ALC Game #5: England/Victoria

Round 9: to 1800 AD

The round opened with my discovery of Scientific Method and entry into the next game era. I then started researching Physics immediately, looking forward to the free Great Scientist. Meanwhile, my stack of British infantry continued advancing towards Madrid. Shades of Sharpe:

O'er the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away...

(Historical aside: it's rather inaccurate to have Rifling required for Redcoats, since the British Infantry that fought in the American Revolution, India, and the Napoleanic Wars used muskets, not rifles. Rifles of the time were slower to load, though more accurate, and were therefore used by less regimented skirmishers, and on a fairly limited basis (Napoleon refused to use them at all). Still, the unit's domination of their era is certainly accurate.)

Just outside the gates of the Spanish capital, my troops were brought up short by this news:



I did a double-check and found out that Isabella had not, in fact, built the Buddhist shrine yet! So now I was in a quandry: if I took Madrid on this turn--which I was quite capable of doing--I would lose Isabella's Great Prophet and have to supply one of my own (imminent in London) to build the Mahabodhi. And I really wanted to use him for the Taoist shrine, since that would give a nice jolt to Hastings--which is not just the Taoist holy city, but my science city and a commerce city to boot. Nice to have a shrine there.

Would Isabella use the GP for the shrine? Or would she hang on, as the AI seems fond of doing, for a golden age?

I decided to give her some time to think about it. I marched my stack away from Madrid and southeast to Seville (o'er the hills, of course). Before I even got there, sure enough, Isabella used the GP for the shrine on the very next turn.

Well, I was committed to taking Seville first now, which I did. I used my four Accuracy-promoted catapults to strip away the defenses with one bombardment, then did the standard collateral-damage attack with several other Cats. I then attacked the city defenders. Not with Redcoats, but with several Macemen who were close to their next promotion--especially those at City Raider II, so they could earn City Raider III before being upgraded to Redcoats. I even have a CR II Axeman, diligently trying to earn his next promotion:



With Seville in my grasp, I turned northwest towards Madrid once more.

Meanwhile, I finished researching Physics before anyone else and earned my free Great Scientist:



Coventry is a very good commerce/science city (over 50 flasks/turn), so I sent him there to build an Academy. If I'd been running (or anticipated running) the Representation civic, I would have merged him into Hastings to multiply the base 6 and the civic-bonus 3 flasks/turn.

Taking Madrid was a little tricky because I temporarily found myself short of Catapults. I should have built more of them before starting the war, not during it. Ah well, live and learn. As a result, I had to forgo letting more of the Maces and the Axe earn their promotions and left the heavy lifting to the Redcoats:



The Buddhist shrine was now in my hands. My next Great Prophet appeared in London, and I sent him to Hastings:



I can't recall if the gold from the shrine goes towards commerce and research, or straight to your gpt total. I believe commerce multipliers work on it, but not science multipliers. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I can live with that. Because a science city is by its very nature a top-notch commerce city, I've been building commerce multipliers in Hastings after the available science multipliers were complete. So the gold from the shrine should get multiplied in some way. Meanwhile, I've started spreading Taoism to my cities. Buddhism has remained my SR, however, and I've been spreading it overseas, to Peter first. I hope to convert him and create a little tension on that currently-Jewish continent.

Speaking of Peter, he came by offering a tempting trade:



Even though I have the Pyramids, the offer was tempting. Qin has beat me to Democracy, which means two things. One, he has a leg up on building the Statue of Liberty, especially since he's Industrious as well. Two, around this time, he switched civics to Emancipation, which exacerbated the war weariness in some of my cities. I had to use the culture slider to compensate.

Nevertheless, I turned Peter down. Look how few turns it will take me to research Constitution: three! This is why Financial is, admittedly, overpowered. Combine it with land-grabbing through war-mongering and cottage spam, and you gain not just money, but a huge research advantage. Qin doesn't really have a tech lead on me, he's just ahead on one or two branches of the tree. I've been focused on military techs while he's focused on civilian ones.

