Diplo for MIA

Bede · Dec 20, 2005

All we want to do now is stall until we meet the requirements of our earlier deal for Republic. Tell them we will research whayever they don't, but there needs to be a clear understanding on the handling of their free tech before we commit to anything.

And the gloves are off when it comes to trading overseas.

Daghdha · Dec 21, 2005

Based on the comments I have tried to create some sort of proposal to MIA. Please comment/revise/discard.

THE X-MAS TREATY

1. Construction will be researched by KISS. In excange for the turns on zero science that MIA gets, KISS will share MIA's free technology on discovery.

The slower we research, the more gold MIA can pile so their fear of us slow burning construction might be eased? If they want more we could promise wines when harbour is built...

2. Each team is free to to trade whatever they want to whom they want.

This seems like a "that's it"-issue for us

3. When entering the Middle Ages MIA starts researching the path to Education. KISS starts researching other technologies. On the discovery of Education, MIA and KISS will excange each others technologies so that the same techs are known by both.

If they agree on the free tech-part it doesn't matter what it will be, so we can pre-decide they go Edu.. Thing is we think they're eager to get Edu. because they have misunderstood the mechanics of the GLib. They think that by discovering Edu. it becomes obsolete for anyone in possesion of it, hehe. We play along in this if it means they do "peaceful" techs. We could leave this issue out of agreement, but I think it's good to give the impression that we are looking for a deal that lasts (beyond the Republic swap)

4. KISS and MIA are allied in conflicts, but not isolated. That means each team has the obligation to support the other in any conflict that might occur with other parties. This should hold regardless of the nature of that conflict. The extent of support cannot be pre-decided, but is a matter of showing the good will in times of need.

This is a lame attempt at maintaining their belief we will invade overseas first and will ask them for help. It also esures them we will give support if Nuts attack them (which they will not we presume).

5. This agreement replaces earlier agreements and can only be nullified if:
a) An administrator of the MTDG, on request from one part, deems the other parts actions as a violation of the agreement.
b) Both parts agree on declaring it nullified.
c) A new agreement is written and signed by both parts.

The only purpous of this is to try sneaking out of the old peace deal without too much notice, but I suspect MIA will raise the issue immediately. If they agree, we can hit without notice just before they discover edu (or whenever we decide).

Beorn-eL-Feared · Dec 21, 2005

As I see it, #4 binds us to non-agression. Perhaps "allied in conflicts" would be less binding vs each other.

Whomp · Dec 21, 2005

Nice work Dagh.

This is a huge step if this is agreed to by us. If we do agree then MIA is not our target and TNT is. One benefit of this would be we could kick off an earlier GA than MIA. Unless they are attacked they would need to get some sci/com wonders (waste) to kick it off.

I'm with Beorn #4 seems too confining since longer term Donut is the better partner for a non- aggression pact IMO. I don't have an answer how to word it but I don't think we want anything to do with MIA's conflicts plus they have said they don't think they're ready. In a conversation with Fe, I suggested they simply plant hops and settlers on the other island for resource denial. I would not be surprised this is their attempt to be passive aggressive with the other teams. They already have galleys overseas.

Whomp · Dec 21, 2005

Here's what I have forwarded to the admins for clarification. #6 is the big issue here. For instance, if poly is not included all with the other techs then it can be construed as an act of war and sabre rattling can commence
IM(and Tubby's)O. I have also requested clarification on #7 as Tubby has suggested. As any good SGer would play it if we are out of line then we should abide by all agreements in an honorable fashion.

Tubby Rower said:
Here's the transcript from the pic's that are the actual agreement. I copied them word-for-word. IMO, if they break #6 by not giving us everything then they break the treaty. No admins needed.

But what we do need clarification on is the bit about what #7 means. It's in writing and intent is not an issue. We need an interpretation of the actual wording by an independent party.

1. VOID

2. MIA and KISS land units stay outside of each other's actual borders, during peace.

3. MIA and KISS sea units don't stay on the same tile in each other's territory for 2 consecutive turns, during the peace

4. MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favoured Nation status". Most Favoured Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn at the monoploy beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount of 20% if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.

