SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

FiveAces turnset report
t95-t104

t95 (500bc)
move h-miss 4SE scout sparta berlin. spart 1swd, 5arch, 2axe, 1 phx, 1 cat+3arch nearby. Berlin 3swd, 3axe, 1sp, 2arch, 2 axe 1W. Berlin units heavily promoted.
Liz - 40g friendly. trade paper for MC+20g
bulb GS, edu in 5
10g-> JC = pleased
units move as per PPP.

IBT: Zoraster born in Delhi. Izzy DOW's us. Stopping as per PPP. Asoka does not have machinery. Wash is not WFYABTA.

t96 (475bc)

h-miss scouts antium: 1 axe, 3 cats and 2 archers
trade cs to wash for cal, arch, mono and his map
trade cs+philo+30g to liz for compass+machinery
copper+2gpt to JC for gold+cows
crabs to Wash for 2gpt
units move per ppp
forge done, chop/rush harbor
cuzco has 3 praets, axe, 2 spear

IBT: Asoka has mach. Liz has Optics! JC has feud (not for trade); KK suicides his units SW hamburg, barely making a dent in the sword. moron.

t97 450bc
spread hindu to berlin and tinanuku. tiw only has swd, sp, arch. main stack has left Berlin but not sure where it is now strange
harbor done. HE in 1 turn
kk settler/2arch NNE of Hamburg can't raze though - abandoning and moving cat/axes to sparta. will come under fire from Alex this turn but should stay off the plank
kk to hindu, peace fred, 70g for machinery
DOW Alex
30g to JC for please
JC DOW Alex + 140g for philo

IBT: axes hold alex archer attacks, no new techs

t98 425bc
HE done
KK DOW Alex +map for philo
2 cats and 2 (wounded) axes unite, should be healed by reach sparta

IBT: liz has feud

t99 400bc
cat done
stack moving towards sparta

IBT: nothing

t100 375bc
research education, switch to liberalism in 11 turns
cat done

IBT: Asoka gets optics, drops to pleased, goes WFYABTA, DoP's with Fred; KK has feud

t101 350bc
cat done, moving now to athens in anticipation of sparta fall

IBT: JC asks to stop trading with Wash, we decline, still pleased. Alex has feud KK takes sparta!!!

t102 325bc
murk to size 10
uni done
h-miss scouts antium 2lb, 3 cat, axe

IBT: fred has feud, same value for edu

t103 300bc
lib in 5, karakorum is hindu, athens has 6 lb and phlanx, S stack moves into sparta to heal us and KK's units

IBT: walked plank. lost axe and cat N sparta.

t104: cat promotes to accuracy 2N sparta (cross fingers...) same value edu

IBT: lost the cat. damn. izzy completes chicken itza, education now feud +30g or optics+hbr+20g jesusin should prob trade for it now.

t105:
sparta cats go with kk's stack towards athens
northern ones move down, but I realize now I should have left those for jesusin. sorry. if I get another turnset i'll only play 9 turns.

Gnejs said:

Erkon the stupid. No need to worry, we all saw it.

FiveAces, would you please keep track of Alex's and JC's tech progress each turn?

Click to expand...

Err how do I do that? You mean as new techs come up on the trade screen?

I haven't pressed enter, and I haven't asked JC to convert to hindu either. There is wisdom in klarius's point about the loose Alex units pillaging kk. I'm on the fence. I guess if I had to pick I'd say no to JC->Alex once missionaries are through. But that's a weak no. I can easily be convinced otherwise.

Gnejs said:

Erkon the stupid. No need to worry, we all saw it.

Click to expand...

I thought it started with a 'w'--something like Erkon the Wuss.

Gnejs said:

So what is Alex total unit count then?

4 archers at Hamburg
1 archer on silk
8 archers in Athens
1 phalanx in Athens
1 sword in Sparta
5 archers in Sparta
2 axes in Sparta
1 phalanx in Sparta
1 cat in sparta
(probably some unit on the iron)

I guess most of the stack in Sparta is Alex attack force. They will probably leave for Tiwanaku or Berlin as soon as KK dows.

Lets hope LC is right and KK makes it to Sparta before Alex gets Longbows.

Click to expand...

there's an archer on the iron and 2 more running around W of sparta's rice

Are we talking about bribing JC on Alex now or after the misses get through?

FiveAces said:

Err how do I do that? You mean as new techs come up on the trade screen?

Click to expand...

Yes, just check the foreign advisor each turn. No news is also news...

FiveAces said:

I haven't pressed enter, and I haven't asked JC to convert to hindu either. There is wisdom in klarius's point about the loose Alex units pillaging kk. I'm on the fence. I guess if I had to pick I'd say no to JC->Alex once missionaries are through. But that's a weak no. I can easily be convinced otherwise.

Click to expand...

I am also a bit divided. There is a big short-term gain from bringing in JC. But there is always the risk that he captures a city or two from Alex.

FiveAces said:

Err how do I do that? You mean as new techs come up on the trade screen?