And Isabella also showed up to plead for her life--well, in her inimitable haughty way:



Wow. This is one of the very few times--no, the only time--I can remember an AI civ offering me a city. Of course, it's a worthless city on top of a desert hill, almost completely encompassed by my borders, with only a copper mine on a neighbouring hill to recommend it.

But would you look at that: thanks to the sharing-the-faith bonus, which is of course big with her, Isabella is only "annoyed" with me, not "furious". And are those tears welling up in her eyes?

I think she's still hot for me.

But the best break is a clean break, babe. Sorry, no can do. It was fun while it lasted. We'll always have Paris...er, Madrid. Actually, I have Madrid now, so forget I said that. Kind of tactless of me.

So thanks for offering me Salamanca, but I'd rather take it on my own:



One razing with extreme prejudice later, and Spain is no more than a memory.

For this game, anyway.

(I'm looking forward, even though it'll be a while yet, to an ALC game playing as Isabella. Spiritual and Expansive, Mysticism and Fishing, and Conquistadors. Should be an interesting game. I'm tempted to skip ahead for that one.)

I know Eggolas was urging me to get a Great Engineer, but that's tough without the Pyramids or Ironworks. Instead, Coventry popped a Great Merchant:



Normally I'd send him overseas to finance upgrades, but most of those are done, and look how much gold I have in the bank! Between the war booty and running the slider a little lower than I could to build up funds for upgrades, I'm awash in an embarrassment of riches. I really should go after Communism and the Kremlin soon, since I can have a lot of fun rush-buying things.

The GM got merged into Madrid when it came out of revolt. It's building a bank now, and once I go back and research Corporation, it will get Wall Street. I've decided to build Ironworks in Guinness instead of Madrid; I have several coastal cities capable of producing ships now, and in fact, the great armada is at anchor just outside of Wicklow, ready to set sail.

Yes, I think it will be either domination or even conquest this time. I mean, just check this power chart:



No one else is really close to me, and I have all these veteran Redcoats, now being joined by Cavalry and Cannon, with Frigates and Galleons to shuttle them across the ocean. West Point is complete in York. Infantry and Artillery aren't far away either.

I think it's a little late for cultural, and though space race is a definite possibility, the thought that someone like Peter could steal the game diplomatically is NOT appealing. (Yes, Cabert, I probably should work on my diplomatic game; trying killing everyone, friend or foe, may not be the best approach in every situation.)

Qin has Rifles, and Grenadiers. He has Steel for Cannons too. He'll put up a good fight. The Monty game's domination win was done by scratching out another handful of tiles when I already had the game in the bag. In the Hatty game, it was simply about border expansion. This will be a REAL warmonger's win.

C'mon, it's just too much fun to resist, isn't it?

Here's the map:



And the saved game file:

My votes for conquest since you havent done that yet.
About shrine income, your right, it goes straight into your gpt and it is mutiplied by any commerce buildings (market, grocer, bank) just like a great merchant super specialist is. Science multipliers have no effect.

Severus said:

About shrine income, your right, it goes straight into your gpt and it is mutiplied by any commerce buildings (market, grocer, bank) just like a great merchant super specialist is. Science multipliers have no effect.

Click to expand...

Accurate, but I'd quibble a little bit on the vocabulary. The list here are more properly gold or wealth buildings. Harbors are commerce buildings (as far as trade routes are concerned) and don't do squat for gold per turn. (Edit: nevermind - I agree with Krikkitone's distinction)

Regarding Shrine income it looks like you are making a common confusion between Commerce and Gold

Commerce...
1. Comes from
Terrain (luxuries, Cottages)
Trade Routes
and The Palace

It is multiplied by Bureaucracy (and ONLY bureaucracy)

Each city collects its Commerce and then, using the Slider divides it up into
Flasks
Culture
and
Gold

To these are added any thing you get from specialists (which can produce all three)
Buildings (None Produce Research, Many produce Culture, The Shrine Produces Gold.. and other religious produce gold with the Spiral Minaret)

Each of these is then Given thier Individual Multipliers (from Buildings, Civics)

Then (for Science and Gold) The amounts from all the cities are totalled up and go into your Imperial Income/Research output.


