SGOTM 21 - Xteam

Let's see if we can get away with switching PPP formats to being more high-level. It's not certain that this approach will work, so it may have to be tweaked as we go.

PPP
Commerce
Gift 166 Gold to Willem for Elizabeth #3 clue
Tech Aesthetics -> Literature
Tech Music before the Catherine gift since Elizabeth already knows Literature and may be going for Music herself
Gift 200 Gold to Willem for Catherine #1 clue
Binary Science and where possible, slot in a Research build to get a good multiple of Flasks on the F2 screen (any number that is divisible by 5 is good, and any number that is divisible by 5 minus 1 is better; i.e. 100 is good but 99 is better) but only worry about doing so on turns where we aren't completing a tech


Resources
Once our Deer comes online, trade it for an AI's Resource, possibly the Pig that Mansa has been showing available for trade from time to time or some other Resource


Planned Tech Trades
As soon as Mansa learns Paper, get it from him in trade

Obviously, if we can get one of Willem's techs in trade, we take such a tech in trade, but I'm expecting that we're going to have to try to steal both techs

Gift Theology to Elizabeth after stealing it


Diplo Policies (unchanged)
If an AI asks us to Stop Trading with their Worst Enemy, tell that AI "no"

Refuse requests to switch Civics/Religions

If an AI Demands/Requests a tech which is NOT Monarchy and NOT Alphabet, give the AI that tech. If an AI Demands/Requests Monarchy or Alphabet, then tell that AI "no"

If an AI Demands a Resource or Gold, give the AI that Resource

If an AI Demands/Requests Gold:
less than 100 Gold = give it
more than 100 Gold = don't give it

If a tech trade comes available, stop play to discuss the opportunity

If Mansa is researching a tech that we already know, sell/gift it to him


Civics
Switch into Hereditary Rule when needed, but as late as possible


Cities
X-opolis
Priority order of squares to work: Deer, Crab, Wheat, Fur*, Cottages, Mines
* Except when preparing a 2-pop-whipping action of a 50-Hammer build item
T89 Dump Hammers into Odeon
T90 Earn 7 Hammers in a Monastery
T91 2-pop-whip the Monstery
T92 Finish off the Odeon
T93 Finish off the Barracks
T94 Dump Hammers somewhere, probably into a Warrior
T95 Cat, but only make 4 Hammers*
T96 2-pop-whip the Cat
T97 Cat with overflow Hammers

* Note that 2-pop-whipping a 50-Hammer build item requires some important micro, as we can only make 4 final Hammers, which means passing the Fur to to Athens for such a turn

Workers here will:
Road the Deer
Build Cottages


Gems
T89 Cat
T90 2-pop-whip Cat when we're about to grow to Size 7
T91 Scout
T92 onward regrow and 1-pop-whip the Odeon when needed, otherwise keep growing, whip one more Cat and overflow into a Scout, resume building the Barracks when we're about to lose Hammers in it

Workers here will:
Finish off the G Farm
Convert the G Riv Farm that is shared with X-opolis into a Cottage


Surfin' Turf:
T89 Cat
T90 2-pop-whip Cat when we're about to grow to Size 5
T91 Scout
T92 onward regrow and whip Cats into Scouts, an Odeon, and then into Warriors

Workers here will:
Build a Fort NW + N of the City
Build Farms


City 4
T89 Spy (just whipped)
T90 partial Spy
T91 partial Warrior for later whipping
T92 whip Spy
T93 Capture Hammers in another Spy
T94 whip Spy
T95 Capture Hammers in a Settler
T96 partial Scout for later whipping
At Size 2, 2-pop-whip the Settler, then probably immediately 1-pop-whip the Scout, complete 2 Scouts, then complete the Settler, then complete another Scout with overflow, then whip the Warrior and complete the Warrior and another Warrior/Scout

Worker here will:
Mine the GH Riv square
Perform partial Worker actions on the way to building a G Riv Cottage for Willem, then build a Road toward Willem's Cities


Athens
T89 - T90 Lighthouse
T91 1-pop-whip the Lighthouse
T92 Library
When we're about to grow to Size 2, 1-pop-whip the Library
When we've grown to Size 4, 2-pop-whip the Worker

Priority order of squares to work: Crab, Cottage, Fur when X-opolis isn't working it, Coast


Piscatorium
T89 - T93 Granary
T94 Reach Size 2 and work Fish + PH Mine until the Granary has been completed
T98 Granary completed -> Lighthouse; Work 2 Fish


Hippos (Horse City)
T89 onward Work the Horse Resource and build a Granary
At Size 2, work the G Riv until the Deer has been Camped

Workers here will:
1. Improve the Horse
2. Double Chop into the Granary
3. Camp the Deer and probably 1 Worker will run off to start Forting at Surfin' Turf


New Amsterdam
Build a Scout and then Wealth until we gift the City


Units
Warrior 2 can explore toward Willem's Cities to see if we can reveal Iron or a lack of Iron

Galley 1 will shuttle Worker 1 from Piscatorium area to the Sheep area

Scout can move to 1N of the P Sheep once we settle northern Fish City


Other Comments
If we are able to steal Metal Casting, we can slot Forges into build queues for at least X-opolis and Surfin' Turf, as well as later for Piscatorium. Other Cities can be looked at on a case-by-case basis


In-game Signs
I'm going to remove the out-dated signs and put in some important signs, such as where we want to place our Forts, etc


Planned Playing time, unless there are concerns with the PPP
Roughly 19 hours from the timestamp of this message; if I need to wait longer, I will have to wait for an additional day and a half before I will have another time window

Okay, the Gold gift has been made.

I'll send out a Private Message to BSPollux and Deckhand shortly.

What is interesting is that Willem is advancing toward us with a Chariot. One lone Chariot does not equal a stack of war, but often equals fog-busting for an AI City. It will be interesting to see where it stops moving and if it does, then we'll know exactly where he will found his next City.

Gift of 166 G for Elizabeth #3


Willem's Chariot


REAL SAVED GAME link (will soon not be the latest saved game after I play forward)


I actually don't have a lot of time right now, so my write-up is not going to be as entertaining as before. I think that what's more important is that we get the game moving forward now, anyway.

So, where exactly are we thinking of building The Great Library, anyway? We could actually plan to plop it down in X-opolis using whip overflow to complete it. When I hit Enter a bunch of times in the test game just now to see if we can actually squeeze out a Settler out of the whips from City 4 (we can do so and should do so), I noticed that it didn't take that long to build The Great Library in X-opolis (20 turns without any whipping) relative to the time that it would take to get it built in Amsterdam.

It seems like as good of a solution as any... sure, it would be nice to Chop it in Amsterdam, but we not only need to get a City for our Fort Canal, but also ship units over by Galley, Bombard the City, capture the City, then wait for it to come out of City Unrest... it could take quite considerably longer and the Wonder might be gone by then, perhaps to an AI that isn't a nearby AI.

I think that it would be unwise to wait that long... while building it in X-opolis using Bureaucracy and Organized Religion is the only current alternative available to us.

