SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters
- Thread starter AlanH
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LowtherCastle
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I don't know if the AIs have stones. Don't know if any CRC players have stones either. I know I got 'em.I'm ready to ask AlanH about one thing. Do AIes got stone from the start? If do, then all teams are victims. (wow! it looks like a poem!)
How about if we mine the second crab tile?
Keep your hands out of my food!
Erkon: I don't know if the Library can't come before Alpha anymore. Would someone be so kind as to set up a test map with the sheep? I won't be available this weekend, though.
Regarding the roster: There may well be a strategic element in the decision to assign a certain turnset to a certain person. However, this might lead to indesirable situations (for example, who would allow LC to play any turns at all, if given the opportunity to prevent it?
).I am glad to allow the captain to propose any roster he likes, and I will always approve his proposal. Once the roster is defined, though, I'd prefer to stick to it and allow everyone to play their complete turnset. IMO the fun element and the learning element are better off this way, even if the final result can suffer a bit.
LowtherCastle
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I resemble that.However, this might lead to indesirable situations (for example, who would allow LC to play any turns at all, if given the opportunity to prevent it?
Here is klarius' save slightly modified.
I resemble that.
Here is klarius' save slightly modified.
I take after my father.
Thank you for the save!
It's no problem to get library before alpha. And you don't need sheep for that (they arent even useful).
BTW the fact influencing library the most is not production (we can have 11 hammers easily at size 4 which can go up to 12 while building), but the time we get writing.
I am still thinking about work clams or work deer while building Library.
In general, I don't think that an "library asap + 2 scientist asap" approach will delay alphabet. But we should try it out.
LowtherCastle
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I'm not surehow you guys are getting Alpha on T44 with wb1-wkr, but doing that with war-wkr(1t) and pasturing the horses (which we may not have, of course) before camping the furs, I get library on T41 at the latest, start working 2 scientists immediately and get Alpha on T45.
You were the one that claimed lately T44 is possible
.I know, I achieved it at least once, but with knowing a lot civs.
There maybe a civ knowing bonus associated with AH and even writing then.
With spread sheets, not using anything but the prerequisite bonus, I cannot get better than T45.
And I need either horses or a lux trade for that.
LowtherCastle
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RIght. I see that now. That was when I got ivory from Cyrus. Speaking of which, I hate this. Drives me crazy, but in the save below, I cannot for the life of me figure out why I have no trade routes with anyone. I have no idea why they suddenly became available in the other game and in this one, I can't even get them with manipulations with WB. 
LowtherCastle
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A Puzzle
Here's my save for T44 Alpha, T42 LIbrary.
The challenge I submit to you: Acquire these techs, in any order (by hook or crook)
EDIT: So much for the deer...using the same save but mining the stone before camping the deer, I finished the library on T41, which led to Alpha on T43. Getting an early happy makes a big difference. But the random factor bites. Hatty already had writing and I couldn't get Sailing, but still got BW. Tricky getting Hatty up to Pleased, though, and it seems that if I trade Alpha to more than 1 AI then I can get her to pleased, but she wants more than the compromised Alpha for DoW.
Here's my save for T44 Alpha, T42 LIbrary.
The challenge I submit to you: Acquire these techs, in any order (by hook or crook)
Sailing
BW
The Wheel
Mysticism
Masonry
by the end of T44. It's doable but I failed on my first try. BW
The Wheel
Mysticism
Masonry
EDIT: So much for the deer...using the same save but mining the stone before camping the deer, I finished the library on T41, which led to Alpha on T43. Getting an early happy makes a big difference. But the random factor bites. Hatty already had writing and I couldn't get Sailing, but still got BW. Tricky getting Hatty up to Pleased, though, and it seems that if I trade Alpha to more than 1 AI then I can get her to pleased, but she wants more than the compromised Alpha for DoW.
Comparative trial on that map. I didn't work the horses at any time to be able to compare better to other maps.
