Predictions in the Bible

Naval Power said:

I don't have a bible at hand to point it out, but the Bible mentions in detail that a revived Roman Empire will come and will be headed by the anti-christ. The European Union is already coming about out of the territory of the old Roman Empire.

This is one of the cool ones IMO . There are a lot more however.

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The Bible doesn't say that.

What it did predict, through the major prophets, was that a savior would die on the cross for Israel's sins who was 1) born in Bethlehem 2) from the line of David 3) born of a virgin 4) killed by the high priests 5) would rise again to be seated at the right hand of the Father

All of which happened four hundred years later.

I'd try to avoid attaching Biblical prophecies to modern events, though. It never works out quite right.

Exactly.

Before NP's prediction "fit" the European Union, it fit Hitler. And before that Napoleon.

By the way, the OT does NOT predict the crucifixion.

Masquerouge said:

Could you elaborate on that? Because it looks like in the bible Daniel predicted something, and a few pages later the bible describes that something, so Daniel's prediction came true! Now if Daniel predicted an event that is NOT related in the bible, that's different

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It's not so much whether it happened in the Bible, but rather whether it can be shown to have happened after the prediction was made. And quite frankly, even if it did, most people wouldn't believe it. For instance, Isaiah presents itself as having been written around ~720 BCE but refers to something that happened ~520 BCE (that a king named Cyrus would allow the Jews to return to the Promised Land). Now one would think that is as good as one could ask, and it probably is; but then in response most people just assume that that part of Isaiah was written later. And perhaps from a scientific/historical point of view it is the only logical thing to do; but that just shows that no one will be convinced by a prophecy in the Bible that was fulfilled, whether it was a real prophecy or not.

puglover said:

What it did predict, through the major prophets, was that a savior would die on the cross for Israel's sins who was 1) born in Bethlehem 2) from the line of David 3) born of a virgin 4) killed by the high priests 5) would rise again to be seated at the right hand of the Father

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Do you know where to find that in the bible? Like books and verses?

Eran of Arcadia said:

It's not so much whether it happened in the Bible, but rather whether it can be shown to have happened after the prediction was made.

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That was the point I failed to make, apparently

Eran of Arcadia said:

And quite frankly, even if it did, most people wouldn't believe it. For instance, Isaiah presents itself as having been written around ~720 BCE but refers to something that happened ~520 BCE (that a king named Cyrus would allow the Jews to return to the Promised Land). Now one would think that is as good as one could ask, and it probably is; but then in response most people just assume that that part of Isaiah was written later. And perhaps from a scientific/historical point of view it is the only logical thing to do; but that just shows that no one will be convinced by a prophecy in the Bible that was fulfilled, whether it was a real prophecy or not.

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That's because prophecies are usually cryptic sentences that can be interpreted to mean anything... They don't give dates but say things like "in the time of the great king of the West"...

Pontiuth Pilate said:

By the way, the OT does NOT predict the crucifixion.

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Not necessarily the crucifixion, but in the Psalms it says...

"for all like sheep have gone astray, and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all"

That he would be a sacrifice was foreseen.

Masquerouge said:

That's because prophecies are usually cryptic sentences that can be interpreted to mean anything... They don't give dates but say things like "in the time of the great king of the West"...

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But Isaiah names Cyrus by name. I will find the reference but I have read it before. This is the only time that someone's name is given before he is born; not even Jesus gets that. It may be the least vague prophecy in the entire New Testament. But is also illustrates the problem; if a specific prophecy can be shown to have actually happened, then most people will conclude that the prophecy came after the event. As far as I know, that is why most scholars date the Book of Daniel to around the 2nd Century BCE; because it seems to be describing the Greek occupation.

EDIT: Cyrus in Isaiah: Isaiah 44:28 and Isaiah 45:1.

That is a far cry from "die on the cross for Israel's sins."

EDIT: directed at Pug.

Erik Mesoy said:

Try this link: http://www.biblegateway.com/topical/topical_resource.php?source=1&tid=3974.

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I did. I selected "concerning Jesus", then "Design of his death", and the most interesting passage here is, I believe, Isaiah 53 1-12 (the other passages are way too cryptic IMHO).
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...53:1-12; Daniel 9:24,26; Zechariah 9:11;13:1;

Just to make sure, before I start giving my comments: Do Christians think that Isaiah is talking about the life of Jesus in that passage?