4a. Deals with other nations which go beyond simple technology trade at the monopoly beaker cost for, must be agreed to by the other party

5. KISS will get Writing while MIA gets Masonry and Mysticism. As soon as KISS gets Writing, the team with the best research capability starts on Code of Laws, while the other team starts on Philosophy. Code of Laws will be discovered first and given to the other party before Philosophy is discovered, so that Republic comes as a free tech.

6. Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured Nation" status.

7. MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have passed after the discovery of Republic.

8. On first contact with an unknown team, either KISS or MIA will share, automatically when their game save is sent, this fact with their continental neighbor in written form.

Whomp · Dec 21, 2005

Comment from RegentMan....

RegentMan said:
My opinion (I've CCed Ginger_Ale):

Number six states that after writing and the republic are discovered, both teams share techs. So if M.I.A. and K.I.S.S. don't start giving each other known techs after the republic has been discovered, then I believe it has been broken.

Number seven states that M.I.A. and K.I.S.S. are at peace indefinately. If needed, either team can cancel this peace ten turns after the discovery of the republic. However, they must give a ten turn warning before doing so. So if the republic is discovered on turn 85:
*M.I.A.'s at peace with K.I.S.S. until turn 85.
*M.I.A. cannot announce a cancellation of the peace until turn 95.
*M.I.A. must wait ten turns after they announce a cancellation of the peace.

Nitpick: Technically, there is no in-game technology "republic." Thus, one could interpret the discovery of republic as a nation entering that government, or that since one can't discover the republic, neither nation must share techs and must stay at peace forever.

I hope this helps.

Whomp · Dec 21, 2005

And Ginger Ale's response...

RegentMan said:
My opinion (I've CCed Ginger_Ale):

Number six states that after writing and the republic are discovered, both teams share techs. So if M.I.A. and K.I.S.S. don't start giving each other known techs after the republic has been discovered, then I believe it has been broken.

Ginger_Ale said:
The way I read this: KISS and MIA must share all known techs between them once Republic is known (as Writing will already be known), at that instant. It doesn't relate to future tech discoveries. Once Republic is known by MIA or KISS, both teams should have the exact same techs. I think that is what RM was saying.

RegentMan said:
Number seven states that M.I.A. and K.I.S.S. are at peace indefinately. If needed, either team can cancel this peace ten turns after the discovery of the republic. However, they must give a ten turn warning before doing so. So if the republic is discovered on turn 85:
*M.I.A.'s at peace with K.I.S.S. until turn 85.
*M.I.A. cannot announce a cancellation of the peace until turn 95.
*M.I.A. must wait ten turns after they announce a cancellation of the peace.

Ginger_Ale said:
Right. The earliest peace can be 'officially' cancelled will be 20 turns after the discovery of the Republic. Before war is declared, there must be a notice 10 turns beforehand. Therefore, it's basically what RM said.

RegentMan said:
Nitpick: Technically, there is no in-game technology "republic." Thus, one could interpret the discovery of republic as a nation entering that government, or that since one can't discover the republic, neither nation must share techs and must stay at peace forever.

Ginger_Ale said:
Yeah yeah yeah. Good luck, let us know if you need any more clarifications. I would forward a copy of this to MIA too. I hope this helps.

I've pm'd GA and RM that we won't need to forward a copy of this to MIA unless MIA doesn't produce poly since we would then consider it an act of war.

Daghdha · Dec 21, 2005

The ruling by admins makes Dagh a happy guy and the draft on agreement has to be re-done accordingly. #4 is to be understood as a decoy and not an actual agreement. Reason for this is MIA will not have any conflict before we hit them so there is no "support" to be given from us. It is only hinting at the suggestion that we will invade overseas and ask MIA for support (which we will not), thereby lowering their guard vs us. Anyway, the words from RM and GA means this has to be worked over. I will prolly not have time to do that before Friday night so I suggest someone else do it.