So, I'll plan for doing that instead of making Confucian Missionaries there.

Gems City is probably going to have to help out with creating Warriors for X-opolis.

Dhoomstriker said:

So, where exactly are we thinking of building The Great Library, anyway? We could actually plan to plop it down in X-opolis using whip overflow to complete it. When I hit Enter a bunch of times in the test game just now to see if we can actually squeeze out a Settler out of the whips from City 4 (we can do so and should do so), I noticed that it didn't take that long to build The Great Library in X-opolis (20 turns without any whipping) relative to the time that it would take to get it built in Amsterdam.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant to get back to you sooner. Busy day...

What is our purpose in building The Great Library? Is it to generate Great Scientists, generate more science by using the two free scientists or is it to deny its use to our rivals, or something else?

Asking because building it in X-opolis means the gene pool gets diluted, so it is not necessarily good for producing GS's. It would be good to generate more beakers (flasks). If we are after GS generation, then perhaps we should let it be built elsewhere and try to capture it? Lots of hammers we could use for other things?

leif erikson said:

What is our purpose in building The Great Library? Is it to generate Great Scientists, generate more science by using the two free scientists or is it to deny its use to our rivals, or something else?

Click to expand...

It could be any of those things.

By itself, it produces 6 Flasks per turn or 9 Flasks per turn with an Academy and X-opolis has an Academy. That's not a whole lot of Flasks, but 9 Flasks when combined with our free Flask per turn means 2 bonus Flasks per turn, for a net of 11 Flasks per turn.

It also produces 2 + 3 + 3 = 8 base GPP per turn, which for us, as Philosophical, means at least 16 GPP per turn, and more during a Golden Age or Pacifism, if we ever get Philosophy.

As you say, the gene pool would be diluted by putting it in X-opolis, but the gene pool would get diluted if, say, we built The National Epic in the same City as wherever we were to put The Great Library elsewhere.

Great Merchants and Great Scientists are both good, so I'm not too concerned about getting "the wrong" one... either type would be good.

It's more a matter of... do we want to start investing overflow Hammers into building it.

What's the cost?

350 final Hammers / 1.75 (Bureaucracy + Org Rel) = 200 base Hammers
200 * 1.5 = 300 final Hammers in Units

So, it's the cost of 6 Catapults.

Now, the point to remember is that we were going to be whipping Catapults (possibly 2 Galleys first) into The Great Library, so we'd still be getting Catapults; it's just that the whipping overflow would go elsewhere, but the previous plan had that overflow going into Missionaries and Warriors anyway.

So, a better question might be:
Is it better to get:
i. 6 Missionaries and 4 Warriors
OR
EDIT: I forgot about our Library... 6 * 1.75 = 10.5, which still gives us 2 bonus Flasks, for 12.5 Flasks per turn
ii. 11 Flasks 12.5 Flasks + 16 GPP (sometimes more GPP) per turn


We could gift Literature to Elizabeth after we learn Music (so that she doesn't beat us to Music), but she might not be the first AI to build The Great Library.

Meanwhile, we wouldn't benefit from the Wonder earlier in the game, and possibly not at all.


We could start to build it an at least earn Failure Gold later if we change our minds.

Playing...

Turnset Report

T89, 650 BC

X King: Build me an army that the world shall fear!

Military Commander: It shall be done. But, sire, we have no Barracks, so our troops will be weak.

X King: Then let us run practice drills against our neighbour, Willem, so that our troops can become battle hardened in the fields.

Military Commander: Very cunning, sire! Let us hope that Willem stay amenable to our plan...

Domestic Advisor: There is nothing really left to be done, so let us proceed to the next turn.

Foreign Advisor: It should be noted that Willem and Mansa already have an Open Borders agreement with each other.

For the record, these Open Borders agremeents exist:
Us with everyone but Mansa
Mansa with Elizabeth, Isabella, and Willem
Willem with Us, Mansa, Elizabeth, and Shaka
Isabella with Us, Mansa, and Shaka
Elizabeth with Us, Mansa, and Willem
Shaka with Us, Willem, and Isabella


T90, 625 BC

Head of Intelligence: Mansa jumped from 8 to 6 turns to Paper, while Willem went from 5 to 4 turns to Metal Casting

Espionage Report
York (Elizabeth) Size 6 (no change): 84 Hammers in a build item (was 73 H)
Ulundi (Shaka) Size 6 (no change): 18 Hammers in a build item (was just completed)
Bulawayo (Shaka) Size 4 (was 3): 2 Hammers in a build item (was just completed)
Amsterdam (Willem) Size 11 (no change): Just completed a build item (was just completed)

Foreign Advisor: Isabella has founded her 5th City

Also, someone received a Great Scientist. With any luck, it is Philosophical Elizabeth with her Stonehenge GPP combined with a Library's Scientists

Warrior 3: Willem's Chariot has not moved

Military Commander: We know where Willem plans to settle his next City

X King: Then, we can delay the gift of the northern Fish City until we see said City. Also, we can afford to send Warrior 3 to reveal Willem's nearby City and spot his incoming Settler, to give us better Espionage info and to see what's coming

Warrior 3: Yes, sire, I can scout toward the west while Willem takes over spawn-busting duty!

Foreign Advisor: No change in the TECH scene, although these changes in Gold were observed:
Isabella 30 -> 10
Willem 10 -> 30
Mansa 40 -> 0

Mansa's 2 GPT and Isabella's 1 GPT also disappeared. We could wait for a bit to see if she shows us anything interesting otherwise we can just gift her a Fish (no other AI wants a Fish Resource from us, with Elizabeth already getting one of our Fish)

Work Boat Captain: We have revealed a path to Mansa!



X King: For now, we can continue proceeding eastward

Head of Intelligence:
Walata (Mansa) Size 1: Just completed a build item

Military Commander: Walata has been settled on top of a Copper Resources and the City contains 1 Skirmisher (no Promos) and 2 Spearmen (one with 0 Promos and one with Combat II)

X King: We just saw the new clue, and it does seem that our current strategy might fit best with building 2 Galleys out of X-opolis... which would give us two four-movement point Galleys, with the Great General one to explore islands, while the other one that received 10 XP would be used to shuttle units to Amsterdam and would eventually get XP and a full Great General attached to him (the second Great General could go on a Chariot, giving that boat 20 XP and still no attached Great General)


Turn 91, 600 BC

Foreign Advisor: Mansa has founded his 6th City, Niani. Unfortunately, no one discovered Philosophy

Warrior 3: Willem's Chariot continues to remain in place, but no sign of a Settler just yet

Work Boat Captain: In order to proceed, we must Open Borders with Mansa

Foreign Advisor: Shaka once again treats Mansa as his Worst Enemy

X King: We must continue our exploration, and the Trade Routes will be good to have. Proceed with Opening Borders

Foreign Advisor: We now make a hefty amount of Foreign Trade Route income from Mansa

Science Advisor: Elizabeth has beaten us to Literature! At this rate, she may even beat us to Music! We may have no choice but to beeline that tech as soon as possible, delaying our next clue until after learning Music. We might even be unable to beat her!