Couldn't he just as easily be speaking about John the Baptist?

Or... any other prophet who died in martyrdom... ever?

Eran of Arcadia said:

But Isaiah names Cyrus by name. I will find the reference but I have read it before. This is the only time that someone's name is given before he is born; not even Jesus gets that. it may be the least vague prophecy in the entire New Testament. But is also illustrates the problem; if a specific prophecy can be shown to have actually happened, then most people will conclude that the prophecy came after the event. As far as I know, that is why most scholars date the Book of Daniel to around the 2nd Century BCE; because it seems to be describing the Greek occupation.

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I believe that's the passage:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=44&verse=28&version=31&context=verse

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=45&verse=13&version=31&context=verse

Indeed, the logical position would be to assume the book was written AFTER the event...

Pontiuth Pilate said:

Couldn't he just as easily be speaking about John the Baptist?

Or... any other prophet who died in martyrdom... ever?

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Dude, if you give away my best arguments before I even start, that's not fair

Masquerouge said:

I did. I selected "concerning Jesus", then "Design of his death", and the most interesting passage here is, I believe, Isaiah 53 1-12 (the other passages are way too cryptic IMHO).
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...53:1-12; Daniel 9:24,26; Zechariah 9:11;13:1;

Just to make sure, before I start giving my comments: Do Christians think that Isaiah is talking about the life of Jesus in that passage?

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I don't know; I am not responsible for the link. I did not endorse it in any way. I gave it purely as a service because it has indexed several prophecies and appears to be a reputable site.

This whole thread is about a subject that I try to avoid discussing personally!

Erik Mesoy said:

I don't know; I am not responsible for the link. I did not endorse it in any way. I gave it purely as a service because it has indexed several prophecies and appears to be a reputable site.

This whole thread is about a subject that I try to avoid discussing personally!

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I was not referring to you specifically, but to Christians that could explain the passage from Isaiah and make sure we're talking about the same thing.I used that link because I found it rather convenient, not because YOU gave it

As a Christian, I believe that Isaiah was referring to Jesus, who in my view was the most important possible subject of prophecy; especially as Jesus, in the Gospels, said that a number of OT verses referred to him. But if I were to take an outside perspective, it is not at all self-evident that this is the case. My belief in Jesus as the Messiah affects my reading of OT prophecies.

Eran of Arcadia said:

As a Christian, I believe that Isaiah was referring to Jesus, who in my view was the most important possible subject of prophecy; especially as Jesus, in the Gospels, said that a number of OT verses referred to him. But if I were to take an outside perspective, it is not at all self-evident that this is the case. My belief in Jesus as the Messiah affects my reading of OT prophecies.

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That's fair and my non-belief in Jesus as the Messiah also affect my reading, and makes me find this passage pretty vague But to be honest, when I read it, I can see how you can link it to Jesus... but that's because I have a Christian background, so this passage rings many bells:
"But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed."

Masquerouge said:

Indeed, the logical position would be to assume the book was written AFTER the event...

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That is the logical position for anyone who doesn't believe in prophecy, yes. And in the absence of evidence to the contrary, it is the position anyone should take. But if one is capable of believing in real prophecy in the first place, it is certainly possible that that is what it is.

Masquerouge said:

Do you know where to find that in the bible? Like books and verses?

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Psalm 110:1 - The Lord says to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for my feet Jesus would have authority even higher than David

2 Samuel 7 - The Lord declares to you that the Lord himself will establish a house for you: When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you wwho will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. David's dynasty would last forever, for from his descendants would come the eternal ruler of all the earth

Isaiah 52:13-53:12 - He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering... Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows... But he was pierced for our transgressions, and crushed for our iniquities... though he had done no violence... and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering... therefore I will give him a portion among the great Jesus sacrificed himself as an offering for sin, and then was glorified

Isaiah 9 - For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne... from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. A Messiah would be born as a man in David's lineage and rule over a never-ending kingdom

Genesis 3 - So the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals... and I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel. A man would come to undo man's fall

Micah 5:2 - But you, Bethlehem, Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are of old from ancient times. The Lord of Israel will be born in Bethlehem

Pontiuth Pilate said:

That is a far cry from "die on the cross for Israel's sins."

EDIT: directed at Pug.

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See Isaiah 53 in my next post.