Mump2 - AWDG Standard Pangaea

Raise AMsterdamn its to big to valuable for them.

Proposals so far:

• Raze Amsterdam. Agreed. In the IHT, pillage the tile then rest the army for a turn. Next turn attack Amsterdam.
• Pillage on the way down to Ottoman's land. Agreed again, but only because the army can do so without wasting movement. I would not make little detours to increase pillaging; just follow a shortest path that visits as many improved tiles as possible, but no more.
• Go for the Ottomans fast. This is my own proposal, based on my assessment of all known civs. They have all resources and Chivalry, so we have to act very, very fast if we are to hold on with our paper thin defenses. I see three phases:
  1. Find them. I think they are in between the Persians, Iroquois and Dutch. Next turn, the second army can follow the road SE, then try to find a path that's clear of units in a SE-E direction. Don't bother with the Persian settler pair. Don't bother with anything that delays the search.
  2. Pillage. Or GS armies can pillage 3 tiles per turn. Don't risk injuring the army by attacking units, because having to rest the army will cost us. Pillaging should continue until we have found all Otto resources IMO.
  3. Raze and capture. Raze about 6 Otto core cities with the two armies. When that is done, I'd start one army for the Dutch again.
• The next leader we get should become the FP in Cataractonium. I have proposed this a long time ago and have seen no objection to this, apart from Rat's suggestion to have a second army first, which we now do.
• Build towns like crazy. I think this is everyone's proposal. There are a lot of settler builds going on, try to keep them if possible. Let's settle my yellow dot first, and chop the fur forests. In the meanwhile, raze Mauch Chunk with all available units (I'd stretch a bit to do that quickly, it simplifies things a lot). Then move back south to defend the front against the Dutch. Take a purely defensive posture and build towns on my blue dots to shield our FP town. You'll notice I'm all for going east. I think that gives us a better tactical situation in general, and right now, new towns south of our core will be too corrupt to matter anyway. And we're going to have a long front for a long time, no matter how we proceed.
• Pick your battles, ping units to retreat them and keep kill ratio up. In the corrupt lands, I'd rather have a tile pillaged than a unit lost. The other way around for our core.
• Next army should be used defensively against the Dutch, with the occasional help in center. A new proposal of mine. If we can hold that front until we have dealt with the Otto's, I think there's no way left to loose this game. Defenses are really extremely thin right now, and a lot of spears are pouring in, so we really need the extra defensive punch. When that's in place, move more cats to the west to balance.

Summary: use existing armies to take on Ottos first, then the Dutch; consolidate home front and expand east while doing conservative defense.

Mumpulus said:

because having to rest the army will cost us.

Click to expand...

lurker's comment:

Also, if it receives sufficient damage during combat, it will be attacked.

Miss the old FP from PTW, it would be huge in Cataractonium.

A minor thing: we are currently (nearly) wasting a chop at Agendincum.

Raze Amsterdam. Agreed. In the IHT, pillage the tile then rest the army for a turn. Next turn attack Amsterdam.

Click to expand...

Of course.

Pillage on the way down to Ottoman's land. Agreed again, but only because the army can do so without wasting movement. I would not make little detours to increase pillaging; just follow a shortest path that visits as many improved tiles as possible, but no more.

Click to expand...

If it would only cost us one turn, I wouldn't mind detouring just a little to take out an entire lux or resource (if they have multiple sources of it, then it won't achieve anything, but if it's their last one...).

Go for the Ottomans fast. This is my own proposal, based on my assessment of all known civs. They have all resources and Chivalry, so we have to act very, very fast if we are to hold on with our paper thin defenses. I see three phases:
Find them. I think they are in between the Persians, Iroquois and Dutch. Next turn, the second army can follow the road SE, then try to find a path that's clear of units in a SE-E direction. Don't bother with the Persian settler pair. Don't bother with anything that delays the search.
Pillage. Or GS armies can pillage 3 tiles per turn. Don't risk injuring the army by attacking units, because having to rest the army will cost us. Pillaging should continue until we have found all Otto resources IMO.
Raze and capture. Raze about 6 Otto core cities with the two armies. When that is done, I'd start one army for the Dutch again.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a plan. Though I wouldn't mind killing a settler pair or two if they're not out of the way, two free workers...

