ALC Game #5: England/Victoria

Sisiutil said:
Decision made.

Cultural.

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

Yay, cool! I had expected that you'd go for domination again, especially with Cultural having the reputation that you need to commit to it early on. I think it's great that you're going for the challenge of outracing the AIs with your culture (as late as 1800, no less), rather than doing the safe thing and just killing everyone. :goodjob:

I find it unsurprising that Peter didn't stay Buddhist after you converted him, given that there seem to be basically no Russian Buddhist cities in your 1858 religion spread screenshot. But he also seems to be amenable to suggestions to change civics, so you could gift him Liberalism and make him adopt Free Religion to at least break up the Jewish bloc. You can always make him and Fred like you better by giving them money or cheap techs (if Fred is so backward) or trading resources.

He also seems to be willing (on the 1800 diplo screenshot) to go to war with Fred. What does he want for this? And what does anyone want for starting a war with Qin (after they're no longer Jews)? If nothing else, Qin had the second-largest population on the planet in 1800, so would be your opponent in UN elections if you or he builds the UN. It would be nice to make his neighbours make war on him, which you could then join from overseas without ever firing a shot if you put some boats off your Eastern coast. You might be able to buy their votes that way, as well as slow everyone's progress towards the spaceship.

By the way, London will reach Legendary status much much earlier than your other two cities. This means that it doesn't need the maximum number of artists that it can possibly support, because you only win after city #3 is Legendary anyway. If you want, you might be able to restore some of your precious cottages in London for extra gold and research, unless you're gambling for GAs from London of course.
 
one reason to run max number of artists is to produce great artists, not just pump culture. also, how much are you being benefited by stateproperty? with caste system you could run an extra artist in each city which would at about 6 culture per artist (and GP points) before anymodifiers.
 
Oralelk said:
Yay, cool! I had expected that you'd go for domination again, especially with Cultural having the reputation that you need to commit to it early on. I think it's great that you're going for the challenge of outracing the AIs with your culture (as late as 1800, no less), rather than doing the safe thing and just killing everyone. :goodjob:

Sounds like a bad decision to me. You should always take the easiest path, and if that path is too easy, then you should try playing at a higher difficulty level.
 
Zombie69 said:
Sounds like a bad decision to me. You should always take the easiest path, and if that path is too easy, then you should try playing at a higher difficulty level.

Well that's your opinion, other people have different ways of challenging themselves (like trying each individual Leader)


Anyways

1st: Population units in the 3 cultural cities should be either on 3+ Food Spots or Artists, no Hammers/other specialists are necessary/desired

The Artists are used to either generate GA (London), or just to generate Culture (other two)
You might want to 'despecialize for a while to get the population up

2nd: because you Trashed the cottages around the Cultural Cities, the Slider is Nearly useless The better use of the Massive amount of commerce you have in the Non-Cultural cities is Gold

By setting the Slider to 60:40 you can make sure that no Cultural Building takes more than 1 turn, and no Wonder takes more than 2 Turns (one to put some production in) I'd Rush Hollywood and then the Pentagon in Coventry (If you haven't already) Then the production they have can be used for producing Culture

That Mega pile of Gold can also help you diplomatically
first through Mass upgrades to discourage attackers, and Secondly through Bribes.

I agree that getting Liberalism to the Other Continent is a good Idea (either through Trade or Gifts), but you might as well spread Buddhism[Wall Street in Madrid] anyways. (as well as Taoism, Hinduism and Confucianism)

PS Look at Hastings it is going to give you a Great Prophet in the next few turns, Tell it to Focus on FOOD, and get any specialists left and turn them into Artists NOT Priests (and NOT Engineers for Hastings). If you stop those GPP then London has a Chance of giving you an Artist first.

So given that you are going for a Specialist win This is the most important thing

in the three Cities NOTHING but FOOD and ARTISTS... Hammers are unnecessary/wasteful Commerce is unnecessary, Research and Gold are unnecessary.

The massive amount of Gold you get from the outside ~1000+ gpt if you go 60:40 will provide all the "Hammers" you need.
 
Sisiutil said:
So, I'm not the world's greatest mathematician. I have several builds to go, but how do they look for cultural score progress? Have I messed up and ruined my chances, or are they progressing well?