I haven't pressed enter, and I haven't asked JC to convert to hindu either. There is wisdom in klarius's point about the loose Alex units pillaging kk. I'm on the fence. I guess if I had to pick I'd say no to JC->Alex once missionaries are through. But that's a weak no. I can easily be convinced otherwise.

Click to expand...

Try to observe all tech changes, not just with Alex and JC.

Let's get our misses settled, then we can decide about JC, if needed. I'm not sure we want to give JC more free techs right now.

Izzy DOW'd us IBT t95-96. There are no units in our territory. I cannot see any of her units anywhere. She has OB's with Fred JC Asoka Alex and KK.

My thought is to put JC on Izzy next turn if the first h-miss is successful, and 2 turns if it's not or maybe wait until we can DOW Alex and put him on both of them.

And otherwise to ignore Izzy until we spot a unit somewhere. I'll take a dinner break while you guys ponder this.

THis is big news. Good news. What are the prices of sending different AIs against Izzy?

FiveAces said:

...IBT: Zoraster born in Delhi. Izzy DOW's us. Stopping as per PPP.

Click to expand...

Rock'n roll! Kill'em!! Kill'em all!!!





This reminds me of the previous SGOTM where we planned 97 turns ahead, and then after one turn we re-planned everything

There is no use to use one missionary before 2 are through.
My plan was to have the first a look on Antium also just for curiosity .
T97:
Two are available in Berlin and Tiwanaku - convert the cities. If that works, move the 3rd miss as far south as possible with still 1/2 move left.
DoW Alex (miss teleports eastwards - move away from Greek border into KK territory).
Set JC on Alex (and Izzy now that it is so cheap).
T98: Set KK on Alex (and Izzy - in the hope he just gets lucky with JC taking out the defenses).

If T97 doesn't work for 2 misses, don't Dow Alex.
T98 the 3rd miss can try his luck and now come all bribes in the same turn.
Obviously we have to call off KK from Fred T98, before we can have him DoW anybody.

Or:

1.- Tell KK to attack Hamburg.
2.- Pass the opportunity to dow Alex
3.- After Fred is at peace (eternal peace?) bring KK on Izzy.
4.- After Madrid is taken, set JC on Alex, dow JC, bring KK on JC.

First miss can still look on Antium. Will do that. Am not sure we want to split kk's attention from Alex though. If we have him DOW izzy will he prioritize Alex and send the berlin units there or will he divert some to madrid?

JC will DOW Izzy + all his gold (140) for either CS, MC, or philo

jesusin said:

Or:

1.- Tell KK to attack Hamburg.
2.- Pass the opportunity to dow Alex
3.- After Fred is at peace (eternal peace?) bring KK on Izzy.
4.- After Madrid is taken, set JC on Alex, dow JC, bring KK on JC.

Click to expand...

This is interesting. In addition we can bring Liz in on Alex with an optics+DOW for edu trade. That means Alex should be dead before the PA and removes that obstacle.

However I have moved the N cat off the path to hamburg so it wil now get there 1t later than before . still shouldn't make a huge difference. KK seems strong enough to make this work. Downside is we would need to be careful about the timing of conversions. Right now KK is +5 pleased with JC with +1 for favorite civics. That's ok, but if it goes too high he'll go friendly so we might need to remove the religious bonus by having them in different religions.

In both your and klarius plan we're doing same thing until t97 (I think), so should I play until then?

FiveAces said:

In both your and klarius plan we're doing same thing until t97 (I think), so should I play until then?

Click to expand...

Is the Cat going to the same place in both plans?

Other than that, I am ok with playing to t97, as long as no conversion is done.

jesusin said:

Or:
1.- Tell KK to attack Hamburg.

Click to expand...

And do you think he will do it?
Even if he moves his units there, he can DoP any turn before attacking. That's just RNG.
If you want to be sure that a war lasts some time you need a new one.

Edit:
And I don't want to tell KK to go anywhere before T97 when we give him machinery (I hope this is available now ?).
No use to suicide spears and swords which could be upgraded to mace first.

jesusin said:

Or:

1.- Tell KK to attack Hamburg.
2.- Pass the opportunity to dow Alex
3.- After Fred is at peace (eternal peace?) bring KK on Izzy.
4.- After Madrid is taken, set JC on Alex, dow JC, bring KK on JC.

Click to expand...

Are you out of your mind??!!!

We have spent 300 something posts debating Alex or JC, and now you bring up Isa instead???



Except for that, I like it...

klarius said:

And do you think he will do it?
Even if he moves his units there, he can DoP any turn before attacking. That's just RNG.
If you want to be sure that a war lasts some time you need a new one.

Click to expand...

Does it matter?

FiveAces said:

My thought is to put JC on Izzy next turn if the first h-miss is successful, and 2 turns if it's not or maybe wait until we can DOW Alex and put him on both of them.

And otherwise to ignore Izzy until we spot a unit somewhere. I'll take a dinner break while you guys ponder this.

Click to expand...

I'd rather not put JC on Izzy until right before we are about to declare on JC. The risk of him capturing Madrid is too high. Besides, what would be the gain?

FiveAces, what happened to KK's units in Hamburg SW and what does he have there now?