X King: Well, I suppose that we can let her build The Great Library for us, without worrying about having to gift her Literature and we can better focus our Hammers on units

Foreign Advisor: Mansa shows 2 GPT again, although it is going to be stronger to take his Pig with our Deer (if he will take Deer) next turn

Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report

York (Elizabeth) Size 6 (no change): Just completed a build item (was 84 H)
Ulundi (Shaka) Size 3 (likely 3-pop-whipped from Size 6): Just completed a build item (was 18 H)
Bulawayo (Shaka) Size 3 (likely 1-pop-whipped from Size 4): Just completed a build item (was 2 H)
Amsterdam (Willem) Size 11 (no change): 19 Hammers in a build item (was just completed)
Walata (Mansa) Size 2 (was Size 1): 7 Hammers in a build item (was just completed)


T92, 575 BC

Foreign Advisor: Just as we get our Deer connected, which either Mansa or Isabella will take, Mansa hides his Pig. He has a trade with Isabella, with Mansa's Pig being traded for Isabella's Copper, which is weird, since Mansa has settled a Coastal City on Copper, so that trade is almost certainly an old trade... perhaps Barbs are at work, or the Cultural Borders from a neighbour stealing Mansa's Pig? Or, Mansa knows an AI that we haven't met and is trading his other Pig to that AI

Science Advisor: We need more Gold... I suggest that we make the following trades:
70 Gold from Elizabeth for Alphabet
50 Gold from Willem for Aesthetics

Foreign Advisor: Willem is Mansa's Worst Enemy, though, so he won't be totally happy toward us for making such a trade. For that matter, Mansa is also Willem's Worst Enemy.

X King: Should we consider begging 40 Gold from Mansa while he's still Pleased toward us?

Domestic Advisor: I think that we should whip our 4th Spy into a Settler instead of our 3rd Spy, so I'll queue the build items in that order

X King: It seems like a good time to stop and seek advice from more of the X-Men on our tech trades, as per our current Diplo Policy.

1. Now that Mansa's Pig Resource has disappeared, should we make this trade for our Deer?
2 Gold per Turn from Mansa <-> Deer

2. Do we want to beg 40 Gold from Mansa?

3. Do we want to do as the Science Advisor has suggested and make these trades?
70 Gold from Elizabeth <-> Alphabet (Mansa and Willem can already trade with her, while she will refuse to trade with Shaka and Isabella will refuse to trade with her)
50 Gold from Willem <-> Aesthetics

4. Should we gift a Fish Resource to Isabella for Diplo credit?

5. Should we try to build The Great Library in X-opolis or should we hope that Elizabeth builds it for us and focus on building more units?

Link to the REAL saved game

I could potentially continue play approximately 24 hours from the timestamp of this message.

Your new clue has just been delivered.

Lacking further feedback, I suggest that we go with:
1. Get Mansa's GPT for our Deer since we missed out on his Pig by 1 turn and we don't know when another Resource might become available for trade
2. Beg 40 Gold from Mansa, since we are actively gifting Gems to Willem, to take advantage of the begging opportunity before Mansa potentially stops being Pleased toward us as we continue to trade with his Worst Enemy and refuse to stop doing so
3. Trade:
70 Gold from Elizabeth <-> Alphabet
since that's the highest amount of Gold that we've seen her being willing to offer
Wait on the Willem trade to avoid stockpiling too much Gold at a time
4. Let's wait for up to 5 turns for Isabella to offer us something for our Fish and then simply gift the Fish to Isabella, since there is such a large surplus of Fish on the map that she might get one from someone else (for Iron, would be just our luck) or might net her own... so, we might as well get Diplo credit out of our excess Fish Resource
5. Forget about building The Great Library and try to keep Elizabeth having a relative monopoly on Literature so that she hopefully builds it for us and generates some Philosophical Great Scientists before we capture it from her

Medium Term Plan
What's not totally clear is the ideal time to launch our Golden Age, so let me propose an approach.

We have some competing variables:
1. We want to whip some Military Units, so our Cities won't be extremely large
2. The Golden Age could save us a turn of Anarchy in switching into Monarchy. However, if we switch into Hereditary Rule at the start of our Golden Age, it'll almost be "too late" in the sense that we would immediately hire Specialists
3. We want to buy Catherine #1 soon, which delays our Research post-Music, while its probably going to be worth it to self-tech Philosophy after Music so that when we launch our Golden Age, our Specialists will produce even more GPP per turn
4. The sooner that we start the war with Willem, the more Experience Points we can get out of our Military Units. If we are going to switch into Hereditary Rule outside of a Golden Age, which seems to be prudent, it would be nice to do so just after we declare war, rather than before we declare war, so as to get in an extra turn of fighting during the period of Anarchy

So, I'm thinking that we can go for something like:
Turn 100 is the target date for war + Hereditary Rule


Picking that date should give us time to get a Settler out of City 4 for our Sheep + Iron City.

Also, we can have a Cat, Archer, and Warrior adjacent to Willem's Chariot such that if he hasn't settled his City yet, we can kill his Chariot, but if he has settled his City, we will be ready to fend off an invading Chariot. A Cat gets pretty solid odds against a Chariot but can't kill a Chariot, so we need a kill unit on hand and it's nice to have a backup unit on hand, too.

I don't want to delay the tech theft for too long, either, as we want to get Theology into Elizabeth's hands soon enough for her to start on The Apostolic Palace. The turn that we plan to declare war is our target date for stealing techs.


For a few turns after Hereditary Rule, we'd focus on aggressive City growth, then roughly 8 to 10 turns later launch our Golden Age.

When we launch our Golden Age, we can slip into Caste System + Pacifism, giving us 12 GPP per Specialist hired.

It may seem "wrong" to slip into Hereditary Rule outside of a Golden Age. But, consider that X-opolis will be limited to roughly Size 8 without a Happiness boost. With that Happiness boost, we can grow the City roughly 2 City Sizes for every 3 turns. Growing the City 6 Sizes larger over the course of roughly 9 turns gives us another 6 Specialists hired, meaning:
6 Specialists * 7 turns * 12 GPP + 6 Specialists * 1 turn * 9 GPP (when we switch out of Pacifism on the last turn of the Golden Age) = 6 * 84 + 54 = 504 + 54 = 558 GPP

We'll therefore probably end up generating:
Great Person #3 out of X-opolis, Great Person #4 out of Surfin' Turf, Great Person #5 out of X-opolis

Meanwhile, we can accumulate a bunch of GPP in Gems City and in Athens (Fur Island) for future Great People.


After that, we'll have competing build items: Forges (if Metal Casting gets successfully stolen), Universities, and Military Units, with us probably going:
Emergency Military Units if needed -> Forges in some, but not all Cities, if we successfully stole Metal Casting -> Universities so that X-opolis can get started on building Oxford University -> spam Military Units and the odd Settler, as well as The Heroic Epic in Surfin' Turf and Moai Statues in Piscatorium


If Willem hasn't settled a City to the north-west of Surfin' Turf for us to capture by that time, we can settle our own City, say, NE + NE + N of Surfin' Turf (1N of the Lake) and ship our veteran troops by Galley toward Willem's Cities, then onward to Elizabeth's Cities.