The most obvious problem is Coventry (not a big surprise there). You really need to get some gold and rush some more cathedrals there. It looks like you've only built two there so far (plus the Hermitage and Broadway), and you need some more. Also, switch those miners and that Engineer to Artists. This is the city that will determine if you win or lose, so you should be buying your buildings in this city, not building them! Three more artists means 72 more culture, knocking the number of turns you need to win from 102 at present to 87... a savings of 15 turns!

Also, get those farmers off the plains farms, and get them on the grassland farms. You've got a new citizen coming, and you won't be able to support new Artist if on the amount of food you're producing right now. You'll also get him a turn earlier.

Second, you're only 43 turns away in London. You don't need (and never did need) any Artists in London. London was never in doubt. All those lovely wonders you built there are providing more than enough culture on their own. Either rebuild those cottages, or swap the Artists for Merchants to get you more gold.

On second thought, rebuild those cottages. With all those wonders plus all those merchants, you'll never get a Great Artist from Coventry or Hastings, instead of the London crap-shoot.

Third, there's Hastings. All those priests are hurting your chances in there right now. They're putting that city behind the Coventry on the Culture curve. Swap them for artists right away, and it'll be fine. Don't build buildings in Hastings. Rush-buy them.

Finally, stop exchanging commerce for culture. It's being wasted. There is so little commerce in your three culture cities that it's not helping much there, and you don't need the happiness either. Drop it down to zero, and use the gold you're saving to rush-buy more culture buildings, especially cathedrals, in Coventry and Hastings.

To sum up:

Hastings is in last place right now at 108 turns. Swap the Priests for Artists, and it'll be at 78 turns. This can be improved, of course.

Coventry is in second place, at 102 turns. Change the mines and Engineer to artists, and it'll be at 87 turns. Rush-buy more cathedrals, ASAP.

London is currently at 43 turns. Just using the culture from your wonders, it'll be at 61 turns. No need for artists in this city. Specialists here would sabotage your chances for a Great Artist.

Drop your culture slider down to zero. You don't need the culture or happiness, and do need the gold.
 
Well I definitely disagree with turning London off Artists... not for the Culture but for the Great Artists

Each of the three Legends can probably get 2 more GPs before the win (London especially because of National Epic), so max the number of Artists in each to max the chances of a GA. (I'd actually put Prophets that you ended up getting.. Like Hastings will almost certainly give you for its next GP.. into Shrines)
 
Krikkitone,

Good point. I'd overlooked the National Epic. London is set up to be a Great Person farm, so it might as well farm Great Artists.
 
Zombie69 said:
Sounds like a bad decision to me. You should always take the easiest path, and if that path is too easy, then you should try playing at a higher difficulty level.
Usually I would agree with this. Maybe I should explain my thinking a little behind my chosen victory condition.

1) The instructional nature of the ALC threads. Posters have been asking to see a cultural victory played out here for some time, probably so they could learn more about how to achieve this victory condition. This seemed like the best opportunity I've had so far to achieve a cultural win, so I went for it, for the sake of everyone learning from these threads (which includes me!).

2) The challenge. The easiest way to win isn't always the most fun. The game is fun if it's a challenge, if the end result is in doubt. To achieve a cultural win, I have to pretty much avoid war, and that means--potentially--leaving the AI civs alone to pursue a space race win. And I left the decision to really go after cultural a little late, so it looked like I would really face a challenge of turning around my civ (and especially those three cities) on a dime to build culture as quickly as possible.

3) Change of pace. I've won two domination and two space race victories in the previous ALC games and figured a change of victory condition would be refreshing. In addition, I've been warmongering a lot in this game (and in previous ones) and the more I thought about moving around all those modern units and micro-managing war weariness, the less enthused I got about pursuing conquest or domination. As I said, cultural lets me indulge my inner builder.

4) Focus. I had to choose a victory condition anyway, and cultural presented the opportunity to pursue a very clear route to victory, with very clear decisions to make and tasks to perform. The road to conquest or domination seemed much murkier; I could barely even decide who to attack first. In that way, in some respects, I suppose cultural looked like the "easiest" win.

Ultimately, though, this is a game and it's about having fun. When I get to the point in any Civ IV game where I have to choose a victory condition, I choose the one that offers the most fun--which is not necessarily the easiest. Sometimes if I've had a run of the same type of victory in recent games, I'll deliberately pursue a different one, even though the frequent condition is the most obvious and easiest.

But that's just me. For all of us, it's your game, you do what you want and have fun with it.
 
Sisiutil said:
Usually I would agree with this. Maybe I should explain my thinking a little behind my chosen victory condition.