The next leader we get should become the FP in Cataractonium. I have proposed this a long time ago and have seen no objection to this, apart from Rat's suggestion to have a second army first, which we now do.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it's pretty corrupted and has good land around it, makes sense. I would want a third army instead, but we don't have the GS for it, so lets' build FP.

Build towns like crazy. I think this is everyone's proposal. There are a lot of settler builds going on, try to keep them if possible. Let's settle my yellow dot first, and chop the fur forests. In the meanwhile, raze Mauch Chunk with all available units (I'd stretch a bit to do that quickly, it simplifies things a lot). Then move back south to defend the front against the Dutch. Take a purely defensive posture and build towns on my blue dots to shield our FP town.

Click to expand...

Right on, if you stop expanding, you will die. We are losing money to unit support, so even a town founded in the desert is worth something, just keep building settlers and taking land.

Pick your battles, ping units to retreat them and keep kill ratio up. In the corrupt lands, I'd rather have a tile pillaged than a unit lost. The other way around for our core.

Click to expand...

This was my plan going into my turnset, but we were stretched so thin I had to take some risks, and I got unlucky sometimes (which is inevitable when you fight 50 battles).

Next army should be used defensively against the Dutch, with the occasional help in center. A new proposal of mine. If we can hold that front until we have dealt with the Otto's, I think there's no way left to loose this game. Defenses are really extremely thin right now, and a lot of spears are pouring in, so we really need the extra defensive punch. When that's in place, move more cats to the west to balance.

Click to expand...

I don't think so. I doubt we'll be hearing from the Dutch if we raze their captial and pillage some tiles on the way to the Ottomans. How about offensivelly? It could pillage and plunder and raze towns, which will slow down their forces anyway (or be used somewhere else if it's needed).

Though I wouldn't mind killing a settler pair or two if they're not out of the way, two free workers...

Click to expand...

Two problems with that though: (1) possible loss of HP for the army; (2) very hard to get the workers home (we don't want to delay pillaging for that)

I don't think so. I doubt we'll be hearing from the Dutch if we raze their captial and pillage some tiles on the way to the Ottomans. How about offensivelly? It could pillage and plunder and raze towns, which will slow down their forces anyway (or be used somewhere else if it's needed).

Click to expand...

As soon as we can miss the extra army, we should obviously go right ahead and send it out. But the Dutch have a lot of towns right now, and will keep sending units towards us the next 10 turns or so, no matter what we do to their lands. I think in the long run it's more beneficial to us to let an army help out on defense so we can get established faster without struggling so much. This situation should only last for about 10 to 20 more turns, after that I'm confident we'll be well organised at home. Right now, it's just barely hanging together.

Edit: I agree with the rest of Own's comments, I just feel a bit more strongly for the FP

There is lot for nerovats to digest I fear. I'm confident he'll be able to distill the general strategy out of all the discussion.

Some very practical suggestions were made. I'll edit this post if any more are offered by the team or lurkers :

- Mumpulus list
- Mizar's catch

Got up to spead. Agree on strat. Only I would like a 3rd army before the FP, but can decide on that if I happen to get another leader. Will take time to MM before I start to play. Will move south from Amsterdam and expect to find some Ottomans cities there. Will probably play tonight unless I think I need to discus more.