So Shrines benefit from Marketplaces, Grocers, Banks, and Wall Street.

(Also Bureacracy doesn't benefit Shrines, or Science/Gold/Culture Specialists... it Does benefit Production specialists though)


Harbors aren't Commerce Buildings really, they are Specifically Trade Route Buildings



One final Thought... What are you doing building units outside of York !!! even without Kremlin, those Cities would be better building Banks, etc. or Missionaries, and when the Missionaries are done Wealth (and in the meantime strip their productive Capacity for Cottages.

York should be building one unit every two turns, they should ALL be Cash Rushed [OK I guess York is building them every two turns anyways... but basically if there is a unit in York that is Started, ie production In the box, you should buy it. (until the overflow is so much that the unit is one turn from being bought)... if you don't have enough cash for that, lower the slider (you don't need mopre techs, just to not fall too far behind in the meantime) and concentrate on Gold in other cities. [OK I also understand the need to get a bunch of Cannons out since you just got Steel... but still Lower the Slider and Buy those when you need them]


Conquest Mght be a fun Win... I didn't see the Victory board but you could probably do it and still keep the Jewish Holy City, (There really aren't too many other worthwhile Wonders)

Obviously, you are in really good shape here.

From the diplo screens, it looks as though you've an opportunity to crack open Pax Judaica - a conversion by Peter and a shared war against Fredo would likely lock up the Russian vote. Bremen is an easy target too, and it may save you from having to research Steam Power. (I'm thinking speed here. My suspicion is that diplomatic would be the fastest conclusion here, and I'd be bored by the dominance). The danger, such as it is, is that Peter runs over the Germans and takes the #2 rank in population - you may need to bribe him with more techs to prevent that.

Guinness - I think you need to change your tactics a bit here. For Guiness to become a true production monster, it needs to work the tiles. I'd recommend slapping down farms first, so that you can goose the city up to size 20, then cut everything over to production. Of course, you'll need State Property as well. The oil is a nice bonus - but don't put a well on it; the well is only 2 hammers, the workshop is 3. Get your oil from the northern tundra.

There also seem to be many green plots that you aren't using here. Again, not worth fretting over at this point, but something to try to learn from for the next game.

Krikkitone said:

Harbors aren't Commerce Buildings really, they are Specifically Trade Route Buildings

Click to expand...

Let's see... the boost that you get from harbors is multiplied by the bureaucracy bonus... which is multiplying commerce. OK, fair enough - I retract my earlier comment.

VoiceOfUnreason said:

Accurate, but I'd quibble a little bit on the vocabulary. The list here are more properly gold or wealth buildings. Harbors are commerce buildings (as far as trade routes are concerned) and don't do squat for gold per turn. (Edit: nevermind - I agree with Krikkitone's distinction)

Click to expand...

But commerce buildings are gold or wealth buildings so i dont see what separate distinction you're making. There are only 4 types of multiplier building: science, production, commerce (or gold) and harbors for trade routes. The only three commerce buildings you can build (markets, grocers, banks) are the only ones which can affect shrine income.

Edit: I see you already pointed that out to him, thanks krikkitone.

Severus said:

But commerce buildings are gold or wealth buildings so i dont see what separate distinction you're making.

Click to expand...

Take a look at this thread where somebody or other put together a beginner level strategy guide. Note the commentary starting from post #16.

But the distinction being drawn is a careful one - people regularly get confused in those places where commerce and gold are not interchangeable, so taking care to distinguish the terms in all cases has value.

Conquest might be doable. Raze everything that is not a Holy City or has a WW and crush them one by one. If you can get Assembly line before you fight Peter, that's better for you. I like the idea of buying the airports too. I seldom play anything but Pangea, so I never say a use for them...

Gnarfflinger said:

Conquest might be doable. Raze everything that is not a Holy City or has a WW and crush them one by one. If you can get Assembly line before you fight Peter, that's better for you. I like the idea of buying the airports too. I seldom play anything but Pangea, so I never say a use for them...

