DMOC's Immortal Game #2 - Boudica

futurehermit said:

I wonder if Boudica's lack of economic bonuses would be a strike against playing peacefully until the renaissance? In contrast, if you are able to engage in steady warfare during the earlier time periods you will be able to eventually have an incredibly strong army of aggressive/charismatic units.

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Yeah, but the thing that contradicts it is the map gave me some room to expand and nice floodplains which take time to use to their full potential.

@ TMIT: Man, I wish I could see your spoiler... but I won't.

DMOC said:

1. I researched mining before AH because if I went AH and worker first, the worker would have been idle for a few turns after pasturing the pigs and waiting for the mining tech to be complete (I think--my calculations might be a bit off).

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actually you wouldn't have idled the worker at all and
a. if you had it would have been worth it anyway to work the big tile a lot sooner.
b. you were only at risk of losing one worker turn as you could camp the ivory

DMOC said:

2. I will be aiming for that horse city next round ASAP (well after I let my capital grow a bit).

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Seems a little dangerous to wait and the risk/ reward is not worth it.
With gold and only one food, it just takes you too long to grow to work another FP cottage (and a mess of worker turns as well).

DMOC said:

4. IW...I don't know...we have archers and water is surrounding my land in the west and part of the north and south so there doesn't seem to be a need for metal this quick. My neighbors also aren't the most aggressive type.

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you don't need it immediately but you have choices as to where to settle next. The AI will know where it is by now and you may lose it. You're not really sure how the game will play out and you could find yourself without any metal at all (which could be OK since you have ivory--or not)
As for your neighbors--I think Darius is not too aggressive but Mao is a possible backstabber and he's the closer one.
Again I rarely research it myself but here you have:
1. gold+countless FP
2. no bronze
3. a choice of settling locations with no choke

At this point, however, you might be better off with your alpha-trade plan.

DMOC said:

Thank you for your advice!

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can't guarantee I'm right on these points but just my .02

This is definitely a very difficult map, and more so because the skill level is Immortal...

But what catches my eye on this map is the good number of Dye and Silk tiles, along with the surrounding grasslands, to the southeast.

If you are to overcome Boudica's lack of economic bonuses, these would be one way of doing so.

Artichoker said:

This is definitely a very difficult map, and more so because the skill level is Immortal...

But what catches my eye on this map is the good number of Dye and Silk tiles, along with the surrounding grasslands, to the southeast.

If you are to overcome Boudica's lack of economic bonuses, these would be one way of doing so.

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Agreed. Though it may not be priority #1, you don't want to let Mao get the spot (nor the barb city).

Mao will definitely get the silk. He already has one city (Shanghai) near there and a border pop will mean he is 1 tile away from obtaining the silk. I'm not a fan of cultural battles, so settlign the silk might not be viable at this point. I do want to aim for the dyes, though, if possible. The dyes city could act as another cottage city so maybe I could use one of my floodplains cities for a GP farm.

Will play next round today, should post it sometime later.

Round 3: 1850 BC to 1025 BC (34 Turns)


Basically, this round was some more expanding and cottaging. No wars, though. But interesting things did happen.

I began by adjusting my capital to build another archer. I needed another fogbuster near my horse-city site so barbarians wouldn't ruin my day.



After the archer was complete, I grew the city to size 5 by building something for 1 turn then going worker > settler. I really needed another worker as my two other, smaller cities, had to grow.

In terms of research at this point, I spent 3 turns at 100% wealth to accumulate some gold, then went on with Alphabet normally.

The following screenshot shows just one example of why archers were so necessary.



The archer won his battle and has achieved enough XP for his next promotion (I haven't promoted him yet, though).

Along the way, my scout in China met Sitting Bull (Philosophical/Protective). Yeah, yeah, three protective leaders this game.... The only good news is that he and Mao are worst enemies! Now Mao shouldn't be targeting me if he goes into WHEOOHN mode. If he does, I'm screwed anyway as his power is miles beyond mine.

I also received an announcement that the Oracle was built by Pacal II so now he's ahead even further (he's #1 in GNP obviously).

Here's a view of the empire in 1350 BC just to give a little update. To be honest, not much happened between 1850 BC and 1350 BC.



Vienne and Tolsoa (or something like that) both had to make 1 worker for me this round because the capital was slow-growing as a result of working the gold. My future plan is to have Vienne produce my first GS for an academy in the capital while Bibracte continues with military/workers/settlers.

Here's a view of Mao's land.



It's not that great, but it is very foresty.

More bad news: Mao captured the southern barb city.



That is his seventh city.

Oh look, another barb city appears (barbs must love this map).



Thankfully, though, I can still build my future horse-city which will be 1 NE of the horse.

And it's another barb city...



