with a Fish is a gain if settled ~40 turns before the end of the game if you ever read this. We have 3 cities Athens, Argos, and Thebe which could produce all those settlers in short time, and even in your test, those cities did not produce military units (although military build is one of your previous arguments). If you read my other point "I showed you the worst case commercial cost of settling island cities -- no more than 20C", I already countered your major argument -- commercial cost of settling island cities and you still have not understood the meaning.

While you are looking at the cost of settling 12 and 13 cities and are happy that there's no economical drain for these 2 cities. Have you tried to think one step further that we are going to capture a lot of cities and the cost of 12 and 13 cities will be the cost of 14 and 15 cities after capturing 2 cities and will be more after capturing more cities? That's the reason why I showed you the cost of settling 20 more island cities and showed you that even in the worst case, the cost of settling those cities is far less than they could contribute soon. Do you think 2 more cities (14th and 15th) -- 40g would affect anything for the next 40 turns?

shakabrade · Mar 20, 2015

Duckweed said:
@shakabrade

It's not about the level of devotion, it's more about your willingness to take suggestions. SGOTM is a game that shows the consensus play, not one man/woman's skill. Therefore, the active player MUST consider all the suggestions, agree or disagree with strong arguments.

Your problem in the previous and current turn sessions is that you disagree with arguments of little thinking. I have tried to counter your arguments many times and you just come with more arguments that are obvious wrong. In my impression, your skill level is far better than what you have demonstrated recently.

What you are saying is basically what I think sometimes about my boss.

It is about devotion, because devotion influences the time I am willing to give to this game over something else, and time yields better tests and better decisions.
I am ashamed when I see the effort Kaitzilla puts into graphical display while I am playing with a stopwatch, eager to do something else.
We simply don't look for the same thing out of this.

Obvious is very relative. You have one view, other person another, than you add bad expressions and communication and than you get farther away than what you really are.
You, for instance, want me to explain you my claims with your logic and your way of doing that. I don't think like that and don't find it necessary since I am also convinced that I am right. This works, pretty much, for everyone.
What would be fair is to compromise, but I'll typically lose interest for a long discussion knowing your persistence as I lack motivation for that. I stopped pushing GLH (which we luckily got) and stopped pushing long-term approach, although I was certain in that. I didn't convince enough people and accepted the team decision without any problem although I knew it was wrong. I admit that early Currency and tasks should have been rewarded by better early tasks, though and don't find Oracle much worse than GLH.

I'll counter your arguments about expansion for the last time. What's the difference of settling 2 more or 4 more island cities? As I said, any island city with a Fish is a gain if settled ~40 turns before the end of the game if you ever read this. We have 3 cities Athens, Argos, and Thebe which could produce all those settlers in short time, and even in your test, those cities did not produce military units (although military build is one of your previous arguments). If you read my other point "I showed you the worst case commercial cost of settling island cities -- no more than 20C", I already countered your major argument -- commercial cost of settling island cities and you still have not understood the meaning.

While you are looking at the cost of settling 12 and 13 cities and are happy that there's no economical drain for these 2 cities. Have you tried to think one step further that we are going to capture a lot of cities and the cost of 12 and 13 cities will be the cost of 14 and 15 cities after capturing 2 cities and will be more after capturing more cities? That's the reason why I showed you the cost of settling 20 more island cities and showed you that even in the worst case, the cost of settling those cities is far less than they could contribute soon. Do you think 2 more cities (14th and 15th) -- 40g would affect anything for the next 40 turns?

Incrementally, nothing has a dramatic impact. But you must draw a line somewhere. 55 cities empires are too big, for instance, and we've had those without thinking. Mid-game research can't be sped up by trading or corps power and that is the bottleneck of our research. If we had trading partners for advanced techs, we could expand more. The faster we get to corporations, the faster our research can explode, the better the date. That seems obvious to me.

We don't even know whether that can be avoided with other tasks...
I know we've expanded with no limits before and will also now if that isn't questioned, and even after that.

Kaitzilla · Mar 20, 2015

shakabrade said:
...
It is true that I can't keep up the pace. This is anything but a casual game I had in mind when the team was being formed, but I guess with this line-up, team can't but strive for perfection...

We were supposed to be playing a more casual game yes.

With the test game, it is really easy to get carried away.

In the past, I tried hard to casually play in SGOTM19, but my interest died and I dropped out halfway through.
For me, the fun of SGOTM is the unlimited amount of scheming possible and trying to beat a certain team that always takes my gold laurels. :mischief:

I don't really have an answer for having fun without spending too much time. (The Eternal Problem)
If you want to advise instead of play, that's perfectly ok.

Kaitzilla · Mar 20, 2015

Doshin said:
I can play until ~T107, since I've tested the micro for the hardest cities (micro can be improved) and Kaitzilla has only just finished playing. However, this takes me to about 60 turns, which is a lot.