Click to expand...

Yes, that's my thinking about the other continent. No sense wasting units guarding any cities lacking something spectacular, unless I need them for airports. Qin has a couple of cities with Wonders (I think the Temple of Solomon is in one city, and the Parthenon is in another), but other than that... I see rubble. Lots of rubble. Bwahahaha...

VoiceofUnreason said:

Take a look at this thread where somebody or other put together a beginner level strategy guide. Note the commentary starting from post #16.

Click to expand...

I almost forgot that was you setting me straight on gold versus commerce. Krikkitone, thank you for that very clear explanation of how the multipliers work. I hear you on the military units, but as you said, I just got cannons and wanna build a bunch. I'll try your suggestion with rush-buying.

Good suggestion on growing Guinness, too, VoU. I certainly have more than enough workers to pull off a couple of relatively quick multiple-tile reworkings.

What about civics, everyone? I'm still running Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Caste System, Mercantilism, and Organized Religion. I don't have access to Emancipation or State Property yet, but I could obviously bee-line to them if anyone thinks they'd be worthwhile. If I need to grow Guinness to 20, I can probabably hold off on SP until it's just about there. But there's the Kremlin to consider. Cabert made a good point: I'm NOT Spiritual, so I need to plan the civics changes carefully.

And technologies? I left off researching Biology. Once that finishes, how about:

Corporation for Wall Street
Steam Power -> Assembly Line for Infantry, factories, the Pentagon
Communism (the Kremlin; civics change?)
Railroad -> Combustion -> Flight
Electricity -> Industrialism
Artillery
Radio

That gives me the modern military units. After that, if the game goes on, I could see myself getting Fascism for Mount Rushmore, then any other military techs I want or need.

I'm not sure if Constitution and Democracy are going to be worthwhile to me--I'm basically looking at becoming a military state. Heck, I might even go back to Slavery and Theocracy.

Thoughts?

Sisiutil said:

And technologies? I left off researching Biology. Once that finishes, how about:

Corporation for Wall Street
Steam Power -> Assembly Line for Infantry, factories, the Pentagon
Communism (the Kremlin; civics change?)
Railroad -> Combustion -> Flight
Electricity -> Industrialism
Artillery
Radio

Click to expand...

You may be able to extort Steam Power from Fredo. Or get it back as a peace offering after destroying Bremen.

I'd go for Communism next, preparing to convert any cities with 60+ hammer potential to join the war machine (London?). If you are going to drop the sliders to buy rush, then it might make sense to convert your science city to specialists.

Um, and why is London running Artists, instead of priests (cough *angkor wat* cough)? I'd probably farm over London as well - you built the epic, you might as well use it.

VoiceOfUnreason said:

My suspicion is that diplomatic would be the fastest conclusion here, and I'd be bored by the dominance).

Click to expand...

I think you're fishing with the wrong bait. I've been throwing diplomatic into the stream for a few days now and haven't had so much as a nibble. I don't think Sisiutil likes diplomatic victories. ;-)

The danger, such as it is, is that Peter runs over the Germans and takes the #2 rank in population - you may need to bribe him with more techs to prevent that.

Click to expand...

There's a little known (I think) technique you can use sometimes to prevent the AI from being too successful in a war. When you have a mutual enemy, one of the "Let's discuss something else" conversation options in the diplomatic screen is "Why don't you attack ..." You can suggest a specific target city for the AI to focus on, and he'll say something like, "We'll do our best!"

If you pick your recommended target carefully, you can help make the war go the way you want. You need to make sure the target isn't so far away that the AI ignores you. You also need to make sure it's not so nearby and/or so poorly defended that he just walzes right in and takes it.

Another thing you can do is tell him to attack the city that you're about to conquer. If you're lucky, he'll send in a few units before you get there to help soften it up. Then you'll take the city which ensures that the AI doesn't.

You need to find a balance with this between what you consider effective diplomacy and what seems like an exploit. At some point if you abuse it, you're just taking advantage of the AI's stupidity, but within reason I think it's a fair way of controlling the AI's actions.