Edit: Well, before we word any proposal about what happens AFTER the deal for republic we should perhaps send this:

Hail Light Green Neighbours

Now that the time has come to do the deal including Republic, K.I.S.S. wants to make clear that such a deal must result in M.I.A. sharing all their know techs at that moment, including Polyethism. If M.I.A. refuses to do so, K.I.S.S. will consider the prior agreement nullified by M.I.A. action. Before K.I.S.S. can make a proposal regarding which team should start working on Construction, this issue has to be resolved.

Greetings from up north
Team K.I.S.S.

Bede · Dec 21, 2005

OK, that's more like the kind of hardball I was looking for. However, I prefer the blind side approach. Can we have enough force on the border, however we want to arrange it (you guys seem to think I play war at the Bugs/'slinger/g-man level when all I really do is execute what they have laid out), to hit MIA the turn after they refuse us Polytheism and we come out of anarchy?

I don't think we need to tip this particular hand by letting them know we are aware of a way that their refusal embroils them in war, let hem think we are fat, dumb and happy in our empire that is bursting at the seams with food and that they are leading us around by the schlong.

Own · Dec 21, 2005

I don't understand the rules here, if we break our treaty, is that breaking the rules or just a bad idea for reputation?

Bede · Dec 21, 2005

I don't think breaking the treaty breaks any rules, but it is an act of war, so plan accordingly. It is however very bad for our reputation as an "honorable" opponent, and, to me, that is important, right up to the time the knife goes into the back of Caesar - "For are not they all honorable men" said Brutus of the assassins.

Daghdha · Dec 22, 2005

Bede said:
OK, that's more like the kind of hardball I was looking for. However, I prefer the blind side approach. Can we have enough force on the border, however we want to arrange it (you guys seem to think I play war at the Bugs/'slinger/g-man level when all I really do is execute what they have laid out), to hit MIA the turn after they refuse us Polytheism and we come out of anarchy?
I don't think we need to tip this particular hand by letting them know we are aware of a way that their refusal embroils them in war, let hem think we are fat, dumb and happy in our empire that is bursting at the seams with food and that they are leading us around by the schlong.

The hardball approach comes from the response given by team. My impression is that the FDH-approach has been seen as too soft and that MIA has to be told they cannot play us. I have in numerous posts advocated we play along and pretend we don't don't know what bears do in the woods, but my opinion is only one among many and I should of course chat with fe as rep. for the team, not representing myself. We cannot go both ways and I will happily change the draft in a FDH-ish manner :crazyeye:

.

Daghdha · Dec 22, 2005

After chatting with Major Idiot Whomp, reading the PM's by Regent and Ginger plust considering the posts in here it is my understanding that we should:

-Consider the assumed refusal by MIA to include Polyethism in the deal for republic as a breaking of our agreement and thus a hostile act that nullifies said document dated Sept. 21 (The seven tiers of friendship).
-Prepare to attack MIA without notice after they have gone into anarchy upon recieving Republic.
-Until then act Fat, Dumb and Happy so to not raise any suspicion in the MIA camp.
-Require Poly either from Nuts or by selfresearch.

There has also been discussions on a closer relationship to Nuts, but that is beside the scope of this draft. Whomper's said he'll do a final version to send south so consider this a starting point. The aim of this treaty is to give the impression we want a longer term deal so MIA feel secure and can keep on expanding.

THE REVISED X-MAS TREATY (FDH-STYLE)

1. Construction will be researched by MIA. After Republic is discovered, KISS will pay MIA gold that equates the cost for full research between discovery of Republic and finishing of Construction.

Decoy- MIA will, next turn, start on constr., but when we trade Rep. we will not start paying anything. We will hit. This is one of the 3 fe suggested so I believe they will accept it.

2. After republic is discovered, each team is free to to trade whatever they want to whom they want.

We should not act stupid in a too obvious way so a bit of ehh..."grumpieness" might be in place. This is not an issue and we could back off some to get the rep deal off the ground.