Both cities have 4 archers in them. I'm thinking that once I have horses connected, I should send a couple of chariots to each city to see if I can capture/raze them after failed attacks by the AI. Agreed?

An interesting turn in this round was in 1075 BC when Mao converted to Judaism, Pacal II got the Buddhist shrine, and Darius I completed the Pyramids. Darius is looking more and more like my first military target. Mao's conversion also made him and Pacal cautious with each other.

Meanwhile, Alphabet was done.



Unfortunately, even though I was first to Writing, Pacal researched Alphabet on the same turn as me, and Darius and Saladin were so close to finishing it that none of them were willing to offer techs like Masonry for Aplhabet. Perhaps going for Aesthetics would have been better.

The only thing that I could get out of Alphabet was in this trade with Sitting Bull. Mao, by the way, hasn't even researched Writing yet.



I suffered no diplomatic demerits with Mao and I have iron north of the capital!



After Alphabet, I chose to research Masonry as it was on the way to Construction which I would need sometime.



I played another turn so that I could get my horse-city founded.



Hopefully it will gain 150 culture before anyone captures the barb city so it will automatically flip/raze. EDIT: Never mind, the city won't flip if I get 150 culture--I'll have to either attack it or get my city to 750 culture.

And at this point, I ended the round.

[To be continued in next post]

[Continued from previous post]

Game Information

Current capital. I am planning on growing to size 6, doing another round of worker/settler, then completing the library again.



Vienne, which will complete its library soon (should I do it by whip?) and generate my first GS.



GNP (I am third out of seven).



Power (I'm last of course).



Maps of north and south. They are in spoilers because I made them bigger than the other images. The map of the north has no resource indicators so you can easily see my cities' populations.



Things to remember or are important

1. I will have horses in 6 turns exactly
2. I will have iron in approximately 10 turns (give or take several turns)
3. No one is in "We have enough on our hands now" mode
4. There is one more AI left, and hopefully it will NOT be a protective AI
5. Most AI's have 5-7 cities, but Darius I has TWO cities. Yes, only 2 cities. ???
6. The dyes are unclaimed by Mao, and I plan on having my capital produce another settler to claim the dyes site
7. A barbarian city is making my northern production city invalid

My questions to you

-Where should the city near the dyes be located? I'm thinking of putting it on the river and having it coastal, which means it will be 5 tiles south of Vienne.
-What should my tech path be? My take is Masonry > Currency > Code of Laws Should Mathematics or Aesthetics come between/after those? I am a huge fan of chopping so perhaps Math before Currency? Math also reduces the time for currency IIRC, and no one has Aesthetics so I could possibly use it for trade value.




AND THE SAVE:

Does anyone hate Darius?
If no, open borders with him and send a unit scouting, so you'll have an idea about his military. Or even better, send a Spy along. I'd also focus espionage points on him.

Taking Pyramids should be the top priority right now. I wonder, if a quick attack to capitol using Spy-caused revolt would be possible?

Agree about the tech path.

Yeekim, at the moment, no AI is lower than Cautious with Darius and 1 or 2 are at pleased with him (I believe Sitting Bull?).

Yes, I will want to scout Darius' defenses. When my scout no longer needs to fogbust (he's at the dyes) I will move him to Darius' cities. The good news is that according to the power graph and demographics, I'm seventh in power and Darius is sixth. I'll probably adjust my espionage points so that I can incite one city revolt but I'll probably just use catapults mostly.

Oh, by the way, I'm thinking that since I'm such a big fan of chopping (I usually chop like crazy especially on high levels), maybe Mathematics should come after/before currency? And should Aesthetics be another target for trade value?

Any more advice?

DMOC said:

Any more advice?

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1) In about 2 turns you will no longer have to worry about where to found the dye city because Mao is going to get it (you can see his settler on the first turn of the save). On the plus side he puts it in the place you wanted so you won't have to raze it.

2) Switch research to maths. You should be able to trade for masonry and sailing on the way to construction or currency, depending on how long you want to put off the war.

3) Get some swords together ASAP and raze the northern barb city to make room for your prod city. You will need them for Cyrus anyway.

4) Found a city 2E of the fish (GP farm), then a city on top of the iron (prod).

Just my thoughts, feel free to play it like you see it. Good luck!

Round 4: 1025 BC to 65 BC (51 Turns)

Well, let's move on.

JBossch mentioned that Mao would take the dyes city from me, and unfortunately, that was right.



Don't worry, we'll take care of Mao someday.

I whipped a library in Vienne so it could produce some Great Scientists.



Along the way, Mao asked me to cancel deals with Sitting Bull. I oblige, as Mao is close to me and I have no idea where Sitting Bull is. Plus, half the civs here are annoyed with SB.

I finished Masonry, and then went for Mathematics, which would take a little under 20 turns due to my improved economy.



