GOTM 04 - Pre-Game Discussion

I tried a couple of test games with with the GOTM settings. Couple of things I found:

1. If you go for early religion and you're ruthless with chopping everywhere, you usually can get an early religion, and it's not too hard to go for the religious-path wonders. (On one of my test games, I managed to build all four of them - stonehenge, parthenon, pyramids, oracle. I later followed up by building versailles and spiral minaret - good progress towards a cultural victory!).

2. The ice-age land seems to have a lot of tundra and plains and very little grassland, except near the equator. That means cottage-spamming is a lot harder to do - there are relatively few city sites that have enough food around to prevent you having to farm (rather than cottage) the plains. I was relying a lot on fish/clam/etc. for food. In general, I got the impression you have to think a lot harder than normal about where to place your cities so they'll be able to grow AND give you an income.

3. Be careful about AI's huge military power on emperor. Today's practice games were the first ones I've really tried on emperor. Overall I got the impression it's not too different to monarch - except when you go to war. The one extensive war I tried was I thought a textbook example of how to plan it. I had my state religion in all but one of Alexander's cities so I could see how big his army was. I bribed Monty to declare war on Alex, then spent about 5-6 turns waiting and watching the events. Then, once I could see loads of Alex's units tied up with Monty, I attacked. Yet despite all that, within 2-3 turns he just had dozens of units, apparently turning up from nowhere. Not only that, but the turn I went to war, he had *nothing* more advanced than swordsmen and horse archers. About 3 turns later, every other unit of his seemed to be a maceman (though only on my front - he was still mostly throwing horse archers at Monty. grrrrr!). I ended up having to completely retreat to regroup after taking just one city and pillaging his iron. I don't know what the bonuses the AI gets are, but if that's typical of emperor-level wars, then wars are going to be very tricky in this GOTM.

jayeffaar said:

Good point. In my latest test, as soon as I founded my second city, my research went from 80% to 50%. Without a good early source of gold, extra cities are going to hurt.

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Be careful here - a higher percentage is not always better. For example, if you have one town getting 5 commerce at 80% = 4 beakers.

Two cities at 50% getting 5 commerce = 5 beakers.

The 50% is therefore better than the 80% in the above scenario.

Also on the higher difficulties, I feel taking a short term hit in science is worth it for a long term city count. In emporer, growing quickly at the start is going to be a strong strategy. It may slow science initially, but once the cities get up and running you will be glad for more cities (up to a certain point of course). I don't want 3-4 cities if I could have 6-8.

I will use tree chopping to speed settlers and workers in the early part of the game and just not worry about my science rate until I get the 6-8 cities mentioned above (assuming I can get that many). I want to be as big as the AI.

If you expand slowly to keep science high (70%+), I am guessing you will find that you don't have as many cities as you would like when the last city sites are taken.

Huh - Emporer? Ice Age?

No thanks. Last month's was hard enough and there's no way I'm gonna bother wasting my time getting hammered on this game. It's a shame for those of us still new to the whole Civ thing that the difficulty level has gone up so quickly, we're effectively discarded and thrown out of the competition.

After a little brainstorming me thinks I'll follow this path:

Tech path to start: Fishing -> PolyT -> BW -> Pottery -> Writing

Production schedule: warrior -> warrior -> work boat -> worker -> warrior -> Settler -> Stonehenge (maybe)

Ideally lead out in front of the settler and make the second city chop a second settler right away followed by a worker chop going from 1 to 3 cities in 6 turns or less. Pick worker tech path after that.

Build lots of Prophet Wonders back home. Axe rush somebody. Anybody and pray I can hang on for the resulting carnage to make a culture rush.

culdeus said:

Hi, the AI STARTS with 2 archers, 2 scouts, 1 worker, 1 settler for 6 total units.

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and I am supposed to know that how? I've only played one game above prince and that was the last GOTM.

However, as far as the starting settler is concerned...by 3000BC they had two cities, but in 3200BC they were all building a settler and had only one city. Did every single one of them LOSE their second settler to barbarians? or are you maybe mistaken?

As far as strategy...I still think getting one of the 3 early religions is best, I'm gonna go fishing-> poly, and if I miss out on hinduism, I'll go masonry->mono to get judaism. I see no need for a food resource on land when I'll be unable to grow past 4 anyway at that time...and I half expect to get hunting or AH out of a hut...I usually do.