Trying to catch up again, so please pardon stupid questions.

Are we planning to settle Iron City before war?

Essentially agree with this:

Dhoomstriker said:

Lacking further feedback, I suggest that we go with:
1. Get Mansa's GPT for our Deer since we missed out on his Pig by 1 turn and we don't know when another Resource might become available for trade
2. Beg 40 Gold from Mansa, since we are actively gifting Gems to Willem, to take advantage of the begging opportunity before Mansa potentially stops being Pleased toward us as we continue to trade with his Worst Enemy and refuse to stop doing so
3. Trade:
70 Gold from Elizabeth <-> Alphabet
since that's the highest amount of Gold that we've seen her being willing to offer
Wait on the Willem trade to avoid stockpiling too much Gold at a time
4. Let's wait for up to 5 turns for Isabella to offer us something for our Fish and then simply gift the Fish to Isabella, since there is such a large surplus of Fish on the map that she might get one from someone else (for Iron, would be just our luck) or might net her own... so, we might as well get Diplo credit out of our excess Fish Resource
5. Forget about building The Great Library and try to keep Elizabeth having a relative monopoly on Literature so that she hopefully builds it for us and generates some Philosophical Great Scientists before we capture it from her

Click to expand...

Think I like the third task for Elizabeth.

Have we any idea where Izzie is?

Think I am pretty much on board with Medium Term Plan. Have no problem with HR before Golden Age. Do you plan to change back to Slavery as GA is about to end?

leif erikson said:

Are we planning to settle Iron City before war?

Click to expand...

Yes, that is exactly the point of some crazy micro in City 4 just to get a Settler created. Our Galley will shuttle the Settler to the location 1N of the P Sheep.

Rather than Pre-Roading, though, the Worker is going to Pre-Chop one of the Forests into the Granary there. From there, I'd see the Worker Pasturing the Sheep, Chopping the second Forest, partial Roading its way back to the Sheep, Roading the Sheep, Mining the Iron, then deciding when to Road the Iron based on whether we feel that we've created enough Warrior Military Police units.

Once we get a few Drill-Promoted Cats, we'll be in a strong position to fend off any enemy Chariots that come our way during the time when we don't have our Iron Resource connected.

leif erikson said:

Think I like the third task for Elizabeth.

Click to expand...

One interesting piece of info that this task gives us is that at least one AI out there has access to building War Elephants, as there must be Ivory out there, and I suspect that it will be defended by an AI, rather than placed on a lone island adjacent to a Gold Resource, a Silver Resource, etc.

But, it could be that each Resource is spread out such that we'd have to capture a City from each AI in order to secure all of the Resources. It fits in with a Domination Victory, but we're not yet sure of the map layout to know if that's the best approach... history shows that teams who go for Domination when all Victory Conditions are enabled tend not to do as well as other teams who pick different Victory Conditions, especially when Vassals are disabled.

Until we get some AIs' World Maps (early Paper; thanks Mansa... just don't start on The University of Sankore before we can get it in trade from you), it's going to be tough to judge how feasible this task will be to accomplish.

leif erikson said:

Have we any idea where Izzie is?

Click to expand...

I haven't got the foggiest of ideas. She met us by Work Boat before Mansa met us, and from the same area of our empire, which seems to imply that she must have an empire that is reachable by the chain of islands... but, there could be multiple paths to that chain of islands and we just followed a path that led to Mansa.

leif erikson said:

Have no problem with HR before Golden Age. Do you plan to change back to Slavery as GA is about to end?

Click to expand...

Oh, for sure, but I don't see myself playing that far. I just want to get things set up for the next player to go more smoothly, then I'd like to hand off again.

But, since you asked, I'd see us going into Caste System and Pacifism on the first turn of the Golden Age and back into Slavery and Organized Religion on the last turn of the Golden Age.

Playing...

T92, 575 BC Continued

Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report

York (Elizabeth) Size 6 (no change): 21 Hammers in a build item (was just completed; from now on, I will say "was 0 H")
Ulundi (Shaka) Size 3 (no change): Just completed a build item aka "0 H" will be stated from now on (was 0 H)
Bulawayo (Shaka) Size 3 (no change): 31 H (was 0 H)
Amsterdam (Willem) Size 11 (no change): 0 H (was 19 H)
Utretcht (Willem) Size 7: 8 H
Walata (Mansa) Size 2 (no change): 10 H (was 7 H)

Foreign Advisor: We have made the following exchanges:
2 GPT from Mansa <-> Deer
Beg 40 Gold from Mansa
70 Gold from Elizabeth <-> Alphabet

Scout: I can move 1W P For and still be able to spawn-bust the important squares, since we don't need to spawn-bust Ocean squares. In this way, I can increase the chances of a Forest growing on the square that I was standing on from 0% to something like 0.000001%, haha. Also, I'll be closer to being able to be donated to Willem's cause later on



T93, 550 BC

Science Advisor: We have learned Literature. Let the race to Music (against Elizabeth) begin!

Head of Intelligence: Mansa is 1 turn closer to Paper, being 3 turns away from learning it. Willem is 1 turn closer to Metal Casting, being 1 turn away from learning it.

Foreign Advisor: Mansa has founded his 7th City, Awdaghost

Domestic Advisor: We want to focus on growth, so the new citizen in Gems City works the recently-built G Farm instead of a GH Mine

Foreign Advisor: Isabella and Elizabeth both show 2 GPT, so we make the following exchanges:
2 GPT from Isabella <-> Fish
Cancel Gems to Elizabeth
2 GPT from Elizabeth <-> Gems

Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka has connected a second Fish Resource, as he now shows a Fish Resource under the "Import -> Won't Trade" column

Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka's State Religion of Christianity is having its negative effects on relations, such that we saw these changes in Attitude:
Willem toward Shaka: Went from +1 Pleased to 0 Cautious
Mansa toward Shaka: Went from -1 Cautious to -2 Cautious

Foreign Advisor: Only minor changes appeared on the F4 TECHS screen, related to increases or decreases in Gold

Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report

York (Elizabeth) Size 4 (2-pop-whipped): 0 H (was 21 H)
Ulundi (Shaka) Size 4 (just grew): 0 H (was 0 H)
Bulawayo (Shaka) Size 4 (just grew): 0 H (was 31 H)
Amsterdam (Willem) Size 12 (just grew): 56 H (was 0 H)
Utretcht (Willem) Size 7 (no change): 16 H (was 8 H)
Walata (Mansa) Size 2 (no change): 13 H (was 10 H)

Domestic Advisor: With a bit of micro, we can obtain just over 40 Hammers going into our Settler, meaning that it will be 2-pop-whippable: 100 - 40 = 60; 60 or less Hammers only require 2 population points for whipping


T94, 525 BC

Woodsman: A Forest just grew near City 4!