Sitting Bull is the only AI who had Mathematics at that time, and he was still the only AI to have it when I finished the tech (SB would later go and research Metal Casting afterwards).

I ran 2 scientists in Vienne to earn my first Great Scientist in 25 turns.



I finally got horses and started to crank out a chariot for barb defense. I later got iron and produced mostly Gallic Warriors for my military.

My scout exploring Mao's territory met the last AI - Gilgamesh (Creative/Protective). Okay, this made me REALLY mad. This is the foruth protective leader in this map, and Gilgamesh happens to be the BEST "protective" AI because he has the creative trait which pretty much automatically makes an AI a great land grabber and thus, more powerful (though Hatshepsut might be an exception to this rule). It turns out Gilgamesh is the founder of Hinduism, and far, far away from me.

Darius built his third city on top of a hill, with a sword guarding it.



I decided to convert to Judaism, as my neighbors were Jewish.



Mao and Saladin became pleased, and soon I begged Polytheism from Mao and he gave it to me.

My chariot got some action.



Barbarians this round were actually a boon. I managed to get this one chariot to 9 XP so it can become Combat 3, and barbarians also reduced Darius' power graph by 20-ish percent even though Darius built the great wall! Here's why:



Darius decided he wanted that barb city on a hill in a desert in a crappy location. And it was guarded by 5 archers. Um, okay...I positioned my troops to prepare to take the city after his attack. Lo and behold, Darius lost every single one of those troops during his failed attack. Nice going. I couldn't take the city since all the archers got promoted as a result. This is yet another reason why barbs were so helpful.



Before that failed barb attack, I got Mathematics on the same turn Pacal built the Temple of Artemis.



I then researched Construction for catapults.

Pacal demanded Mathematics, and I gave it to him. His power is double mine.



I finally got my first Great Scientist who went to Bibracte for an academy. That shot up my beaker count from 44 to 50 if I recall correctly.



Construction was completed, and I researched Currency to increse my GNP. Here was the tech situation at the time. Pacal has founded Confucianism so he has Code of Laws.



A few turns later, Pacal founds Christianity.

I finally garnered enough swords (Gallic Warriors) to raze the nearest barb city. It was defended by two archers.



The reason it was defended by two archers was that I sent a warrior on one of the hills near the city and two archers came out of the city trying to chase the warrior, meaning that only two archers were left, and my Gallic Warriors entered the city outflanking those two archers chasing my warriors. AND the warrior also ran to the safety of 2 gallic warriors which easily disposed of them, giving them both 4 or 5 XP total. This is why the barbs were so helpful this round. You can see those two stupid barb archers on the very bottom of the last screenshot.

Here's the blow-by-blow.

My first Gallic Warrior attacked with 98.3% odds. If you're wondering how he got to CRII already, and you guessed barbarians, you're right!



My second Gallic warrior attacked at 86.7% odds, and the city was razed. That was easy, and it left room for me to found city #5 (Camulodunum), a destined production city.



I then finished Currency and ended the round at that point. Oh yeah, Mao completed the Great Lighthouse, like that matters.

[To be continued in next post]

[Continued from previous post]


I will be inserting all images in the second part of the round by putting them in the spoiler to counteract somewhat image-heavy pages.

Defenses in Persepolis:



Current tech choices:



Technology situation (better than it seems since I have Construction and Currency on pretty much everyone except Sitting Bull and Darius):



GNP (3rd):



Power (neck-to-neck with Darius):



Map of north followed by south without resource indicators:

Additional Information​

• Darius has 4 cities.
• Most AI's have around 8-9, with Gilgamesh having the most.
• Pacal is hogging most of the wonders and will continue to do so as he is first to Aesthetics and is researching Literature.
• Sitting Bull is the worst enemy of Mao and Saladin.
• I have no AI's that are annoyed or furious with me, and Darius, Mao, and Saladin are all pleased. Therefire, the diplomatic situation is favorable.
• I have 46 more turns to go for my second Great Scientist who will bulb Philosophy.

So here's my plan:

Get some catapults and gallic warriors to invade Persia next round, razing Susa but keeping Persepolis of course (it's got 2 wonders!). Then I'll probably take peace or keep going depending on the situation.

My capital is building a settler to found the souther fish city, which will be a long term GP farm (I will farm those jungle tiles). After that, though, the capital will build catapults/gallic warriors.

In terms of technology, I'll probably go Priesthood > Code of Laws > Civil Service, probably grabbing Sailing and Meditation somewhere.

Overall, this game is sure shaping out to be fun! I've got a strong cottage system back in my three core cities which have high populations due to the charismatic trait, and I have a small army here:



Hopefully we can see some action next round.

