Logistics for Crusades

One thing that dissatisfied me in the original (ver. 1.0) of RFCE was the mechanics of how 'Crusaders' got to the Holy Land. They just disappeared from a place or places, then popped up several turns later at their destination. This ignores the very significant historical impact all of the troop movement had on cities in Asia Minor and the Italian peninsula, as the troops moved by land or sea.

I would recommend a mechanic where the player, in committing to the Crusade, has to determine his troops' path to reach the Holy Land (or other destination). If by land, this would mean he would need to have open borders with every nation along that route or he could choose to declare war on one or more of those nations in order to secure such a route. If by sea, the player would need access to a coastal city (open borders if it belongs to a foreign nation) to ship his troops. I'd also recommend giving the Byzantine Empire a choice in how to respond to the Crusades -- either ignore the Crusades (and risk a declaration of war) or invite the Crusaders through (a one-time/one-turn open-borders agreement that also carries the risk that the Crusaders could be deposited outside Constantinople if that is the Crusader's target). These changes would allow the Crusades event(s) to affect diplomacy within Europe in a historical way.

I would also recommend that there be benefits to letting the Crusaders pass through your lands or ports. Genoa, Pisa, and Venice all benefited tremendously by letting the Crusader armies pass through their ports, so I could easily envision a massive one-time bonus to commerce (or directly) for port cities that are used. (If you controlled a Mediterranean port, this benefit could apply for yourself). If you're running a significant food surplus and are on the land route, you might find yourself with an extra population in one or more cities, or extra armies that were lured away from the Crusades. I'm open for other suggestions as well.

There should also be a benefit when the Crusaders return, especially if they were successful. This would probably include a commerce bonus, as above, though there's an opportunity for either gold or science depending on if you carry back relics or books. This might also include extra faith points or access to special wonders: the Camposanto in Pisa, for instance, is a holy cemetery built on ground carried from Golgotha in Jerusalem. All kinds of possibilities here, but I think at least some of them should be explored while we have the opportunity with a new version of the game.

Mostly i like this. I always skip crusades, because there is no real benefit if you are not venice or france. Then its only an army grab thing. Also crusades do not give back unit.

Although it would be great, I don't think it will work. The AI won't understand it. And the human player can easily exploit it by not moving the new units to Jerusalem at all and just receiving free units.

I like the idea its very good and gives alot of flexability to the crusades.
I would like to suggest for the movement by land/sea, sea costs more commerce for the player controling the crusade and has a chance for some units to not reach the destination due to seacrashes etc. By land if you have open borders i suggest the crusading units being able to move more than the usual so they would reach the destinated city in time, if they turn off course or are not on the course or near it in X turns units will start leaving etc. Also If its possible to prevent abusement, if a city that isnt located in the middle east/constantinople, or targeted city by the crusades and the crusaders took it i think the following turn it should automaticly declare independence to prevent exploitment of the crusader mechanic, no matter the stability of the civ controling the crusade. Still the crusades mechanic has to be changed but there comes the problem with the AI and how it will use it.

Merijn: I'm not sure I understand. I'm not proposing that you receive a bunch of Crusader troops in your own lands and have to move them to Jerusalem (or elsewhere) yourself. I'm proposing that they'd still 'pop up' in the Holy Land, but that you'd have to establish a route (by land or sea) before they set off.

Also, I don't know how the AI here works, but I don't think it'd be too difficult to hardcode certain preferences. Portugal/Spain/France/Burgundy/England/Italy would all prefer a sea-route, the other nations (mostly in Eastern Europe) would prefer a land-route. All nations prefer to avoid declaring war to establish a route, unless they are much stronger than their opponent or really really hate that particular rival. The revised benefits of going on Crusade would be greater than the original benefits, so most nations would be inclined to join the Crusade unless they were already in a war and couldn't spare the troops, or were too poor to outfit them for the trip.

Gilgames: I agree that the most annoying part of launching a Crusade is that you don't get any units to return home as part of the deal. Sure, if you're the one in charge, you get a bunch of Great General points, but that's it, then they disappear. Can I suggest that that'd be one of the other benefits when a successful Crusader army returns home -- that each nation that participated receive a number of GG and/or EXP points? This would reflect how the now more-experienced soldiers returned home from their foreign adventures and rejoined their old army.

I'm not sure how the precise mechanics would go. You could either allocate a certain percentage of the EXP earned by Crusading armies in battle, or give each participating nation the full amount. You could apply that directly as Great General points, or provide it as EXP for whatever armies you left at home (priority to armies in your capital and ports, perhaps with a maximum amount of EXP any one army can receive). Or you could go with gilgames' suggestion and have each nation receive a few of their Crusader armies pop back into existence back home with the full EXP allotted from their foreign adventures.