Domestic Advisor: Microing in the opposite direction (focusing on Food instead of Hammers), we can quickly grow City 4 so that it can be 2-pop-whipped next turn, while also setting up a Chariot to be 1-pop-whippable on a future turn:


Foreign Advisor: Willem will now trade Theology! It seems that Isabella has been self-teching Theology. So, Isabella might start on The Apostolic Palace. Once Isabella becomes Friendly toward Mansa, she will likely trade Theology to Mansa in exchange for some of Mansa's technology. Thus, I propose that we trade:
Theology + 50 Gold from Willem <-> Aesthetics + Construction

X King: Won't that give Willem access to Catapults?

Military Advisor: Our Catapults can beat his Catapults! Plus, he'd then be able to build Odeons for us

X King: What about trading Iron Working to Willem?

Foreign Advisor: That's a swing of 210 Gold, so that's our Catherine #1 clue gone right there. Plus, then we might jeopardize our Music race even further. So, I suggest that we do not make the following trade:
Theology from Willem <-> Aesthetics + Iron Working + 160 Gold

X King: We can ponder the decision for a few minutes, but otherwise we should probably make the trade using Construction, as we already posted in our PPP that we would take Willem's techs via trade instead of via Espionage, where possible

Domestic Advisor: X-ops (X-opolis for short) should switch the 7th citizen from a Mine to a Cottage, which also allows us to grow to Size 8 within the span of 1 turn instead of within 2 turns.

Gems City will grow into Unhappiness at Size 7 in 2 turns' time, so let's start on a Catapult this turn, whip it next turn just before growing to the next City Size (which is usually the ideal time to whip a build item), then overflow some Hammers into another Scout

Foreign Advisor: Willem has just learned Metal Casting. Mansa is 1 turn closer to Paper, with him learning it in 2 turns' time. After we receive Theology in trade, we might as well trade it to Mansa for Paper, since he'll get that tech from Isabella whenever she becomes Friendly toward him, which is just a matter of time. After that, we can sell/gift Theology to Elizabeth, so that Isabella doesn't hate us quite as much, due to Theology having slightly less value due to Mansa knowing it before we sell/gift it to Elizabeth

Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report

York (Elizabeth) Size 4 (no change): 0 H (was 0 H)
Ulundi (Shaka) Size 5 (just grew): 0 H (was 0 H)
Bulawayo (Shaka) Size 4 (no change): 18 H (was 0 H)
Amsterdam (Willem) Size 12 (no change): 0 H (was 56 H)
Utretcht (Willem) Size 8 (just grew): 0 H (was 16 H)
The Hague (Willem) Size 4: 29 H
Walata (Mansa) Size 2 (no change): 16 H (was 13 H)

Foreign Advisor: Mansa shows yet another GPT available for trade (we're getting 2 GPT from him, so this one is his third), so his population points continue to climb

Ambassador Milquetoast: Meanwhile, many relationships involving Shaka have changed due to Shaka having Christianity as his State Religion, including:
Elizabeth went from 0 Annoyed to -1 Annoyed toward Shaka
Shaka went from 0 Annoyed to -1 Annoyed toward us
Shaka went from +3 Cautious to +2 Annoyed toward Elizabeth
Shaka went from +1 Cautious to 0 Cautious toward Isabella
Shaka went from -1 Cautious to -2 Cautious toward Willem
Shaka went from +1 Annoyed to 0 Annoyed toward Mansa

Foreign Advisor: Worst Enemy statuses remain unchanged:
Elizabeth hates Shaka
Isabella hates Elizabeth
Shaka hates Mansa
Willem hates Mansa
Mansa hates Willem



X King: Make the trade using Construction

Foreign Advisor: Yes, sire!

Domestic Advisor: Shall we prepare to build The Apostolic Palace? We do get a competitive advantage, such that we do not have Marble, Stone, or Copper, so its base cost is just as expensive as other Wonders which are otherwise cheaper when those Resources are available, due to it being one of those Wonders that does not get a Resource-based production advantage

X King: Haha, no. Let one of the AIs build it for us and then we can conquer it later

Foreign Advisor: Mansa has gone from +4 Pleased to +2 Cautious toward us for having traded with his Worst Enemy, Willem

T95, 500 BC

Warrior 2: I have revealed all of Willem's territory. He lacks Iron

Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka seems to be keeping a close eye on Willem's capital, with an Impi and an Archer being adjacent to it



Foreign Advisor: It seems that Willem has started to tech Iron Working and will learn it in 2 turns' time. We might as well earn 40 Gold out of him and hope that he researches something useful (such as Machinery or Divine Right) instead of something painful (such as Feudalism) as his next tech

X King: It seems like a reasonable risk to take, as we want Willem's research working for us. If he goes for Feudalism next, he would have obtained it regardless of whether we had sped him up by 2 turns or not

Foreign Advisor: Mansa has hidden his 1 GPT, no new techs were learned by the AIs, and no changes occurred in terms of Diplo Attitudes. Meanwhile, Isabella has adopted her Favourite Civic, Theocracy. We might, therefore, have to turn down a request to switch into that Civic at any time

Domestic Advisor: X-ops micro: Give the Fur to Athens and work purely Deer, Crab, Wheat, and Cottages while putting 0 overflow Hammers into a Catapult for a total of 4 final Hammers, keeping it barely a 2-pop-whippable item

Gems City micro: After 2-pop-whipping a Cat, work the G Riv Cottage in favour of a G Farm, as we're about to regrow next turn anyway (with 28 / 28 Food after whipping)

City 4 micro: We've reached Size 4, so switch to building the Settler and 2-pop-whip it. Have the second citizen work a GH Riv Mine (3F + 1C -> 3H + 1C) instead of a G Riv Farm (1F + 3H + 1C -> 4H +1C) for 1 free Hammer due to being diligent

Athens micro: Don't forget to steal the Fur that X-ops isn't working!



New Amsterdam micro: Now that our Scout has been completed and we are building Wealth, working a P For = +2 Gold, while working a G Riv Cot = +2 Commerce... those two are pretty much equivalent, since the City lacks any Science or Gold multiplier Buildings, although we can choose to direct those 2 Commerce toward Flasks or Gold based on our Commerce sliders. Meanwhile, the Food is going to be thrown away, but this way we get to mature the Cottage for free

Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report

York (Elizabeth) Size 5 (just grew): 25 H (was 0 H)
Ulundi (Shaka) Size 5 (no change): 14 H (was 0 H)
Bulawayo (Shaka) Size 5 (just grew): 28 H (was 18 H)
Amsterdam (Willem) Size 12 (no change): 36 H (was 0 H)
Utretcht (Willem) Size 8 (no change): 38 H (was 0 H)
The Hague (Willem) Size 5 (just grew): 0 H (was 29 H)
Walata (Mansa) Size 2 (no change): 0 H (was 16 H)

Science Advisor: Let us wait 1 more turn to see if Willem will give us his World Map for Iron Working. As long as Mansa trades us Paper, we should have a chance to buy Willem's World Map this way. Also, Mansa is less likely to hate us by making a closer-to-fair trade next turn instead of this turn

T96, 475 BC

Foreign Advisor: Isabella has founded her 6th City, Santiago

Head of Intelligence: Mansa has learned Paper, while Willem is 1 turn away from learning Iron Working

Science Advisor: Let us buy Paper from Mansa for Theology, Aesthetics, and a bit of Gold. For now, we should hang onto Construction, so as to deter Mansa from going after the annoying Engineering technology (which unlocks AI Castles)

Foreign Advisor: Done. Willem will give us:
World Map + 20 / 40 Gold <-> Iron Working

Warrior 2: I tried exploring a bit more this turn, to see if I could bring the price of Willem's World Map down, but he still proposes the same deal, I suggest that we take it

X King: Make it so

Science Advisor: Elizabeth gets Theology from us, too!