pre-turn
MM all cities put large ones on settlers, monarchy in 4
IBT
Lot's of Otto's show up including MI
130BC
Burdigala walls->rax
let Amsterdam army heal
kill hittie warrior 1-0
lose 1 GS kill 2 spears 3-1
IBT
more Otto's
110BC
almost lose elite GS against archer but retreats, 3 are now near Eboracum
kill 2 spears in Amsterdam and raze it 5-1, gain 4 slave but no way to get them out of there.
kill Hittitie archer now see stack of 6 3man chariots comming from south
science down to 80%
use GS to cover workers
IBT
GS kills 2 3man chariots before losing 7-2
kill archer next to Eboracum 8-2
Otto's head for Ratae
Persia heads for Cataractonium
Dutch start on Great lib
90BC
Camulodunum settler->GS
Agedincum cat->cat
kill 1 3man chriot lose 1 vet GS against reg 3man 9-3
kill archer near Eboracum 2 left 10-3
Have to change Richborough and Entremont to GS
Kill 1 more archer near Eboracum 11-3
IBT
Dutch stack comes from Mauch Chuck, they kill GS after losing 1 archer 12-4 (had not expected them, they seem to send units there by ship).
spear in Cataracton defend against archer, then horse which retreats then loses to hore 13-5
70BC
Monarchy in science to HBR for now
Cataracton riots because of loss of MP
This is not going well. Ratae is hardly savable There are 2 3man+archer, 3MI+1Sp, 2 archers next to it, then another 2Mi+2Sp and the single units. Might be best to retreat as our units are faster. Just taking out the 3man's.

I don't think we have any other choice but to change the remaining settler builds to GS's as well. The Persian semmed to be going for Cataracton, but now seem to go for Burdigala as well. There are several cat's there. I was planning on creating some room from there but the shear numer of units makes that impossible. I should have used the army near Antioch to take some of them out, but hadn't expected the 3man's, whithout we wouldn't have had a problem. Not sure what to do now so let's discus. Could continue tomorrow. Hope I'll have more luck then.



View attachment Mump2_70BC_Own.SAV

I will check the save, expect a post later tonight.
No problem on waiting in a critical situation for team input.

Also checking... Will post in a bit.

• Abandon Ratae
• Lapurdum is expendable if it can get you a really advantagious tactical situation (won't be easy though, I don't see how at this point, but just in case you have to take a decision there)
• Stagnate growth in Richborough for a while to speed up GS builds
• Stagnate growth in Agendicum for a while to get to three shields (borrow forest from Lapurdum, which gets nothing from it anyway)
• After the two spears near Burdigala are pinged, send bulk of cats west.
• Send Augustodurum GS south this turn, replace with new GS out of Entremont next turn
• I see no attack near Lugdunum-Augustodurum, so maybe shift some forces south for just a few turns... Gergovia MP can go to Entremont, Entremont MP towards Richborough to free up GS MP there. May as well turn up lux this turn to use Richborough GS right now. The situation justifies it.
• Build roads on our western flank. I had this in the second list initially, but I have seen some puzzling worker actions in the last 2.5 turnsets, so... Roads, roads, roads.

Some gratuitous items that are probably obvious

• Attack the Otto MDIs and pray for good RNG on the Hittite counter
• Forget the FP, army first with next leader
• Pray for a leader
• Do not despair, you've been dealt with the pleasurable task of dealing with the initial Hittite rush; things will slow down
• Otto borders SW of Antioch
• We have no time for infra right now, so take cheapest choice for research for a while
• Start moving the Dutch army this turn (healthy enough to move)

Good luck nerovats!

Agree with most of Mumpulus suggestions (Ratae is not defensable, no walls, not cats and a single spear), additional:

The Gallic in Richb. could even be rushed, we will need every offensive unit we can get in the next few turns.
Overall, go full military mode short-term, we need Gallics, cats and spears to cover the expensive gallics.
Some cats are not at the frontline, we need them badly.
Units like MDIs must not be allowed to attack or we will suffer heavy losses, they must be hit with cats or attacked by offensive units.
3mans are secondary targets as Mumpulus stated, our fortified spears behind walls have good chances against them.