1) The instructional nature of the ALC threads. Posters have been asking to see a cultural victory played out here for some time, probably so they could learn more about how to achieve this victory condition. This seemed like the best opportunity I've had so far to achieve a cultural win, so I went for it, for the sake of everyone learning from these threads (which includes me!).

I'm glad you've decided on trying DarkFrye99's approach. I have several cultural wins on noble without the slider and a couple on prince now with it. I am quite interested in seeing a cultural win on Prince with minimal use of the slider. Watching a cultural attempt with the strategy is very interesting (probably more in some ways than conquest or domination). Also, it is possible that you will still be fighting and since you are maintaining research and gold, you don't have to fight purely defensive battles if attacked. Should be fun!
 
Round 11: to 1945 AD

Time to put this one to bed, I decided.

I started off with some rush-buying, especially the wonder Coventry was busy with:



The late cultural wonders are a tough call. They're very expensive, especially compared to the "cathedrals" for each religion, which provide the same +50% culture magnifier at a much lower cost. Still, another +50% culture would help my third, lagging city, and the hit singles are valuable for trading.

I also, following everyone's advice, changed the slider to 0% culture. It wasn't making much difference, and I would need the gold shortly.

I also did some more work on the diplomatic side. I gifted Liberalism to Peter (and to Frederick, though he needed to be given a few of its pre-requisite techs as well). Shortly after that, I went back to see Peter:



It didn't really break of the Jewish lovefest on the other continent, though. Qin and Peter formed a defensive pact shortly after this. And Frederick refused to consider changing civics at all. Perhaps if I'd stuck with Buddhism a little longer and worked harder to convert them, I'd have been more successful. But with the size of my population, it's unlikely that any of the AI civs would win a diplomatic victory, so I really wasn't that concerned.

I got several more Great People. In spite of running so many artist specialists that I lost count of them, London refused to generate anything but Great Prophets:



I got two more GP from London, despite the odds running at around 75% in favour of a GA. I'm becoming convinced that the game has a bias towards GP points from wonders over those from specialists. Anyway, I used the GP for the Islamic and Christian shrines, for the extra gold per turn. Oh, and I got a Great Scientist from Hastings. I used him for an Academy in Dublin, which was actually my best science city at this point in the game.

You might have noticed that the sliders were down to 0% in that shot. That was because I was raising funds to buy cathedrals in my three cultural cities as well as another wonder:



This one also went in Coventry, since it needed the boost the most. I prioritized building the remaining cathedrals and temples in Coventry first, followed by Hastings, with London getting them all, but last, since it needed them the least.

Meanwhile, I finished building Scotland Yard, churned out four spies, and dispatched them to Chermussia to keep tabs on my friends across the water. They were behaving predictably:



You might notice that the price for sabotaging Qin's Apollo Program was rather cheap at this point. But I didn't do it. It wasn't so much to avoid the risk of a diplomatic demerit as it was to keep Qin on that path. In one game, Qin declared war on me and went all-out when it became obvious that he was going to lose the space race to me. Granted, the AI seems blissfully unaware when the human player is pursuing a cultural victory, but I didn't want to run the risk. Ditto with Freddy and Peter. Coventry is a coastal city; the last thing I needed was for it to come under attack. Even having its surrounding tiles pillaged would have been a real setback.

My power rating actually dipped below Qin's and Freddy's at one point, so I started changing more cities than just York to producing military units. I did very few upgrades, preferring to produce new units and periodically delete the oldest and most obsolete ones.

I also got Guinness busy churning out other Wonders. Qin beat me to the Pentagon, which was both disappointing and worrisome, but not surprising, since I'd been going after the cultural techs and wonders. Once I got Plastics, I started building the Three Gorges Dam--mainly to keep it out of the AI's hands. Since Guinness was growing close to 20 pop and needed to rush this wonder (my spies revealed Qin was building it as well), I moved in the Workers and started changing the tiles around Guinness from farms to watermills and workshops.



Since being educated about this counter-intuitive mid-game production in the Qin ALC game, I've tried to refine it a little. I've noticed that watermills are preferable to workshops; they produce fewer hammers, yes, but they provide more food. This allows you to work the inevitable mines without having to resort to any farms. It also allows you to run engineer specialists.

But I've notice that if you're not careful, you can end up with fewer than the maximum number of watermills the map should allow. If a tile has more than one border on a river, the game seems to randomly select which one will get the watermill. Since you can't place watermills opposite one another, you could end up with a watermill on one tile right opposite from another tile that only has the one side bordering a river.