I also still want a second settler to start out with on adventurer. Even if I don't use it immediately(and I won't unless I see a perfect city site), it will definitely be nice to be able to found a city at a second nice city site as soon as I find it, rather than taking 10-12 turns off in my capital to build one.

and on a side note to everyone who has stated that adventurer will be for noobs or people who don't know how to play...I want to say I am offended by those comments. Just because I have never played on emperor before and don't feel comfortable playing contender on this difficulty level does NOT mean I'm a noob, nor does it mean I'm stupid or an idiot. It just means I haven't played this level before. I know just about everything about playing the game that most others do, I just do not apply it as well yet, and this desire to make me and others feel inferior simply because we do not, is offensive.

culdeus said:

After a little brainstorming me thinks I'll follow this path:

Tech path to start: Fishing -> PolyT -> BW -> Pottery -> Writing

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@Culdeus: Think you might need the Wheel in there as well before you can get Pottery

thrallia said:

However, as far as the starting settler is concerned...by 3000BC they had two cities, but in 3200BC they were all building a settler and had only one city. Did every single one of them LOSE their second settler to barbarians? or are you maybe mistaken?

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@ Thrallia: I think Culdeus is saying they start with 1 settler - which founds their first city. The settlers you see being built in 3200BC are founding the second cities in 3000BC (or thereabouts....)

thrallia said:

and on a side note to everyone who has stated that adventurer will be for noobs or people who don't know how to play...I want to say I am offended by those comments.

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@Thrallia: I don't get the impression that people are saying that - rather we are being encouraged to try Emperor level even if we haven't previously played it before and that using the Adventurer bonuses may help make the high difficulty level somewhat more palatable. I've won (badly!!) all the previous GOTMs but won't hesitate to play Adventurer in this GOTM and I don't think people would look down on my choice.

Thrallia said:

...I want to say I am offended by those comments. Just because I have never played on emperor before and don't feel comfortable playing contender on this difficulty level does NOT mean I'm a noob, nor does it mean I'm stupid or an idiot. It just means I haven't played this level before. I know just about everything about playing the game that most others do, I just do not apply it as well yet, and this desire to make me and others feel inferior simply because we do not, is offensive.

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We are all nOObs (although everyon'e defenitition of this term is different), hasn't been out that long yet... the GOTM is only on it's 4th month, who knows who will win this time

But you are right being new to a game does not mean that you are stupid or an idiot, it just means that you have a learning curve on some of the fine deatils (i.e. AI starting units on Emporer, I don't even know of the top of my head).

As for applying your knowledge, I look forward to reading your spoilers for new appliactions which worked and which didn't work.

But hopefully, it was just a misunderstanding of posts and you don't feel offended cause that would be bad

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In any case as for the start, having a pop max out at 4 is harsh
but having it max out at 5 instead of 4 (religion) is pretty tempting...but wait half priced temple = happiness 6.....

Hmm could a strategy be revealing itself?

I completed the last GOTM and didn't submit, mainly because my computer messed up twice, and once at the beginning.

Anyways, I do not think I will win on Emporer, but I will try.

If we're on a penisula, hopefully I can found a 2nd city at a choke point, refuse open borders, and settle in my own time.

I think I'll try for a diplomatic victory...

I notice that if we settle in place, our fat cross will contain an additional grassland and plains hills, enshrouded in fog, to our west.

The top and left most plains tile tells us that the tile to its west is grassland. It is more important to note that the tiles to the west and southwest of that grassland tile (barely exposed on the top left of the map...are also at LEAST grassland). I pray for hills

(Look at the other grassland/plains tile combo that is in view. Same terrain pattern as the top left one.)

JerichoHill said:

I notice that if we settle in place, our fat cross will contain an additional grassland and plains hills, enshrouded in fog, to our west.

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Ummm - no it won't. The fat cross expands out 2 squares in all directions (except diagonally) which takes us to the plain tiles in full view.

IMHO the tiles in the fog to the west are (from N to S):
- grassland
- plains hill with forest
- plains
- grassland hill
- grassland
- grassland (on the coast)

Tried Ronalds test game. Both Buddhism and Hinduism were gone by the time we had Fishing, and when we got to Pottery the AI already had Writing and Monotheism and started settling our lands, while barb Archers were approaching our capital. Built one Scout which was immediately surrounded by bears and got killed instantly.

Thrallia said:

and I am supposed to know that how? I've only played one game above prince and that was the last GOTM.

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Not trying to belittile you but make you aware of what the AI starts with. The only way to know this is to open up world builder and see. It's tough in a message board sometimes to convey tone. Sorry GB.

peas

Big Pig said:

@Culdeus: Think you might need the Wheel in there as well before you can get Pottery

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Ribannah said:

Tried Ronalds test game. Both Buddhism and Hinduism were gone by the time we had Fishing, and when we got to Pottery the AI already had Writing and Monotheism and started settling our lands, while barb Archers were approaching our capital. Built one Scout which was immediately surrounded by bears and got killed instantly.

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Really? I did quite a few starts with ronalds game to 1AD and quit. I was finding getting hindu post-fishing very doable. It's not 100% though for sure.

Scouts are a non-starter past Noble IMO. Too weak to fight against any barbs at all. I try to bait weak AI to attack warriors on forested hills to get them to the XP needed for 2x forest movement.