So VoU recommends going after Freddy first, by taking out Bremen. Then see if he's willing to give up Steam Power for peace. I have my first two Galleons of troops right off the east coast of Chermussia. (Gerussina? Russinany? Whatever...) Dropping them off in a well-fortified location on German soil (think forested hill) might help with the extortion, though they would probably get bumped all the way back home.

Yeah, the more I thought about Communism, the more attractive it got. State Property, the Kremlin for cheaper rush-buying, and spies. And since you asked, I'm trying for a GA in London for culture bombing the handful of cities I'll keep on the other continent. Shortly, I'll be focussed on building military units rather than missionaries. I might build the Hindu shrine if I get another GP, but I'm tempted to just merge them into Madrid.

Dr. EJ, no, I don't like dippy victories. I've only used them when I fail at domination. It's a victory, but it tastes like ashes. Now if I aim for it from the start some time, using REAL diplomacy rather than the votes of a conquered and cowering population, I might enjoy it. That's another victory we can watch for, along with culture, if the opportunity arises.

Anyway, just for the heck of it, here's a few more screenshots of the sitch at 1800 AD.

First off, the map of the other continent:



Wow, it's big. I hope I'm not biting off more than I can chew here.

Since the northern half is split between China and Germany, I see myself going up one side and down the other. It's just a question of which side first. Qin is stronger and more advanced, so it makes sense to make him the primary target. On the other hand, there's Bremen and tech extortion from Freddy to think about, and with him gone, there will be very little cultural pressure on the Chinese cities I keep.

Speaking of which:



Okay, so Beijing, with the Parthenon, and Shanghai, with the Temple of Solomon, are keepers. The Great Lighthouse and Hanging Gardens are obsolete and expendable. Notre Dame, however, is somewhere in Russia. I'm thinking of going after Peter last, but whichever city contains it would probably be my first target, if its location lends itself to that.

The tech standings. Where I am in the tree:



And, vis-a-vis myself and Qin in particular:



Diplomacy, and, yes, I DO know the meaning of the word, thank you:



Another reason to go after Qin first: relations with Peter and Fred are better. I'd rather they didn't all gang up on me at once. THAT'S where my diplomatic skills--such as they are--will be tested. If I can't convert anyone (and I'm not sure I want to waste much more time trying), a switch to Free Religion along with State Property would be in order.

Speaking of civics:



Assuming I go after Communism and State Property next, and probably Free Religion, what should the Labor civic get set to?

And speaking now of religion:



Heh, I get a charge out of that--everything but Judaism is MINE.

I can see an argument there for staying in Organized Religion for awhile. I can't build monasteries anymore. Buddhism is in all my cities, but I have shrines for Confucianism and Taoism and could spread those everywhere to make the shrines even more profitable.

And finally, the victory condition standings:



You can see that even with owning my continent, I'm well behind what I need for land area. Granted, I have a couple of Spanish cities that need to come out of revolt, but I still think I'll be below 50%.

So it's looking like conquest, kids. Should be fun.

You already blue screened the Parthenon.

Make sure you look at the culture layer, which will help you judge the amount of overlap you have to deal with.

Also, pay attention to the unique units (Russia is one tech from Cossacks, Panzers are coming, if Fredo lives long enough).

you're not that far away from domination.
Just taking out freddy's cities would be enough.

I think it's a bad move (unless GA maybe) to go for Qin first because all empty spaces will get filled byt either peter or freddy.

I would go for Freddy first (3 some : bremen + 2 coastal , say stuttgart and cologne).
If you plan for conquest, you don't need to keep those.
But domination is still a lot easier than conquest (one war + a few settlers + culture slider et voila).

I vote for domination (can be done in 30/50 turns if you commit to it).

But if you want a conquest,best option is to finish off freddy first, keep just one city (Berlin) rush buy an airport there (yes you need flight asap), and don't bother changing civics (foreign trades when killing everyone is bleehh) unless you go for nationhood (!)