The trick is to build watermills on the tiles with the fewest river borders (usually only one) first. This way you dictate where the watermills go. In the above screenshot, I built the first watermill on the tile 1 west of Guinness, which only has one river border. Then I built the one on the tile 1W/2N, which has two river borders, and the last watermill went on the 1W/1N tile which has three. If I'd built on the 1W/1N tile first, I could have ended up with the mill on its southern or northern borders, which would have ruled out a watermill on one of the other two tiles.

Anyway. I FINALLY got a Great Artist! Not from London, but from poor little Coventry.



I used him for a 4000-culture boost to coventry, which almost made it even with Hastings. All three cities were running as many Artist specialists as they could while still growing their populations. Coventry and Hastings were producing about 825 and 850 culture per turn, respectively, while London was producing around 900 and, of course, had a big head start thanks to its wonders.

Sure enough, in 1925, London achieved Legendary status:



I was using it to build missionaries and kept doing that, shipping them over to the other continent to enhance my income. I kept running the Artist specialists in London, where I'd build National Epic, hoping for another GA. This is also why I only converted one floodplain back to a cottage.

I was tantilizing close to winning now. To ensure I'd be left alone, I went to see Peter, who was the friendliest AI civ at this point:



One thing that cracked me up is that Qin also had a defensive pact with him, but gave me a -2 diplomacy demerit because I had "signed defensive pacts with his rivals"! Talk about not knowing who your friends are...

A few turns later, in 1941, Hastings achieved its goal:



Of course, I checked Coventry and did a little math to see how long it would take. Notice I still was not using the culture slider! I was still running Caste System, so the culture was coming from specialists then getting multiplied by buildings. I had to build a few colloseums and temples in some cities (including Madrid) because of the unhappiness created by other civs running the emancipation civic, but it was manageable.

In 1944, I could see that victory was at hand:



And sure enough, on the next turn...



YES!! Another win! It sometimes amazes me that I've won every ALC, since I still lose Prince games every now and then. But behold the power of the group mind!

And this was a very significant cultural win: almost no use of the culture slider, and only one Great Artist. The bulk of the culture came from specialists and was then multiplied by buildings and wonders. Of course, having six religions and spending a long time in Organized Religion to spread them definitely helped, as it allowed each of the three cities to build all six cathedrals as well as six temples (which, collectively, were equivalent to another artist specialist in cultural output).

On to the post mortem!
 
Post Mortem
So here's some screenshots from the end-of-game summary.

The score graph for the entire game:



Culture graph:



Power graph, last 50 turns. You can see where Qin and Fredo surged ahead of me in the 1880s. I overtook Fred quickly, but Qin took longer. Having Radio, which Qin did not, for Bombers certainly helped.



Demographics:



Top 5 cities:



Yes, I almost forgot--I also built the Space Elevator, just to keep it out of AI hands. I build the Internet too, just because I could. It's how I got Rocketry.

Statistics:



And my score:



Not too shabby. In fact, that score, in the ALC matches, is only exceeded by the end result of the Hatshepsut game!

Now, I did one more thing, a little experiment. Seeing I was about to get a Great Person in London, I decided to see if London would finally produce a Great Artist. So I played a couple more turns, just to find out. Guess what popped up in London on the next turn?



Can you believe that? I think I got four, perhaps five Great Prophets in London, despite running all Artists specialists and getting 70% odds of a GA or better each time. Something's not right there.

Anyway, I gotta say it was fun switching from warmongering to building culture like that. Very refreshing to not keep fighting. And achieving a cultural win through specialists and only one Great Artist, and getting started quite late, was very informative.

I look forward to your thoughts!
 
Sisiutil said:
Ultimately, though, this is a game and it's about having fun. When I get to the point in any Civ IV game where I have to choose a victory condition, I choose the one that offers the most fun--which is not necessarily the easiest. Sometimes if I've had a run of the same type of victory in recent games, I'll deliberately pursue a different one, even though the frequent condition is the most obvious and easiest.

Like i said, i think it's just time for you to start playing at a higher difficulty level. One of your points was challenge. You're not gonna get that at the level you currently play at, as can be clearly seen by the fact that you haven't lost an ALC yet, and (correct me if i'm wrong) haven't come close to losing one either. The fact that you have the luxury of choosing suboptimal moves further proves that fact.
 