3. When entering the Middle Ages MIA starts researching the path to Education. KISS starts researching other technologies. On the discovery of Education, MIA and KISS will excange each others technologies so that the same techs are known by both.

Again, this will not happen but MIA are eager to discuss it so we make a proposal.

4. KISS will be granted the option to buy MIA's free technology, on discovery, at half the beaker cost.

Another bait, pretending we plan on some sort of co-op into MA.

Important is that we do not raise the question about Poly included in the rep. deal. If we do that and they accept (not likely since fe has already said "no way"), we will not get out of our peace treaty and will have to wait 20+ turns before we hit including 10 turns notice and first strike. What we do is play along and wait for the deal to take place. After techs are swapped we say that Poly is missing. They, already in possession of Rep. will not agree to send Poly for nothing. We give no response to that, or stall, and wait for them to go into anarchy, then we strike supplying a DoW stating the fact that they have broken our deal and that we see that as an act of hostility and a nullifying of our past agreement.
I think it would be best to let Nuts know as little as possible about this plan. They should not be interested in us taking out MIA to fast, but prefer a drawn of blood bath for obvious reasons. If they sense we are about to hit MIA they might notice them. What we should do is to keep a friendly attitude regarding other matters.
@Whomp (or anyone else interested): Comment, revise, discard

gmaharriet · Dec 22, 2005

VERY devious! I LIKE it!!!!!

Rik Meleet · Dec 22, 2005

Moderator Action: Dagh... please don't. The use of stars to bypass the autocensor is something that is not welcome on CFC. Remember; even in KISS' private forum there are minors who have access. Please update your language to an adult level.

Daghdha said:
don't know jack s**t, - so a bit of *****ing

Daghdha · Dec 22, 2005

Oh, sorry... :blush:

. I'll keep that in mind and I will immediately sign Own up for a crash course in ethics :lol:

...but the x-mas card was fun wasn't it..hehe

EDIT:

Whomp in Top Secret War Thread said:
I didn't think you could pre revolt without an additional government option like monarchy.

I know some of this is relative to war but Bugs would prefer to keep this thread to war strategy so let's move MIA discussions to the MIA thread.

Good point and I guess you're right. That would be good and relieve us from the possible problem Bede noted (if MIA doesn't have monarchy that is).

Whomp · Dec 22, 2005

No major changes and the email was sent.....

Spoiler :

Daghdha · Dec 23, 2005

A small note on the timing of MIA-attack. Even if it would be a blast to hit during MIA anarchy, it is not a make it or brake it. We could let them revolt and do some more turns on construction which would give us 5-10 turns extra to build up/move more troops. The warmongers/mm'ers should make an estimate on this. To avoid having to pay MIA anything, according to X-mas treaty, we should hit the same turn they go out of anarchy (and starts research again).

Admiral Kutzov · Dec 23, 2005

the smart idiots are doing well! :goodjob:

Daghdha · Dec 25, 2005

Cham has sent a reply to our x-mas treaty:

Dear KISSers:

As you may have heard, the magic box that Feaurius III has been using
to communicate with you seems to have been cursed. Since we are a very
long way from discovering "Computers", we are not certain when he will
be able to have the hex removed. All our remaining team members will
make an effort to make themselves available to chat, but if you need
to send a message, we ask that you send a copy of any correspondence
to our gmail address so that we can be certain that we will receive it
timely (as long as there is at least one of us here ).

We are certainly interested in the recent deal you proposed, but there
are several points that need clarifying:

First, what is the final deal whereby you divulge the secrets of
Republic to MIA? I apologize if much of this was discussed already by
you and Feaurius, but we want to be certain there are no
misunderstandings.

Second, we understand that you wish MIA to research Construction, and
"KISS will pay MIA gold that equates the cost for full research
between discovery of Republic and finishing of Construction." I'm
afraid you are going to have to dumb this down for us a bit. Our sages
do not understand the proposed payment.