If you go for domination, it's all the more a good reason to keep those civics :
with caste system + mercantilism, knowing you have the sistin chapel, you have a border expansion in 2 turns (1 free artist). If you need it faster, just put a second artist there (caste system!). Nationhood isn't a good idea, since you need the population to remain high (well, moderate drafting is still possible, but not to the same amount as in conquest).
You still need flight to bring in the reinforcements!

IMHO flight is the most important tech now.
Who needs infantry? you have redcoats, remember. They already have the 25% bonus vs gunpowder. And redcoats are drafted for 1 pop, whereas infantry costs 2. In fact you should avoid assembly line as long as possible.
after flight, you should aim for radio (needing electricity) = bombers.
Redcoats after bombers dominate infantry easily. Even mech infantry can be managed (depending on the odds you accept ).

VoiceOfUnreason said:

Take a look at this thread where somebody or other put together a beginner level strategy guide. Note the commentary starting from post #16.

But the distinction being drawn is a careful one - people regularly get confused in those places where commerce and gold are not interchangeable, so taking care to distinguish the terms in all cases has value.

Click to expand...

Ok i see what you mean, i suppose i just think of them as commerce rather than wealth, its purely a case of semantics as i instinctively make the distinction when needed. Sorry for any confusion caused to noobs out there.

Yeah, for Domination, Mercantilism might be the only thing I might change (to State Property... you can peel of a pop unit to serve as an Artist)
also that Artist pops the Borders in 1! turn (4+2)+100%=12

[and Don't go for Great Artists, its a lot cheaper just taking the offending Cities]

But Mercantilism is Pretty good, considering they'll probably all be unhappy with you

Now For Conquest... you don't need border pops, and you won't be manging a Large Empire, But I'd Stick with Mercantilism anyways (if you are Isolationist, Free Market doesn't beat it until your cities are Large...you're close but not that close)... Essentially any Economic Civic won't give you a substantial boost, so just stick with what you have

I'd agree for Either of those, Flight is the desirable Tech (in which case Steam Power is the important one to trade for

Now if you want to do Space Race, You want to get Friendly with the Jewish continent so that you can benefit.... at this point, Free Market becomes better, and (because your cities are developed) Caste System becomes relatively worthless, so switching it over to Emancipation is what you Want to do.... unfortunately that's not available, so for Space Race, I'd trade up to Democracy and get Emancipation+FreeMarket [Stick with OR for the Missionaries]
(that means you could stop building units and start on Buildings, Missionaries, or Research)

The Engineer would be nice for a space race, but hardly necessary. Conquest is interesting, but you're going to hit domination percentages before that happens, aren't you?

Space Race: still in the cards, although you'll probably get a quicker win with domination at this point, assuming that you pick the right opponent. If SR is the goal, then you can spam your religions on the other continent. It will help with diplomatic also if one of them heads for Mass Media.

Domination: Always tough on continents, but fun to watch! If that's the goal, you'll have to hit them hard while they're defending with Musketmen and Longbows. Reinforce the beachhead immediately. Airports become especially important as does Industrialism for Infantry and Tanks.

Nice, deliberate game so far.

Wait a second. *Six* religions in hand, and you're throwing over the cultural win?

Okay, if that's how you want it. But six cathedrals = +300% culture production before ever you touch the slider. You could take a culture win dead easy if you cared to.

So, to be clear: are we going after domination, or conquest? Because you can get domination by knocking out one neighbor and part of another -- all of Qin plus a couple of cities from Peter or Fred should do it. You can probably do that by 1900 or so. Conquest, now, you have to burn your way across the world...

Well, it's your game. Will watch with interest.


Waldo

Eggolas said:

It will help with diplomatic also if one of them heads for Mass Media.

Click to expand...

Several people have raised this concern. Is this really something to worry about?

First, I've read in several places that the AI is programmed to only and always go for space race. Does it ever actually go for Mass Media and build the UN? I've never seen it happen in any of my games.

Second, let's say someone does build the UN. So what? Sisiutil has 44% of the world's population. He can stalemate any victory votes that come up unless he does something totally moronic like voting for somebody else.