Agree on disbanding Ratae, and change all settlers to GS's
kill spear near Burdigala 14-5
Change Catara to walls
IBT
Persians are heading for our iron
50BC
Entremont, Lugdunum GS->GS
Lapurdum worker->worker
kill spearnear Burdigala 15-5
kill spear and MI 17-5
keep forces away from counter attack
armies keeppillaging disband the amsterdam slaves
Only Lapurdum now under threath about 50-50
Ottoman border are now showing south of Persia
IBT
Hittities attack Lapurdum we hold 19-5
Dutch archer lands next to Gerovia
Iro's start on Great lib
30BC
Catara walls->settler
lose GS against AC, next one finishes it 20-6
kill archer near Alesia 21-6
there are still 4 MI's but they can't attack yet
Put GS and cat on the iron
IBT
kill 2 units near Lapurdum lose 1 GS 23-7
Persians start on Sun Tzu
10BC
Alesia GS->GS
Gerovia cat->cat
Found some ivory
kill some horses near Burdigala 25-7
Kill 2 3man near Lapurdum 27-7
have to take use GS from iron to kill archer heading for empty Camulodum, but it loses 27-8
kill 1 MI 28-8, there are still 3 left but can't attack
IBT
lose spear and GS in Alesia only kill 1 MI 28-10
kill archer near Lapurdum and get elite
Dutch archer lands north of Entremont
Dutch seem to head for furs
10 AD
HBR in Col in 4
Alesia, Verulamium and Camulodum GS->GS
Eboracum rax->GS
kill dutch archer 29-10
kill 3man 30-10
Kill archers which was heading for furs 31-10
kill lose archer 32-10
Try to kill vet archer with elite GS and it retreats Getting tired of bad luck.
IBT
lose GS against 3man 32-11
Perians start on Great lib
Otto stack retreats
Persian horse moves on our wines
30AD
for some reason GS in Richborough isn't healing move it somewhere else, maybe because of FP?
kill the horse 33-11
capure Ottomans worker and disband it
pillage 3 ivory tiles, seen in iron will head there
Kill 2 more horses and archer, lose GS against spear 36-12
Poprush rax in Richborough as it will need happiness otherwise, will irrigate FP's for fast growth back
IBT
kill horse near Catara 37-12
Lose the GS on wine to reg horse 37-13
Dutch land another archer north of Entremont
50AD

Stop here. This turn still needs to be played.
Problem is we can hold but have not enough units to counter strike. Have some cats to bombard but can't finish the job. AI will just retreat and come back.
Both armies are now in/near Ottoman territory, all ivory have been pillaged 1 iron is visable hope it's their only one.
Took spear from Gerovia to get Entremont to 10spt, but watch the archer.


View attachment Mump2_50AD.SAV

I'm gonna play Own8 first, then I have an RL activity, I'll comment in about 8 hours from now. General feeling after a quick check of the save: my optimism has waned just a bit. Looks like we could collapse any turn. The Otto's no longer have ivory, let's get the iron too (we can see a source now). And build roads in the west? Hope we can hold on...

Roster
Mumpulus
Own
nerovats - Just played
Mizar - Up
ThERat - On deck
cubsfan6506

I'm out of town today without Civ, only mobile Internet so there is plenty of time for discussion, will get to it tomorrow. My feeling is we need another consolidation turn until we have pillaged enough to slow down the stream of incoming units.

I've taken a quick look, and not much more to say. Agree with Mizar on the need to consolidate.

I'd up lux to remove the need for MPs (and get some citizens working again), and with very careful tactical play try to get the upper hand again.

Keep the armies pillaging until the influx of resource-based units declines, than we can re-evaluate what to do next.

Good luck Mizar

I have played the first turns, needed a break, currently going on. Our defense is paper thin, we are on a turning point.
The preturn took me 2 hours to form plans and shuffle our spare units, one or two lost battles on the wrong spot and it is game over.
Will post later today.

upload isn't working so I will try in 1,2 hours.

Mizar said:

upload isn't working so I will try in 1,2 hours.

Click to expand...

Post report.