Xfactor: I like the idea of having there be a monetary cost to going on Crusade (players and AI are banking on it being a success in order to pay for itself). However, I'm pretty sure that travelling by sea was much *much* faster and more reliable than traveling by land, so I don't agree with the idea of delays and desertions.

One major proposal I have, though, is that Crusading armies should not just pop up out of nowhere on a inland tile right next to Jerusalem. If they're traveling by land, the armies should appear on Arabia's border with the Byzantine Empire -- to reflect the real-world struggles the Crusaders faced in marching south to their destination, and the rationale for the creation of the Crusader States. If they're traveling by sea, the armies should pop up next to Tyre, or another major port, or some other demarcation point (even if that is a coastal tile beside Jerusalem). Much more realistic that way.

Publicola said:

Merijn: I'm not sure I understand. I'm not proposing that you receive a bunch of Crusader troops in your own lands and have to move them to Jerusalem (or elsewhere) yourself. I'm proposing that they'd still 'pop up' in the Holy Land, but that you'd have to establish a route (by land or sea) before they set off.

Also, I don't know how the AI here works, but I don't think it'd be too difficult to hardcode certain preferences. Portugal/Spain/France/Burgundy/England/Italy would all prefer a sea-route, the other nations (mostly in Eastern Europe) would prefer a land-route. All nations prefer to avoid declaring war to establish a route, unless they are much stronger than their opponent or really really hate that particular rival. The revised benefits of going on Crusade would be greater than the original benefits, so most nations would be inclined to join the Crusade unless they were already in a war and couldn't spare the troops, or were too poor to outfit them for the trip.

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What do you mean with "establish a route". Do you need a trade route to a city in the areas? Or do you need to have a path of discovered tiles?

To have a path seems logical, trade route cannot be a preq. for crusades. But if we discuss this, what about to create a crusader state as vassal. Or an option to do it or control Jerusalem we you captured it! i mean: france might own it as france, poland rather want it as a vassal. Arabs usually can overcome and retake it. Plus this vassal autocollapse in 1300.

I think the main focus should be on making the crusades worth participating for everyone. Right now, when I am not playing Venice, France or Spain I just always decline the calls, since I won't get chosen anyway and there is no point in participating if you don't.
Maybe a + diplo modifier with all other participants or some sort of economic boost if the crusade succeeds would be an option.

Merijn: by "establish a route" I don't mean a trade route. "Path of discovered tiles" is closer, but I'm actually not sure if you'd even need to have it explored (since Crusaders often relied on foreign merchants or mercenaries for assistance in travelling).

The basic idea would be to have the mod designate two routes: one being a path from your capital to the closest friendly coastal city on the Mediterranean (thus connecting you to the sea), the other being a path from your capital to the capital of the Byzantine Empire (thus giving you a 'land route' to the Holy Land). Then you as the player get to pick which of the routes your Crusader army will travel -- the travelling itself would not be shown (you'd pop up as before, though your final location might be some ways off), but you'd pick up the requisite costs and benefits of either path, including payment for use of shipping, diplomacy effects up to and including war, etc. If an AI has decided to travel through your territory when going on Crusade, you would pick up certain benefits as well, at least including a commerce bonus as the armies pass through.

Is that clear? It makes sense in my head, but I'm not sure it's coming out the way I want it to.

Gilgames: Outstanding idea. Should this be a new civilization/nation slot ("Crusader States," with a UU and UB etc.) or can anyone think of another way to make this a reality? I definitely like the idea of avoiding direct rule by European powers (this could even lead to changing France's UHV), and this would be both more historical and generate added benefit to Crusaders (you wouldn't be stuck with the high-maintenance, impossible-to-defend city if you succeeded). Lots of possibility here.

Chep: I agree that there needs to be more tangible benefits to going on Crusade, but I also think that making the experience more immersive and more historical would help integrate it into the rest of the mod. My proposal is meant to do both.

Chep said:

I think the main focus should be on making the crusades worth participating for everyone. Right now, when I am not playing Venice, France or Spain I just always decline the calls, since I won't get chosen anyway and there is no point in participating if you don't.
Maybe a + diplo modifier with all other participants or some sort of economic boost if the crusade succeeds would be an option.

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You get faith points for participating, which gives you a diplo boost with all Catholic civs and the chance of rewards from the Pope (gold and building religious buildings are the usual ones). IIRC, all civs also get a Golden Age for the first time they succeed in capturing Jerusalem, so that is a pretty sizeable bonus imo.

But yes, I agree that some sort of extra bonus in gold, happiness etc would be useful - perhaps a relic in your capital and three or four unique crusader units upon completion of a successful crusade. Although that would require some form of rebalancing of the mechanics for choosing a crusade leader, otherwise the same civ would keep leading the crusade and accumulating powerful units.