Ronalds game I would usually settle W of the gold and then plop a city down near the sugar and flood plains to the west and seal off the tundra area to the North. Two so-so cities could be founded in there. No open borders with anyone.

@@ Big Pig. You're right of course. I totally missed that.

My main observation was that we can predict two tiles that we can't even see yet, that are beyond the tiles 99% enshrouded in darkness

I also tried Ronalds game, as a OCC until 125B.C. (second Great Leader) (still built a settler but never put him down, as I was just messing around, which is evident based on I didn't explore at all, so no huts(they get pretty dangerous at this difficulty))

Attached are my screen shots:

They pretty much say it all

Buildings which you can't see in Delhib are:
The Great Lighthouse
The Oracle

Other than that, If this was the real game I would be ramping up axemen to find iron and then macemen to take over the world.

I tried Ronald's start position posted earlier and had the cultural victory locked up before I quit playing (thanks Ronald, btw). Probably would have ended around 1650AD, which isn't that great.

What I learned: starting on the edge of the continent, it's harder to get religions to spread to you because you often only have one bordering neighbor (on the other hand, it's easier to keep the peace with one neighbor). Getting religions to spread is essential for the earliest cultural victory possible. But founding the early religions still probably isn't necessary. The early ones spread easier since your cities won't have religions in them yet. The hard part is getting the later religions. I will be putting a low premium on founding early religions and a high premium on founding late ones--preferably ALL the late ones (it can be done).

If we are on an island alone, the cultural victory is going to be much harder because of the religion spreading issue, and founding an early religion may make some sense. If I don't have at least 4 religions in my empire by the time the last one is founded, I may have to change strats and go for the space race. I doubt this will happen, unless we're on an island alone.

Memphus,

Can you tell us which techs you reserched, and which you traded for?

Thanks

If we can assume that the top of the visible range is actually ocean shoreline (It sure looks that way... but we can't use the warrior to know for sure... he is 'strategically' placed on this map not to help), then (given that this is a peninsula) for me I would consider moving my starting position to the south shore, one spot W of the current warrior position, and place my 2nd city right between the 2 forest squares to the N. This would maximize gold production (see all the shoreline that is exposed on the bottom), and still give access to the clams (after first border expansion). For the 2nd city, it would have both forests to chop, and also quite a bit of shoreline income.

To me it seems that the current location is a bit of a waste of the peninsula; lots of land coverage, but minimal shore coverage, which is where much of the initial gold production is.

Of course, the reverse order is also an option, but the valuable clams would not be available until the 2nd city. On the other hand... the capital would get the northern forest chops... in the south we have no guarantee of any chops at all.

If I were to play adventurer class (and potentially have 2 settlers), this I think would be close to a slam dunk. Given that I was smoked by GOTM3 and find Prince level a real challenge (win about 50%) of the time, I may go with the adventurer for this.

I'd be interested to hear your reasons for/against this tact... all part of learning this fine game.

mike p said:

I'd like more commerce. No river, so hooking up resources and your second city will take longer, as well as less commerce. The clams will give some commerce, but neither a camp on the deer or a pasture will. Still, with 4 food bonus tiles and one fresh water lake we can probably cottage a lot of the plains.

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i counted. if you dont care about specialists, then the food bonuses around the city, give enough extra food, that at size 20 (working every tile) you will have 4 extra food if you build cottages on all of the plains and grasslands, and a mine on the hill.
cows = 3/3/0 so 1 extra food
deer = 4/1/0 so 2 extra food
clams =5/0/2 so 3 extra food each (with lighthouse ofcourse)
lake = 3/0/2 so 1 extra food there (again with lighthouse)
and the city iteself is 2/2/1 so another 2 extra food there.

so at size 5 with a lighthouse, and working the "food" tiles, you'll have 12 extra food every turn.
as there's 7 plains and one hill, you only need 8 extra food from other tiles to support those. so you'll have 4 food extra if you build no farms at all.
this will allow you to have a size 22 city, 2 of them specialists, before your city stops growing completely.

and that's a LOT of cottages you could have there (11 to be exact)

mid game production in the city will be horrible though. without workshops, the total base production of the city is a measly 16.

Thrallia said:

...Just because I have never played on emperor before and don't feel comfortable playing contender on this difficulty level does NOT mean I'm a noob, nor does it mean I'm stupid or an idiot. It just means I haven't played this level before...

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... which means that you, like me, are new to this level. We're newbies, noobs for short. Not sure why you'd be offended (I'm not) since the label, in it's basic definition, fits. It doesn't have to be insulting and I didn't feel like the guy who used it first in this thread was trying to be insulting.

It is true that given an extra settler, a lot of noobs may not realize the danger and would use it right away, killing their research rate. It doesn't mean that people who would do that are idiots. That would just be lack of experience.