Masquerouge
Deity
Eran of Arcadia said:
Nice cross-post 
Did Jesus (the man) actually exist?
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Nice cross-post 
CurtSibling said:
I am sure from the viewpoint of faith. But for the purposes of this thread I have to use the historical viewpoint, and in history nothing is 100% certain - I accept other people's word for it that George Washington existed.
And your use of the word "cult" is interesting. If Christianity is a cult, pretty much every religion has to be by extension a cult, and then it has no real value as a pejorative (which is what I think your usage is here) because there is no way to distinguish a cult from any other religion. Sure, you may be using it in the old sense of "a system of beliefs", but that would be so out of character.
CurtSibling
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Eran of Arcadia said:
Faith is meaningless in the practical world.
It is just a way to shore up belief when you doubt it at the core.
In the end, you must accept that there are few solid crystal facts about your idol.
I know this must worry you.
On a subliminal level.
Eran of Arcadia said:
Since this trivia is not the point of the thread, I'll leave you to ponder over it.
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CurtSibling said:
That is not what I mean when I use the word faith. I mean anything that I have a reason to believe that isn't independently verifiable - like the idea that God has revealed His presence to me in some way. I feel quite strongly that He has, but not in a way that is meaningful to anyone else.
Why should I worry? The worst that can happen is that I am wrong.
CurtSibling
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Eran of Arcadia said:
Fine.
So, why did you choose to quote me in one of your posts?
You obviously sought to engage in debate, but you state that
these viewpoints do not matter to anyone other than yourself?
Am I to presume you are trying to convert or propagandise me?
Eran of Arcadia said:
True.
And you christians have the luxury of forgiving yourselves for any mistakes.
Then why even bother talking to me about it?
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Masquerouge
Deity
Every time I see Eran and Curt arguing over theology, I'm reminded of that scene in the Matrix:
"Neo and Morpheus are fighting!"
"Neo and Morpheus are fighting!"
CurtSibling said:
No, I am arguing that Jesus of Nazareth existed, based on evidence available to anyone. This is a matter that can be discussed by appealing to reason, and I disagree with you that the evidence leads to the conclusion that Jesus doesn't exist. For this I quote you, and say that I don't accept your reasoning, and so on.
I believe that Jesus is divine and the savior of mankind. This isn't a matter of debate; I mention it only as information. If I were attempting to convert you (which I wouldn't ever do over an internet forum anyways) I would describe to you how I reached that conclusion and ask you to follow the same path. That is quite a different thing. Unfortuantely, no one can be told what the Matrix is; you have to see it for yourself. (So that makes me Morpheus now?)
CurtSibling
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Eran of Arcadia said:
You believe in his existence. And I don't.
I am not going to accept your argument. And you reject my stance.
Where do we go from there then? Nothing much more to say, is there?
Eran of Arcadia said:
Why do you feel obliged to tell me your perspective on JC?
I know you are a christian. You make it clear. And I am aware of your ideology.
Do you think I regard you as someone who will deny the divinity of your idol?
You talk as if I am some person who is completely ignorant of this cult you belong to.
To fully reject religion you must understand it. And I understand it totally.
I have seen your religion, and I am not in the least impressed or interested.
PS
I never liked the Matrix movies.
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CurtSibling
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To make it clear, Eran.
Your personal beliefs have no interest to me, and has nothing to do with the topic.
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Your personal beliefs have no interest to me, and has nothing to do with the topic.
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In this thread, I am arguing that Jesus of Nazareth existed as a historical figure. That is the purpose of my posts. That is unrelated to my belief that he was divine, but I did mention that fact (that I believe it) because you seemed to think it was related to my argument that he was a historical figure. You brought up my beliefs, not me.
As far as Jesus' divinity goes, we are on opposite sides, and neither is likely to convince the other. But I am not trying. As far as his existence goes, well that is the point of this thread and I think that it is a debatable matter.
As far as Jesus' divinity goes, we are on opposite sides, and neither is likely to convince the other. But I am not trying. As far as his existence goes, well that is the point of this thread and I think that it is a debatable matter.
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Eran of Arcadia said:
It was more the reliability of historical sources I was having a go at.
Feel free to engage in some paranoia if you wish.
Eran of Arcadia said:
We are now entrenched in opposite sides.
I have no interest to change your mind, or reason to.
Your religion tells you to have a reason to to covert me, but you cannot.
Then, I guess our debate thus ends.
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It is usefull to note that in that period many people were regarded as deities, or of divide connection. A good example is Apollonius of Tyana ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_of_Apollonius_Tyana ).
Jesus, or someone of that sort, could well have existed as someone who was involved in mosaic law critisism, but what he actually was has to have been very hyped up by his followers, and that along with the typical jewish internal megalomania would have explained the rest of what became of his memory.
Jesus, or someone of that sort, could well have existed as someone who was involved in mosaic law critisism, but what he actually was has to have been very hyped up by his followers, and that along with the typical jewish internal megalomania would have explained the rest of what became of his memory.
Curt, I am not trying to convert you. For one thing, we only bother with those who we can tell are actually interested. For another, I am not required to try to convert everyone I meet. For yet another, an internet forum isn't the place for it.
As far as your criticism of the historical sources: I realize the failings of historical documents. I am no expert but I was a history major in college. The Gospels are not reliable as historical narratives, but they do reveal what people of a certain time period thought. Likewise for the Pauline epistles. Now you might not trust wikipedia, but I am willing to accept that the first of the Pauline epistles date from about 15 years after Jesus' death. That is enough time for lots of myths about divinity to be attached to him, but not for him to be made up entirely, especially when there was no need. Why not say that some other messianic claimant, who really existed, was the Messiah? There was no shortage of candidates, so why make someone up?
As far as your criticism of the historical sources: I realize the failings of historical documents. I am no expert but I was a history major in college. The Gospels are not reliable as historical narratives, but they do reveal what people of a certain time period thought. Likewise for the Pauline epistles. Now you might not trust wikipedia, but I am willing to accept that the first of the Pauline epistles date from about 15 years after Jesus' death. That is enough time for lots of myths about divinity to be attached to him, but not for him to be made up entirely, especially when there was no need. Why not say that some other messianic claimant, who really existed, was the Messiah? There was no shortage of candidates, so why make someone up?
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Eran of Arcadia said:
I love the 'we' in this quote. And the 'those who we can tell' part.
Do you have a clergy with you, taking notes?
Eran of Arcadia said:
The problem with using a real man is that people might know details about the real man.
His flaws, his bad points, his bad breath, his habits and addictions. It could damage the cult.
But!
Make up a perfect idol, and no-one can smear him. They took the best
elements of the preachers of the time and created a superhero in the BCs.
This is my personal take on it, just as relevant as your personal take.
Unless you are going to get arrogant and tell me your view is 'superior'
to mine, I see no point in continuing trench warfare for all eternity...
I have said my viewpoint, and accept your right to yours.
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CurtSibling
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storealex said:
I am one of them.
And for the record, no-one can know he was truly real either.
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When I say "we" I mean "Mormons in general", as I would be trying to convert anyone to Mormonism in particular (though again, not on CFC). But I submit to anyone else reading this thread: does it appear to you, based on my posts here, that I am trying to convert Curt?
CurtSibling
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Eran of Arcadia said:
You repeatedly self-reference your belief as if you are trying to hammer a message to me.
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CurtSibling
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storealex said:
Why does it matter to you, and why do you consider it your business?
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