The save:

@ TheMeInTeam:

I checked out your game, and here's my thoughts:

1. Maybe you overextended yourself militarily? You've got plenty of cities from Mao and it would probably be best to take peace and get a tech out of the war while you rebuild during peace.

2. Quick settling is key on high levels. Darius I is very strong in your game (unlike mine) because he had all this free land up in the north.

3. Try and get a Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy. No one has founded it yet, which is amazing.

4. I know you have the Pyramids, but cottaging on the floodplains is probably best. You also have lots of unimproved land in formerly Chinese territory, so you need more workers.

Good luck!


On a completely unrelated note, I've finally finished my FIRST immortal game here when I played as Darius. Feel free to check out the game by clicking on my signature.

Heh, good luck with Darius wasting his army on barbs
Agree about further steps and Code of Laws being next priority.

However, is it necessary to self-research Priesthood? I'd shop around a bit to see, what trades you can get.

After the war you'll probably want to focus on civil builds (courthouses) and at this time Organized Religion would be handy. So trading for bunch of cheap tech against Currency with sb may be an option and you might just get Priesthood on top of others this way.
On the other hand, trading cheap techs builds against WFYABTA...

Another stray idea would be to try bribing Mao to attack SB. Let them build up mutual hatred and drain themselves...

I am planning on researching Priesthood since it lets me build temples for even more happiness (as you can see my three home cities have high populations already) is a prerequisite of Monarchy and Monarchy is a bit more expensive so trading to acquire it may well be worth the WFYABTA. Also, does Priesthood reduce time for Code of Laws? I know it is an optional prerequisite, but does it reduce CoL time?

Monotheism will need to be put in my tech plan sometime for OR. Or maybe I'll just skip straight from Paganism to Pacifism.

Yes, I will hopefully be focusing on courthouses after the war with Darius.

I did attempt to try and bribe Mao to attack SB. Mao's diplomatic screen shows that he is actually willing to declare war on EVERYONE. However, he won't do it for Alphabet and Mathematics combined.

AFAIK Priesthood does reduce CoL research time. All prereqs should count, even optional ones.
But playing Pacifist Boudicca is ... well... just counter-intuitive. Especially since you seem to be running CE.

After CoL I would go for Feudalism rather then CS, and use Pyramids for Police State rather than Rep.

That is, switch into relentless warmongering mode, apart from whipping courthouses. Of course, with these Protective civs right and left, that is going to be tough... But then again, waiting is not going to make this easier.

Good luck.

I will check the research time for CoL before Priesthood and after Priesthood, and hopefully no other AI will know CoL which would reduce the cost and make math difficult.

Actually the reason I want to go to Pacifism is to generate lots of Great Scientists in one city (probably Vienne). I don't know if I would want to go to Feudalism, though. I'm a fan of researching CS soon.

I will probably play the next round today. Hopefully someone else posts so the next round will be on the 4th page (less images per page).

DMOC said:

Actually the reason I want to go to Pacifism is to generate lots of Great Scientists in one city (probably Vienne).

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Well, that is obvious However, you need to carefully balance the opportunity cost: lightbulbs vs increased army maintenance (imho if you plan to continue any sort of warmongering after destroying Persia, you will bankrupt yourself with Pacifism) and giving up OR. Also, value of bulbed techs is smaller in this particular game, since you probably will have very few trading partners, hence not much brokering...

DMOC said:

I don't know if I would want to go to Feudalism, though. I'm a fan of researching CS soon.

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I'd like to hear a 3rd opinion on that one... Vassalage and option to vassalize an enemy sooner would be helpful as well. Bibracte would become a powerhouse with CS, but then again free units from Vassalage would maybe offset the commerce bonus...
And each free Exp point is more valuable with Chm...

Yeekim said:

Well, that is obvious However, you need to carefully balance the opportunity cost: lightbulbs vs increased army maintenance (imho if you plan to continue any sort of warmongering after destroying Persia, you will bankrupt yourself with Pacifism) and giving up OR. Also, value of bulbed techs is smaller in this particular game, since you probably will have very few trading partners, hence not much brokering...



I'd like to hear a 3rd opinion on that one... Vassalage and option to vassalize an enemy sooner would be helpful as well. Bibracte would become a powerhouse with CS, but then again free units from Vassalage would maybe offset the commerce bonus...
And each free Exp point is more valuable with Chm...

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Don't worry, I don't plan on doing anymore warmongering after Persia until the Renaissance or so where my economy is booming.

Well, I do like the vassal situation, but the problem comes with diplomatic demerits. You automatically get +1 and some AI's who look "plesaed" with me may actually be "cautious" if they are annoyed with my vassal. The extra experience is good, though, especially with Charismatic. Hm...

I've played the next round. Things are looking good -- Mao and I are teaming up and smacking Darius around.