Publicola said:

The basic idea would be to have the mod designate two routes: one being a path from your capital to the closest friendly coastal city on the Mediterranean (thus connecting you to the sea), the other being a path from your capital to the capital of the Byzantine Empire (thus giving you a 'land route' to the Holy Land). Then you as the player get to pick which of the routes your Crusader army will travel -- the travelling itself would not be shown (you'd pop up as before, though your final location might be some ways off), but you'd pick up the requisite costs and benefits of either path, including payment for use of shipping, diplomacy effects up to and including war, etc. If an AI has decided to travel through your territory when going on Crusade, you would pick up certain benefits as well, at least including a commerce bonus as the armies pass through.

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I quite like this idea, although I don't think you should necessarily only get benefits, as the crusaders often pillaged and looted all civs as they passed through.

There are precedents in history as well, for example the Byzantine Empire used the First Crusade to recapture Nicaea, Ankyra and other cities from the Seljuks, but also lost a lot of diplomatic goodwill with the Catholic civs after preventing them looting recaptured cities. The Byzantines also weren't happy that Antioch was taken by the Normans after the Crusade instead of being returned to them. And the Second Crusade had to travel by land because the Germans were unable to negotiate passage with the Sicilians.

I think the crusade leader should have a dialogue to choose to travel by sea, which is expensive but gets the army there quickly, or through the Byzantine Empire which may result in the crusade having to divert to capture cities for Byzantium and thus arriving later and with fewer soldiers. There would also be a risk of diplomatic penalties with Byzantium due to looting.

Venetian and Genoese players should also get the choice to ship the crusade by sea, which gets them money as long as they have enough naval capacity in place to ship all the units - that would encourage Venice and Genoa to maintain large navies as IRL.

The Byzantine player will usually reconquer Jerusalem themselves, but if not then they should get the option to demand the crusaders conquer a city for them, but also have a risk of pillaging and barbarian crusader units appearing in their lands.

Those sort of mechanics should be fairly easy to implement, and make the Crusades a bit more dynamic.

All right, I'm going to try to condense everything that's been proposed so far. Each item can be taken separately as piecemeal reforms for the current game mechanic, or together as a wholesale re-engineering of the Crusades event.

Launching the Crusade

• After the Crusade is launched and the leader selected, each participating nation must determine its route to the Holy Lands. The computer offers at least two options -- one based on the path from the nation's capital to the nearest friendly Mediterranean port (yours or another nation's), the other based on the land route from your capital to the Byzantine capital (typically Constantinople).
• In a dialog box, the computer presents both of these options, along with the costs and benefits of each. Land routes take more time, cost your armies some health, and you must either secure open borders or declare war on each of the nations along your path. Sea routes are quicker and your armies stay in full health, but cost a bit of (perhaps a flat fee per unit).
• There may be restrictions on which nations qualify for a land or sea route. Nations on a land route must have a road connection from their capital city to the Crusading nation's capital. Nations on a sea route must have a certain number of ships stationed in their Mediterranean ports, to represent their carrying capacity for all the troops passing through. I'm not sure about this element.
• Nations that lie along either the land or sea route also have a choice to make. They can provide limited-time-only open borders for all Crusaders (with bonus to faith points), negotiate open borders with each Crusading nation separately (for gold or other benefits), or deny entry to the Crusading armies (risking a declaration of war).
• If entry is allowed, nations along the land route will gain (at most) 1 population in food-rich cities and some experience for units garrisoned in those cities. For nations along the sea route, they would gain a bonus of gold and commerce, and some experience for naval units stationed in Mediterranean ports. However, there is a cost for these nations: all nations that are participating in Crusade gain a substantial number of espionage points against any nation lying on the routes by land or sea.
• EDIT: There have been a few other threads mentioning the Crusades and possible changes to the mechanic, and one that stuck out at me was the proposal to allow players to choose which of their units join the Crusade. I very much agree. I suggest either a dialog box or a separate window like the old 'mercenaries' tab, listing various units you own and giving an option of which ones to pick. I would also argue that there needs to be a 1-to-1 connection between what units disappear and what units pop into existence in the Holy Land, so that units retain their previous experience and keep what experience they gain upon their return. You might also use the old mercenaries system of naming units based on their previous nationality (so, for instance, if the French were leading the Crusade, you might see a "Hungarian Armored Lancer" fighting under the French flag). It's fine if there are a few Templar Knights or Knights of St. John that spawn during Crusades --perhaps there could be an option for participating nations that have those corporations active, so they don't pop up ex nihilo -- but otherwise there should be a clearer connection between what units are sent and which remain behind.