A. Warrior-Worker-WB-WB-Library
Writing T30
Library T44
Alphabet T47
All resources improved, Stone mined, 1 turn left on Marble Mine
B. Worker-WB-WB-Warrior-Library
Writing T29
Library T44
Alphabet T46
All resources improved, Stone and marble mined
C. Warrior-Worker(1t)-WB-Worker-WB-Library
Writing T29
Library T41
Alpabet T45
Fur, deer camped, sheep pastured, stone mined. Could have pastured horse instead of sheep
I could have speeded up Alphabet by one turn in all three variations. But that would have required working a coastal tile instead of the stone mine and the library wouldn't have been finished by Alpha.
C definitely comes out as the best.
Did you trade for a happy resource? Did you work the horse pasture?
Gnejs - please prepare a PPP for alternative C with early library. Then we can use that PPP as baseline and compare to. At what turns are the techs completed?
LowtherCastle
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Both. I've tried it with and without the horses.
EDIT: I had to trade horses to get the ivory, but I figured it was worth it.
Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW, first 1520 turns
Civic change: None
Religion change: If it spreads this early, sure!
Updates for 20 turn turnset in RED.
Research towards early Alpha along Fishing-Hunting-AH-Writing-Alpha track.
BUILD QUEUEWarrior-Worker(1t)-Work Boat-Worker
UNIT MOVESStarting Warrior is sent exploring. I will try to go as far south as possible in the hopes of meeting many AIs. This is to get the research discount for each AI that knows a tech we are researching. 2nd warrior explores along our borders, then heads home for garrison duty.
WORKER ACTIONSWorker won't be available until after my turnset...
CITY MMWork Grassland forest (2f1h) until warrior produced and borders expand on T5.
Switch to Deer (2f2h) on T5 putting 6h into worker.
Switch to Workboat on T6 while still working the deer.
Grow to pop 2 on T12. Work Deer+fur.
Work boat completed on T13, continue on worker using Deer+crab(unimproved).
Crab netted T14.
Worker completed T20.
DIPLOMATIC ACTIONSSwitch to Deer (2f2h) on T5 putting 6h into worker.
Switch to Workboat on T6 while still working the deer.
Grow to pop 2 on T12. Work Deer+fur.
Work boat completed on T13, continue on worker using Deer+crab(unimproved).
Crab netted T14.
Worker completed T20.
Your head would look good on the end of a pole... NOT!
RESEARCHFishing (T6)-Hunting(T12)-Animal Husbandry(T20)
OTHERSCivic change: None
Religion change: If it spreads this early, sure!
Updates for 20 turn turnset in RED.
A Puzzle
Here's my save for T44 Alpha, T42 LIbrary.
The challenge I submit to you: Acquire these techs, in any order (by hook or crook)Sailingby the end of T44. It's doable but I failed on my first try.
BW
The Wheel
Mysticism
Masonry
...
I accidently traded for Archery instead of Sailing, so I failed
Well, I made it on the first try. Including archery.A Puzzle
Here's my save for T44 Alpha, T42 LIbrary.
The challenge I submit to you: Acquire these techs, in any order (by hook or crook)Sailingby the end of T44. It's doable but I failed on my first try.
BW
The Wheel
Mysticism
Masonry
Note: Mansa doesn't know Alex. So after trading with Mansa for BW, I still get archery and TW from Alex.
Washington gives sailing, Freddy masonry and Monty myst.
Another note:
Only such cheap trades will work so you can swap equal beaker cost techs. The monopoly bonus is a little bit less than the deity penalty. Just all trade costs are truncated to multiples of 10g. By that the values get equal and trade can be made.
I think that's an artefact of world buildering. If I sink some land in the west we are connected as we should due to sailing.RIght. I see that now. That was when I got ivory from Cyrus. Speaking of which, I hate this. Drives me crazy, but in the save below, I cannot for the life of me figure out why I have no trade routes with anyone. I have no idea why they suddenly became available in the other game and in this one, I can't even get them with manipulations with WB.
But the early trade connection we see on my map is by no way guaranteed on another map. That is connection via owned coastal tiles before sailing. That's only because there's typically an AI city in the west where the owned coastal tiles connect.
I still think the better breakpoint would be AH-worker, where one might want to re-plan.
But anyway looks good - go ahead.
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