I am happy for someone else to take over. But we have lost a month now, and I think I can play sooner than anyone but Kaitzilla. Please step in if you have the weekend free.

Some questions which bothered me yesterday:

Whip Argos (Fish City 1-turn sooner) or slow build the Settler (wastes some Worker turns, 1-turn delay). If we slow build, we could 3-pop whip the next 2 Settlers, but Monarchy is in soon as well.

Library in Corinth. Like? Dislike? I build it on T100, so it helps Civil Service research for 3 turns. Corinth has more than Athens on T95, btw.

Trireme: do we want one? To guard Fish Islands in advance, we need to build this in one of Athens/Thebes/Corinth.

Iron City: what should we build after the Granary?

For me: (1) a 2-pop whip is ok, if the micro works out; (2) I like this. The timing with whip anger works out well; (3) yes, because it is safer and can push east to Isabella; (4) I'm unsure, but maybe a Galley to send our Scout to Elizabeth (and then load a Sentry Chariot).

My PPP will be less detailed than before, but I will try to convey the key points in summary form and pics.

I have plans this weekend, so the earliest I could take up the game would be Tuesday.
The deadline is May 8th which is 7 full weeks away, so it isn't crunch time just yet.

===================

I support starting Meditation T96 and finishing it T97 to create a huge overflow.
Teching Meditation allows us to keep Literature when we trade Construction to Mansa for Code of Laws.
Keeping Literature means we can hopefully trade Civil Service+Literature for Machinery or Feudalism later.
It also lets us complete Civil Service T103, which means we can settle our iceball city sooner and capture Amsterdam 1 turn sooner, possibly saving the life of 1 of our units if Willem whips a new archer.

I support settling the fish tundra cities.
Our main endgame corporation will be Sid's Sushi.
Mining Inc. will be terrible with the lack of gold,silver,iron,copper.
Even if we go Communism, I've been convinced those 4 cities will be a net benefit, especially thanks to Doshin's 1 free worker idea.

I'm slightly against whipping Argos.
If you really want to whip it, I won't mind.

Library in Corinth is ok.
Other good choice is another worker who can farm or chop Odeon.

We need 1 trireme yes.
If barb galleys overrun our iceball cities, it will be a huge setback for them.

Iron City should chop+whip a trireme or galleys after Granary in my opinion.
It is a great city for making naval vessels.

Hmmm, 6 swords is ok with me military-wise, not sure why Duckweed satisfied with only 5. I love swords!

Doshin · Mar 20, 2015

Turn 105 test. Please let me know what you think.

Overview:

Spoiler :

When troops reached the DOW line, I moved them to the marked tile. We have:

T97: 1 Sword
T98: 1 Sword 1 Catapult
T99: 2 Swords 1 Catapult
T100: 2 Swords
T101: 2 Catapults 1 Sword
T102: 1 Catapult 1 Phalanx 1 Chariot
T103: 1 Catapult 1 Sword
T104: 1 Phalanx 1 Chariot
T105: 1 Catapult 1 Spear

More Catapults and Spears are queued in the three military production centers.

We can switch to Civil Service on T104 or T105. I don't mind skipping Meditation if Louis doesn't get Monarchy on T96/7.

I'd like to look at where we will need roads to move our stacks, because we can spare a Worker towards the end of the set.

Duckweed · Mar 20, 2015

@Kaitzilla

Either in your or shakabrade's save, there are 9 swords and 0 spearman. I will care about whether there are 4~5 swords as soon as possible as that affects whether we are able to steal a city, but won't care about 5 or 6 swordmans. The component of a stack should be half catas and half other (2 spear +2 Phalanx + swords) to make sure that the stack won't be wiped out before attack.

Duckweed · Mar 20, 2015

@Doshin

A few questions

Why 2nd trireme around Iron city, unless Liz is our 2nd target, we won't need it.
Too many swords in my mind. Some of them should be cata or spear. We might lose a couple swords when taking Amsterdam. Dowing Shaka (especially dealing with his SOD) mainly relies on catas, swords won't be better for clearance, but weak on defense.
What's the goal of worker SW of Knossos, roading?
Horse tile should be better than farm.

Doshin · Mar 21, 2015

Some thoughts:

We might be able to produce the Argos Settler 1 turn sooner. I didn't test this, but we'd need to put OF from the Work Boat into a Settler instead of a Forge: i.e. Settler (whip to size 3) ---> WB (OF, @ size 4, x1 Scientist) ---> Settler (OF, @size 4, run x2 Scientists) ---> Forge (grow to size 5, run x2 Scientists) ---> Settler (stagnate). We'd lose –6H and –1C but could settle another city 1 turn sooner.
Horse City could produce a Work Boat for an island before a Lighthouse. It only *needs* 1 Worker, but it will be hard to chop here when we are at war with Shaka. In fact, it might be better to ignore the Lighthouse altogether in favor of units.
I'm trying to connect the Tundra Fur as soon as possible without compromising growth in Horse City. Not many AI have access to Fur.