Sisiutil said:
I got two more GP from London, despite the odds running at around 75% in favour of a GA. I'm becoming convinced that the game has a bias towards GP points from wonders over those from specialists.

If there is a bias, it isn't visible to me when I review the SDK. If the RNG were biased towards low numbers, then you would get too many prophets (and defenders would win too often). Shrug.

Zombie69 said:
You're not gonna get that at the level you currently play at, as can be clearly seen by the fact that you haven't lost an ALC yet, and (correct me if i'm wrong) haven't come close to losing one either. The fact that you have the luxury of choosing suboptimal moves further proves that fact.

That may be, but from my point of view, Sisutil appears to be improving. If he weren't getting better, it might make sense to push up to a higher level. But I don't see any immediate need for change while the improvements are still coming.
 
Goal point if your only goal is to improve. However, if we consider the following :

Sisiutil said:
2) The challenge. The easiest way to win isn't always the most fun. The game is fun if it's a challenge, if the end result is in doubt.

Then it stands to reason that jumping to a higher level would be the best thing to do. The alternative is staying at this level, and convincing yourself that there is a challenge, to keep it fun, which i think is what he's doing. At the start of the game, he may have himself convinced that there is a challenge, but in fact there isn't, not for him at this level.
 
Zombie69 said:
Then it stands to reason that jumping to a higher level would be the best thing to do. The alternative is staying at this level, and convincing yourself that there is a challenge, to keep it fun, which i think is what he's doing. At the start of the game, he may have himself convinced that there is a challenge, but in fact there isn't, not for him at this level.
One thing to keep in mind is that currently, Sisiutil isn't playing these ALC games alone. He's playing these ALC games with all of us, and has access to a lot of expertise. A group of people generally has more skills than a single person on their own. All of us giving advice and pointing out mistakes is probably worth a level. :)
 
well as for the post-mortem, never done a non-slider Culture win.

A few of the key aspects seem to be
Civicwise
U.S., Caste System... and I think Pacifism may have been better than Free Religion (+100% GPP in all three may have gotten an additional GA or two... which would make up for the lack of 5 cpt from non-state religions)

Sistine Chapel appears to be Very important for this path, as does Biology.


The other alternative is the reverse Situation
(Cottages in the Legendary Cities Merchants/Scientist Specialist everywhere else)
That would be better for Culture but worse for Science+Gold.. (and in that Case you would NOT want Pacifism, since you don't want Great Scientists/Merchants)


So the 'Fast Culture' win, which Financial Leaders have an advantage in, would be 100% on the Slider and Specialists to support the empire. [Caste System might not be necessary with 2 Merchants and 2 Scientists supportable from most cities... Emancipation might be better, and Free Religion would definitely be better]

The 'Balanced Culture' win, improved by Philosophical and with Sistine Chapel is the one you just did... and I think the Pacifism probably is the best there.. and definitely Caste System.

And finally the 'Extreme Culture Win' (similar to the Fast Culture but instead of running Scientists and Merchants you Run Artists to attempt to get Great Artists from most of the rest of your empire.) in this case its back to Pacifism and Caste System... In that one you let the empire's tech collapse.
 
DarkFyre99 said:
One thing to keep in mind is that currently, Sisiutil isn't playing these ALC games alone. He's playing these ALC games with all of us, and has access to a lot of expertise. A group of people generally has more skills than a single person on their own. All of us giving advice and pointing out mistakes is probably worth a level. :)

Yeah, but don't try to get anything done by committee.
 
Zombie69 said:
Then it stands to reason that jumping to a higher level would be the best thing to do. The alternative is staying at this level, and convincing yourself that there is a challenge, to keep it fun, which i think is what he's doing. At the start of the game, he may have himself convinced that there is a challenge, but in fact there isn't, not for him at this level.
I was going to write a long response to this, but I've hashed this out before ad nauseum in previous threads and I am, frankly, tired of doing it. So at the risk of sounding curt, no, I won't be changing levels, I have my reasons and they have everything to do with fun and learning and nothing to do with my own ego gratification. If you don't like the threads, you're under no obligation to read them or post in them, but thanks for doing so nonetheless.

This is a game, not a moon shot.
 
Another win. Different victory condition. Yes, you could move up to monarch and maybe you could consider it in your own games but that's not why you started the series. So carry on ALC at prince unless you decide to change your mind. You'll probably get to the point of winning earlier and racking up bigger scores but that's ok too.
 
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