Third, you propose that after Republic, then MIA and KISS can trade
with the backward barbarian civilizations at will. Does this mean that
MIA could trade for Construction, if desired? What effect would that
have on the rest of the deal? Admittedly, we do not really understand
the point of this proposal. If MIA and KISS are both in the Middle
Ages, and Doughnutia and TNT are not, there won't be any available
trades except for cash. We believe that it may be better to agree not
to trade with them at all, or, if we do, then to split the cash gained
equally so that we do not have incentive to underbid each other. We
await your thoughts on this point.

Fourth, you propose that MIA research to Education, and that KISS can
buy MIA's free tech for half the beaker cost. While we feel this type
of agreement makes perfect sense if MIA receives Monotheism as our
free tech, it seems detrimental to KISSMIA if we receive Feudalism or
Engineering. Our intelligence indicates that Doughnutia may be
building the Great Library. MIA has no desire to see that
"civilization" receive free knowledge of Feudalism, for example, as
they would under your proposal. If you can explain how this method is
in the best interests of the Green Alliance, we will be happy to
discuss it.

Finally, you propose that upon discovery of Education, MIA and KISS
will exchange all techs to be at tech parity. We are concerned that
wording the proposal this way gives both teams an incentive to
research slowly and gain more techs than they give. However, we agree
that we should be at tech parity so the team that researches less
should be given the option to buy any excess techs at half the beaker
price (our legal departments can work out the exact language, but
hopefully you get the idea).

We await your response so we may continue this mutually profitable
alliance through the Ages.

Chamnix
MIA President and acting letter-writer

The first note is a bummer and must be dealt with carefully. The rep deal is our ticket out of the peace-treaty and we should clarify it in a not too clear way (if possible).
The second is for geeks dpt to phrase correctly but fe's suggestion was

fe333au said:
1. A possible solution is that one team research Construction, while the other team pay an equitable rate to the one who is set on maximum science rate.

The third. There will be opportunities to ship goods when harbors are up so I don't understand them there. We could mention Monarchy but I think best not :king:

.
The forth...well, maybe it's time to inform MIA that the GLib will have benefit for Nuts even if MIA gets Edu., but I'm not sure. We could stall this one and propose we do a new deal on it once the free tech is revailed.
Finally, the slow burn still annoys them and they think they can drain our treasury by out researching us. I believe we could agree to their proposal. For a non-numbers guy, it looks fair enough and I don't see us being that much slower in science...yet. Comment, revise, discard.

Draft on reply:

Hi there fellow Greenies, too bad fe is off-line but we believe things can be worked out pretty well anyway.

The deal for republic means that MIA sends the techs they have gathered during the time KISS has done research on Republic. Technically we could carry it out so that MIA sends half the bunch on the same turn that KISS discovers Rep., after KISS getting them, we send Rep. and next turn recieve the remaining techs from you guys.

About Construction our proposal is in line with what fe himself suggested in an official mail:

A possible solution is that one team research Construction, while the other team pay an equitable rate to the one who is set on maximum science rate.

Click to expand...

We're not sure on how this was ment to work, but one way it could work is that you do the research and we pay for it. If we agree on that, then next step is to agree on a resonable sum. Feel free to make an offer or suggest some other solution.

On trading we feel that now that we finally have the possibility to trade, we do not want our hands tied to our back. It may be that no beneficial trades are possible right now, but when there are we want to be able to consider, and possibly execute, them. We could agree on informing each other on what deals are under consideration. You would of course be free to trade construction if you'd which.

About going for Education we could await the outcome of mother RNG and discuss from there. Fe's suggested MIA should go towards Education because you will get there faster and that the (possible) Great Lib. build warrants speed. We are very intersted in going for feudalism/engineering since we're planning on a "visit" overseas before out GS's are out-dated. But, as said before, we can wait a while with this one.

On swapping techs upon the discovery of Education we're fine with your take on it.

Finally, we ask you to consider in what way MIA could aid in a mission overseas. If you are right about Doughnuts, they would be our first target.

All the Best
Team K.I.S.S.

Diplo for MIA

Deity

Absent Minded

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