Kaitzilla said:
If Mansa would just trade us copper, we could chop out the Colossus.
That would make the arctic fish islands more attractive yes?

It's not like we are going to rush for Astronomy now, so it might be worth it.

I quite like this idea. It depends entirely on getting Mansa's second Copper, but I think that, even with the Colossus' short-life span, it would be worth it.

The main difficulty (apart from not having Copper or Willem's cities :lol:

) is that Utrecht's Forests might be better used to spread a religion. We're not in Organized Religion, we should probably pick *one* Jewish city to build a Monastery (60H) and then generate 40H per turn for Missionaries.

----

Duckweed said:
Why 2nd trireme around Iron city, unless Liz is our 2nd target, we won't need it.

I'm a bit undecided about the build here (Galley/Archer/Trireme?).

I'm not sure if Shaka or Willem will try to pillage the seafood tiles around Amsterdam/The Hague after they leave revolt.

Too many swords in my mind. Some of them should be cata or spear. We might lose a couple swords when taking Amsterdam. Dowing Shaka (especially dealing with his SOD) mainly relies on catas, swords won't be better for clearance, but weak on defense.

What date range would you estimate for a Shaka DOW? I'm trying to prioritize Swords for the initial invasion, with reinforcement Catapults and Spears to arrive when we DOW Shaka.

One Spear is already produced for the Western Shaka stack, and I think Knossos will whip another ~T107. Sparta's next whip will produce a Catapult and a Spear with the OF.

What's the goal of worker SW of Knossos, roading?

He will go with the stack (build a road somewhere between Utrecht <---> Amsterdam <---> The Hague) or road: The Hague <---> umgungundlovu.

Horse tile should be better than farm.

Kaitzilla said:
I support starting Meditation T96 and finishing it T97 to create a huge overflow.
Teching Meditation allows us to keep Literature when we trade Construction to Mansa for Code of Laws.
Keeping Literature means we can hopefully trade Civil Service+Literature for Machinery or Feudalism later.
It also lets us complete Civil Service T103, which means we can settle our iceball city sooner and capture Amsterdam 1 turn sooner, possibly saving the life of 1 of our units if Willem whips a new archer.

We might be able to complete Civil Service on T103 without Meditation. We only need a 20% slider to finish this in the test, and we have many more trade routes in the real save.

I'm not sure how many trade routes we will lose when we DOW, though, which will slow us down.

Duckweed · Mar 21, 2015

We are going to stop the war with William after taking 2nd city. Shaka's coastal city is far away and AI's usually won't send galley that far. If you are not sure, it would not hurt to produce archers or galleys.

Depends on when we could capture Ams, what's the loss and where Shaka's SOD is resting, we might be able to DOW shortly after T105. We need 2 spears to protect the east and 2 spears to protect the major SOD.

Doshin · Mar 21, 2015

You can see the shift in the type of units that reach the front line:

Doshin said:
T97: 1 Sword
T98: 1 Sword 1 Catapult
T99: 2 Swords 1 Catapult
T100: 2 Swords
T101: 2 Catapults 1 Sword
T102: 1 Catapult 1 Phalanx 1 Chariot
T103: 1 Catapult 1 Sword
T104: 1 Phalanx 1 Chariot
T105: 1 Catapult 1 Spear

More Catapults and Spears are queued in the three military production centers.

Edit: to compare with the earlier test:

Kaitzilla said:
DOW LINE (The turn a unit crosses into it)
T97 - 1 sword
T98 - 1 sword, 1 catapult
T99 - 2 swords, 1 catapult
T100 - 2 catapults
T101 - 1 sword
T102 - 1 catapult
T103 - 2 swords, 1 chariot (will hopefully be medic someday)
T104 - 2 swords, 1 catapult
T105 - 1 catapult

Stealing Kaitzilla's pic:

Spoiler :

T102 would be the best capture date, if we see Shaka's troops moving in too.
T105 should be safe if we go it alone.
T105 looks like the best capture date for the Hague. T106/7 if Shaka offers no help at all.

We'll need a few turns to consolidate and heal after that.

I'd like to skip the Lighthouse in Horse City to help produce the second stack.

Duckweed · Mar 21, 2015

Ams capture: 2 swords + 1cata if we are lucky with Shaka's help.

Hague's capture would be 3 catas + 4~5 other units.

From your save, reinforcements from Sparta and Myc won't be ready in 4 turns, which is T109, should be the latest time that we DOW shaka. Therefore, it's better to have more catas and spears ready than Swords.

I'd like to attack Utrecht from 1SW than 1E if that's where Shaka's SOD rests.

Edit: If you feel difficult to change builds, I'm fine with the current.

Good night.

SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

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Praise Vivec!

Deity

Praise Vivec!

Lord Croissant

Lord Croissant

jolly yellow giant

Attachments

Deity

Deity

jolly yellow giant

Deity

jolly yellow giant

Deity

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