Foreign Advisor: Some Diplo relationships have changed:
Mansa went from +2 Cautious to +3 Pleased toward us
Mansa went from +5 Pleased to +6 Pleased toward Isabella
Elizabeth went from +11 Pleased to +12 Friendly toward Willem... we'll really have to beg something from her before starting the war, as she can now be bribed by Willem against another player (such as us)

After making these important trades, we see:
Mansa went from +3 Pleased to +2 Cautious toward us
Shaka went from -1 Annoyed to -2 Annoyed toward us
Isabella went from +4 Cautious to +1 Cautious toward us

Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report

York (Elizabeth) Size 5 (no change): 0 H (was 25 H)
Ulundi (Shaka) Size 5 (no change): 23 H (was 14 H)
uMgungundlovu (Shaka) Size 3: 62 H
Nobamba (Shaka) Size 4: 0 H
Bulawayo (Shaka) Size 5 (no change): 41 H (was 28 H)
kwaDukuza (Shaka) Size 2: 4 H
Amsterdam (Willem) Size 12 (no change): 57 H (was 36 H)
Utretcht (Willem) Size 8 (no change): 54 H (was 38 H)
The Hague (Willem) Size 5 (no change): 11 H (was 0 H)
Kumbi Saleh (Mansa) Size 9: 0 H
Walata (Mansa) Size 2 (no change): 8 H (was 0 H)

Foreign Advisor: After receiving Willem's World Map, we can see that Mansa has access to Stone! Also, Shaka does not have access to Iron!



Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka has connected a second Clam Resource as Clam has appeared under "Import -> Won't Trade" and he isn't actively trading Clam to any AI, so it can't be his third Clam Resource

T97, 450 BC

Science Advisor: We are the first to Music and we received our Great Artist! Time for slow research on Philosophy while we earn the Gold to bribe Willem to reveal a secret about the mistress, errr, I mean, mysterious Catherine

Foreign Advisor: Willem has kindly gone after Machinery (12 turns to go), although Mansa has lamely gone after Construction (2 turns to go). Mansa has 0 Gold to offer, so perhaps we can wait until next turn, grab any Gold that he has earned, and take his World Map for the last bit of Construction

Ambassador Milquetoast: Also, someone received a Great Scientist, but it wasn't Shaka, nor was it Willem, as we see all of their Cities

Domestic Advisor: X-ops once again switches the new citizen from working the Mine to a Cottage. We also can build a second Cat with the overflow Hammers, essentially earning 2 full Catapults by 2-pop-whipping the first one

Surfin' Turf works the GH Mine at Size 5 in order to complete its Odeon manually at the time of being about to grow into Unhappiness

City 4 can complete a Scout with overflow Hammers and only needs 3 Food to grow, so we can work a Farm instead of the Corn in order to earn +1 Commerce. Then, we can whip the Chariot that has 1 Hammer invested in it next turn, just after having grown to Size 2, and then we can give away the City to Willem on the following turn, one turn ahead of the estimated war date



Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report

York (Elizabeth) Size 5 (no change): 23 H (was 0 H)
Ulundi (Shaka) Size 5 (no change): 32 H (was 23 H)
uMgungundlovu (Shaka) Size 3 (no change): 0 H (was 62 H)
Nobamba (Shaka) Size 4 (no change): 41 H (was 0 H)
Bulawayo (Shaka) Size 5 (no change): 54 H (was 41 H)
kwaDukuza (Shaka) Size 2 (no change): 5 H (was 4 H)
Nongoma (Shaka) Size 1: 0 H
Amsterdam (Willem) Size 12 (no change): 0 H (was 57 H)
Utretcht (Willem) Size 8 (no change): 71 H (was 54 H)
The Hague (Willem) Size 5 (no change): 52 H (was 11 H)
Kumbi Saleh (Mansa) Size 9 (no change): 14 H (was 0 H)
Walata (Mansa) Size 2 (no change): 11 H (was 8 H)

Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka has connected his third Sheep Resource, with a previously-connected Sheep already being traded to Willem for Gems

Foreign Advisor: Isabella has a second Copper available (which she can't trade to anyone that we know, since she won't trade it to us when being Cautious toward us, she only is Pleased toward Mansa, and Mansa already has Copper)

T98, 425 BC

Ambassador Milquetoast: Mansa trades Pig to Shaka for Shaka's Clam. There was no opportunity for us to grab Mansa's Pig

Foreign Advisor: Mansa has switched Civics to Organized Religion

Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka is offering 2 GPT, but we have nothing to sell to him

Foreign Advisor: Isabella has self-teched Iron Working

Foreign Advisor: We have become Shaka's Worst Enemy

Mansa has gone from +2 Cautious to +3 Pleased toward us

Science Advisor: Mansa would be willing to make these trades:
World Map from Mansa <-> 55 Gold
World Map from Mansa <-> Construction + 5 Gold

X King: We can take the second trade without angering Willem and without paying a whole lot

Science Advisor: Also, it makes sense to hold on to our World Map for now... letting an AI have it can cause an AI like Shaka to attack prematurely, due to getting to see our forces. At a minimum, we can wait until several AIs have a stockpile of Gold and then can sell the World Map to every AI on the same turn as each other

Foreign Advisor: We have uncovered Isabella! She is located to the north-west of Mansa. We now have Foreign Trade Routes with Isabella!