Conquering the Holy Land

• Before the Crusade arrives in the Holy Land, it may be diverted to attack a separate target. This option is only offered to the richest nation that lies on the Crusaders' sea route. For a substantial cost in , that nation would receive the full stack of Crusader armies on the closest coastal tile to their destination city.
• When the Crusade travels by land to the Holy Land, the Byzantine Empire may attempt to take control of the army for its own purposes. For a substantial cost in , much greater than even the sea-route diversion listed above, the Byzantines would have a chance of taking control of the Crusading armies. The cost is reduced and the chance of success increased depending on Byzantine diplomatic rating with Rome, as well as its current espionage point total with Rome and the Crusade leader. If the attempt is successful, the Crusading armies would pop into existence under the Byzantine flag, and would not disappear once the Crusade is finished (or at least would stick around for longer than ordinary Crusader armies).
• If the Crusade is not diverted, within a few turns it will arrive in the Holy Land. Armies that were sent by sea will arrive first, and will be deposited on one of the coastal tiles near Jerusalem. Armies that were sent by land will arrive a few turns later , slightly weakened by the trip, and will be deposited on one of the border tiles between the Arabian and Byzantine Empires. Those armies will have to fight their way south, reflecting the historical progression of battles in the Holy Land.
• If the Crusaders are successful in conquering a city, the nation-leader has a choice. Either they can govern the city directly (as in the original mechanic), or they can spawn a new civilization: Crusader States. By default, this new nation's capital would be the city just conquered, and would be automatically vassalized to the Crusade leader. If the Crusader States are established, many Crusading armies will switch their allegiance to the new nation, and most importantly they will not disappear once the Crusade is finished -- these armies will remain permanently in the Holy Land as city garrisons.
• In future Crusades, if the Crusader States are still around, a few armies will switch their allegiance when they arrive, preferring to reinforce the local garrisons rather than seeking to conquer new cities with the others.

Returning from Crusade

• If the Crusade is successful, armies belonging to the European leader will start to pop out of existence. Over the next few turns, those armies will 'return' to each nation that participated in that Crusade. I'm not sure if this should take the form of having actual units pop back into existence in those nations' capitals, or not. If not, I suggest that on their armies' return, each nation receive 50% of the experience/Great General points received by the Crusader leader.
• In addition, upon the return of a successful Crusade, each participating nation will receive a certain amount of and , depending on which cities were conquered (more for bigger cities). They will also receive faith points, on top of the points given for simply participating in the Crusade (more faith points for more religiously significant cities, particularly Jerusalem or Damascus)
• If Jerusalem was conquered, I suggest that each participating nation also receive a relic. Given their prevalence in historical Europe, I'm not sure it makes sense for relics to be such a rare commodity (only two of them were found in the vanilla RFCE, if I recall correctly).
• Finally, I also suggest that there be Great or National Wonders (either adapted from existing ones or newly created) to take advantage of this Crusade mechanic. This could be as simple as providing a production bonus if you possess the 'relics' resource, or more complicated.

I'm pretty sure that's all, though I hope I didn't miss anything. Again, these can either be taken as piecemeal reforms (for instance, create a 'Crusader States' nation but disregard the rest) or as a wholesale re-engineering of the game mechanic. Hope this helps!

One thing!!!

Travelling on sea should give unhealthiness, not on land!

Everything is pretty good, even tho with this changes Arabia games are gonna be hell, not that they were a cake walk now

I don't know if this expanded form for the Crusades will get off the ground with the new version of the RFCE mod, but if so, here's another idea for the proposed 'Crusader States' civ.

Given that the Crusader States relied so heavily on regular reinforcements from Europe, I propose we borrow from the 'Sword of Islam' mod and make that this civ's Unique Power. I do suggest putting a slightly different spin on it, though.

Instead of just giving an extra unit per __ turns, I suggest giving this civ a timer or countdown clock of sorts. Each time that clock hits zero, the civ receives either an extra population or an extra unit (these can either be auto-placed, or give the player a dialog box allowing them to pick which city they should go to).

I think these reinforcements should run out at a certain point -- assuming the Crusader States are successfully defended and stabilize, they shouldn't continue receiving reinforcements after 1400 or so. We could either put a hard limit in the UP itself ("Crusader States receive reinforcements from Europe until 1450 AD"), or gradually increase the target value for the countdown clock so that reinforcements become more and more difficult to receive.

All of this would of course be separate from the actual Crusade mechanism, which would occasionally drop a whole bunch of European soldiers in your area to fight off Arab attackers or reconquer cities you lost. Most of those Crusaders would return to Europe once the fighting is done, but at least a few would stick around and transfer their loyalty to the Crusader States, further reinforcing the leftover garrisons.