X King: It appears that Mansa going after Paper for us has had an unexpected reward! And, once again, we failed to capitalize on the Open Borders opportunity immediately. The next time that we reveal a path to an AI, we should probably just Open Borders immediately



Domestic Advisor: Once again, X-ops must switch the Mine to a Cottage... let's try turning on the Emphasize Food button, to see if doing so will help with future citizen assignment

Piscatorium has completed its Granary, so we start to build a Lighthouse and we work the 2 Fish, which will fill up our Granary with 12 Food, which would mean starting off at Size 3 with 12 Food from the Granary + 9 overflow Food = 21 / 26 Food... if we work a PH Mine at Size 3, we will make +6 Food, which lets us grow to Size 4 within 1 more turn! Somewhere in there, we should possibly whip a third Work Boat as well as a Lighthouse, then get to work on a Warrior Military Police unit

We have founded Sleepy Sheep City for Sheep + Iron

Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report... let's simplify things considerably, so that we still capture the most useful info (which AIs might be chasing after Wonders)

These Cities have more than 50 Hammers in build items:
Madrid (Isabella): 54 H
Bulwayo (Shaka): 67 H
The Hague (Willem): 64 H
Timbuktu (Mansa): 161 H... Note that this City has a Sabotage Production value of 1023

See? Doing so wasn't that bad, but we could even live with just looking for Sabotage Production values that are greater than 1000 and then reporting both the Sabotage Production plus Support City Revolt values...
The formula is: {Sabotage Production} / {Support City Revolt} * 650 / 6

Mr. Pine, the Sign Guy: Whieh. I added a sign while the game was paused, but fortunately, unpausing the game added the sign successfully. Saving and then loading a saved game made after that point worked without the game crashing. The same won't necessarily be true if a sign is added when the game is paused and then the game gets saved before unpausing the game. Be warned

Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka is the only AI who will take our Corn. Since we're receiving a Corn from Elizabeth, we sell ours to Shaka for 2 GPT (he won't trade Sheep to us, his Worst Enemy)

T99, 400 BC

Foreign Advisor: Mansa, the beauty, has started research on Philosophy (6 turns to go), while Willem is still researching Machinery (8 turns to go)

Science Advisor: I suppose that we can switch to researching Compass

Ambassador Milquetoast: Shaka has founded his 7th City, Ondini, sharing his Plains Oasis to the west of Hippos (Horse City) and which also grabs the P Cow Resource in its big fat cross

Financial Advisor: Finally, we have enough Gold to bribe Willem to reveal the Catherine #1 clue! Hmmm, I suppose that we're going to have to save the game, pay Willem, then perform the war actions

Financial Advisor: We have made the 200-Gold gift for Catherine #1. We can upload the saved games shortly. See the message below for the screenshots

Military Commander: May I finally get this war underway?

X King: As soon as we've uploaded those saved games, we'll get to work on the process of setting up that war! We have several steps to follow, but it will happen momentarily! Be on guard and prepared!

Financial Advisor: Fortunately, Willem "hid" all 200 Gold that we gave to him, which will mean that we don't have to feel guilty about not waiting 1 turn to try and sell him a tech to get the Gold back... he might not give it back! Plus, this way, he'll be able to research full-steam ahead on Machinery... which is a tech that isn't going to help him all that much without Copper or Iron

Foreign Advisor: We have a slight problem. Elizabeth has no Gold to offer us, no GPT to offer us, and she won't share her World Map with a player to whom she is only Pleased

X King: What about Resources?

Foreign Advisor: She doesn't have any that we aren't already trading for

X King: And...?

Foreign Advisor: Ohhh, good idea! We can first try to cancel a Resource trade and then beg that she give us that Resource! Smooth thinking, X King!

Foreign Advisor: Oh, my... she refused!

X King: What did you do?

Foreign Advisor: Well, we cancelled this trade:
Corn from Elizabeth <-> Wheat

Then, we begged Corn from her, and she replied, saying: "Sorry, but you press us too hard."

X King: Well, we tried our best, didn't we?

Foreign Advisor: We don't really need to keep importing her Fish for our Cow, though, so we can cancel that deal, keep our Wheat, then give her our Cow for her Corn

X King: Not quite what we wanted, but I'll take it. Let's hope that she doesn't ruin the deal by getting bribed into war against us soon!

Domestic Advisor: Nice work! Now we have some extra Health into which to grow!

Military Commander: Unexpectedly, Willem's Chariot has run away, out of reach of our Catapult and Archer

BSPollux said:

Dhoomstriker said:

So, just to be clear, we can perform other trades or espionage with Willem on a turn where we buy a hint from him, correct? Here are some examples:
...
2. Give him a City
3. Receive a tech from Willem via a Steal Tech Espionage Mission (not a tech trade)

Click to expand...

yep, all ok

Click to expand...

Scout: I have joined Willem's team

Head of Intelligence: I regret to inform you, sire, that one of our Spies was captured by Willem's forces. Willem will not forget that event (permanent -1 Diplo Attitude toward us). But, our second Spy was successful and we are now the proud owners of Metal Casting!


X King: Is there anything else that we could do with our 3rd Spy?

Head of Intelligence: I'd rather not Poison the Wells or Forment Unhappiness in a City that we're about to recapture. Switching Willem out of Hereditary Rule would make his citizens Unhappy, and AIs will whip away Unhappy citizens, which would just encourage him to whip out an army. We could switch him into Confucianism, but we only have an 82% chance of success, and I'd rather not risk taking another -1 Diplo Attitude hit, as we must still be at a total of +1 when we want to gift him our Workers. But, what we can and should do is Perform Counter-espionage, which adds 200% to the cost of Dutch Espionage Missions against us for 10 turns and also puts our Counter-Spy network on high alert, all with a 100% chance of success for the heavily discounted price from 100 EPs down to 13 EPs. It's a bargain basement deal

X King: Do it!

Foreign Advisor: Well, Elizabeth hates us by -1 for declaring war on her friend, but she is still +6 Pleased toward us, and she can only be bribed against a player toward whom she is Cautious, so we're safe from being declared on by her

Military Commander: Catapults... charge!

Chariot 1: City 4 is ours again!

Military Commander: It seems that Willem's wandering Scout may or may not get trapped... we couldn't risk attacking it, as we needed to wound all of the gifted Scouts, but it's possible that we'll be able to corner him and hit him with a Catapult on a future turn

Head of Intelligence: Espionage Report

These Cities have 50 Hammers or more in build items:
York (Elizabeth): 50 H
Madrid (Isabella): 72 H
Nobamba (Shaka): 57 H
Bulwayo (Shaka): 80 H
The Hague (Willem): 74 H
Timbuktu (Mansa): 213 H

See the attached file for help with more easily capturing the Espionage data

Work Boat Captain: We have met Louis!

Foreign Advisor: Besides us, only Shaka has met him...
Shaka is +1 Pleased toward Louis
Louis is +1 Pleased toward Shaka

Louis has 5 Cities and no State Religion

X King: Let us learn from last time and immediately Open Borders with him, especially since he has no known Worst Enemy and isn't the Worst Enemy of anyone else

Foreign Advisor: We are already getting Foreign Trade Routes with Louis, helping to replace those lost by declaring war on Willem

Louis does have Polytheism, Priesthood, and Monarchy, but is otherwise pretty backward... roughly similarly backward as Shaka... fortunately, nether of them has Alphabet, so they can't trade techs with each other

That said, Shaka is trading Sheep to Louis for Louis' Clam. Louis has no useful Resources to trade to us, only otherwise having excess Fish Resources

X King: We've made some great progress, but it's time for sleep. Perhaps the next player can prepare to pick the game up from here

We haven't revolted into Hereditary Rule yet, although we probably should. We could optionally whip a Forge in X-opolis, but doing so would just delay our Golden Age and we'd still have the issue of not being able to grow large enough before the Golden Age, so we should probably go into Hereditary Rule now, grow our Cities (at a minimum, grow X-opolis and Surfin' Turf), delay whipping in at least those 2 Cities, then after several turns (another 10 turns or so) be prepared to launch our Golden Age and hire a ton of Specialists... yes, it means starting a war and then being pacifists, but Willem had what looked like 2 Chariots, a couple of Galleys, and a handful of Archers to his name... not much to worry about for the short term

Link to the REAL saved game

BSPollux said:

Elizabeth ("Elizabeth wants to be treated like the queen she is. You need to impress her with unique status symbols, like...")
a) Rename the proudest ship ever to sail the oceans after her and gift it to her (needs at least 50xp to be worthy)
b) Build a huge statue of her and celebrate it with the biggest party of all time (construct The Colossus, Christo Redentor or The Statue of Liberty during a Golden Age that has at least 11 turns left at time of completion)(not the whole construction needs to happen during the GA, just the completion)
c) Bring her all the luxuries of the world (gift her at the same time: Gold, silver, gems, ivory, fur, pearls(clam), wine and silk. If she already has some, ignore these.)

Click to expand...

In order to fulfill c), we would have to ensure that Elizabeth has NONE of those Resources, otherwise she wouldn't take them in trade.

Gold = 1 Gold under Mansa's capital
Silver = 1 Silver in the Desert lands between Mansa and Isabella
Gems = We have plenty of them, as does Willem
Ivory = Mansa has 3 of them to the north of his lands, so we should be ready for a trading opportunity at some point (cancelling the Deer and selling him a second Resource along with the Deer... not so that we can give it to Elizabeth, as you can't broker a Resource, but so that we can get the Happiness from Ivory and can build the odd War Elephant)
Fur = We have 2 of them
Clam = An island between Elizabeth and us has 3 of them, so we would have to settle that area before her or else steal such a City from her
Wine = Not yet visible on the map, so large-scale, map-wide conquest would probably be needed
Silk = Not yet visible on the map, so large-scale, map-wide conquest would probably be needed

Elizabeth #1 is still probably our best bet


200-Gold Gift made on Turn 99 in exchange for Catherine #1

Think we should immediately trade Meditation (or something?) to Louis for his map. See if we can find Catherine or some of the other civs we haven't met. It would give guidance to the Work Boat Captain.

We look very good. Let us set-up our late game strategy as soon we get our last hint. I'm still willing to go for #2 for Elizabeth. How many xp do we need to generate to get 4 GGs?

If we go for Lizzie #2, then we will need the Forge and then we have to figure out how long it'll take to build as it must finish during the GA.

Should not be very hard to figure that out. We are still waiting for hint #1 for Catherine.

leif erikson said:

Think we should immediately trade Meditation (or something?) to Louis for his map.

Click to expand...

Great idea! I totally missed the fact that Louis will trade his World Map to us even though he is only Cautious toward us.

He already knows Monarchy, so him learning Meditation can't speed his way to Monarchy.

Neither he nor Shaka knows Alphabet, so it won't be easy for him to trade Meditation to Shaka.

So, selling Meditation to Louis for his World Map seems harmless enough.

Folket said:

How many xp do we need to generate to get 4 GGs?

Click to expand...

30 + 60 + 90 + 120 = 300 XP

We have earned 3 XP this turn and will earn a minimum of 4 XP next turn and 5 XP on the following turn.

At a rate of 5 XP per turn, it will take 300 / 5 = 60 turns

That number will go down as we build more Catapults.

It's actually not going to be all that hard to accomplish, now that we're well set up.

We don't even need to gift our boat to Elizabeth until AFTER we've captured all but 1 of her Cities... we would just need Open Borders with her while she has 1 City alive.

It could even be a Trireme instead of a Galley, if we want it to be, now that we have Metal Casting for building Triremes.

That said, a well-promoted Galley defended by a Trireme might be the better approach, as we don't want to risk our boat being sunk.

leif erikson said:

If we go for Lizzie #2, then we will need the Forge and then we have to figure out how long it'll take to build as it must finish during the GA.

Click to expand...

Actually, what we really need is the Mausoleum of Maussollos.

So, arguably, it could be worth it to tech Calendar instead of Compass.

Realistically, we won't be building the Wonder before our first Golden Age, though, as it costs 450 Hammers.

The best that we could probably do is send a bucketload of Workers toward Hippos (Horse City), send a Confucian Missionary there, build a Forge there, then do our best to complete the Wonder, but that's probably 30 turns off and we might not beat an AI to building it.

We don't dare wait that long to get Education or we'll have thrown away our competitive advantage, and we'll have delayed Astronomy relative to other teams that Lightbulbed Astronomy by a signficiant margin.

Basically, a normal Golden Age = 8 turns, while one launched when you have MoM at the time of launching the Golden Age = 12 turns.

In order to complete task #2, we either need MoM or we need to launch two Golden Ages in a row that don't benefit from MoM, then we need to complete The Colossus while there are still 11 turns remaining in the Golden Age... it's not as simple as it sounds.

We probably shouldn't build either The Colossus (enhanced by Copper) or MoM (enhanced by Marble).

The Colossus will obsolete when we grab Astronomy and lacking Copper, it's still relatively cheap, but not very cheap to build.

Assuming a City with Organized Religion, it's 250 / 1.5 = 167 H, which could have otherwise built 167 * 1.25 = 208 H worth of units (4 more Catapults, for example).

That's also not accounting for the time that it takes to build our Forge, while the calculation assumes that we'd get our Forge's Hammers multiplying on ever base Hammer (which isn't always true, so it might be more like 180 base Hammers before multipliers, instead of the quoted 167 base Hammers).

But, it's MoM that's the toughie, requiring 450 Hammers.

4 more Catapults means 4 more XP per turn, bringing us to resolving Elizabeth #1 that much faster.

So, if we do go for Calendar, it would be so that we can gift it to Elizabeth, and because it's on the path toward Astronomy. At least she would then be able to trade us a Spice Resource pretty quickly for extra Happiness, and she might kindly build MoM for us.

I was hoping to get Calendar in trade, but with us already getting Paper in trade and POSSIBLY getting Philosophy in trade (if another AI beats Mansa to the tech, he would abandon research on it, while only Mansa will trade us Philosophy as a monopoly tech without being Friendly toward us), and us waiting to Double-Lightbulb all of Education rather than dumping Flasks into Education, we need somewhere to dump our Hammers, and Compass might just as easily come in trade instead of Calendar.


Aqueducts
I forgot to visually scan the map for Aqueducts. Those Buildings are often quite easy to spot, so someone should look to see which AI Cities have an Aqueduct, as such a City is likely to build The Hanging Gardens. If no such City exists, then I'd much rather race toward Chopping The Hanging Gardens in Hippos instead of one of the other 2 Wonders, as we benefit from building The Hanging Gardens ourselves, earning pretty much our Hammer investment back, while the other 2 Wonders would give us their benefits if captured and The Colossus, unless we fail at our strategy, will obsolete before we'll even be able to capture it.


Roster
Leif, are you able to step up if The-Hawk and Htadus are unavailable? Are either of you guys out there?

Ok sorry didnt see the gift any earlier, updating now


Edit: Done

Btw if you trade maps I would be very interested in some screenshots