The case of pasteurized milk - or "do governments know better?"

Well, see, that depends. Sure you can do what you want to yourself, but does drinking unpasteurized milk harm others? If it makes other people sick, then we have to weigh those specific costs and benefits. That's not something the average layperson can do.

In my opinion, drinking unpasteurized milk is stupid. It's far safer to drink pasteurized milk.
 
Unpasturized milk is VERY harmful to others as it provides a place for deadly virus' (both to cows and humans) to breed and spread

How so? Isnt the bacteria in the cows and their milk anyway? We just kill it before drinking, and that may or may not be wise in the long run. When we over protect ourselves from germs dont we become more vulnerable over time? The people most able to fend off disease have had centuries of ancestors slowly building up resistance.
 
Sounds like some people haven't done their research. People who advocate drinking raw milk aren't nutjobs or idiots. There are real benefits. The risks are known and manageable.

What it comes down to is that drinking milk from a healthy cow is perfectly safe. Only when an infected cow gets in the system is there a hazard. That's why country folk are comfortable with drinking raw milk: they know the cows personally and know they aren't sick.

Yes, for city folk at the end of a long supply chain, pasteurization makes sense. As that is the way the vast majority of milk is sold, raw milk will never be more than a niche product. There is no harm to the average consumer in having a way for people who want it to have raw milk.

And considering the state of modern medicine, the consequences of drinking contaminated raw milk aren't anything like as serious as they used to be. Ask yourself this: how many people have died from the recent salmonella outbreak? NONE that I have heard of.

But don't let facts get in the way of your preconceived notions. EVERYBODY PANIC!
 
wow, I've never even heard that raw milk might be banned in some places, sounds pretty crazy to me :)
 
Yes, that was my view of the issue also. This "let's protect them from themselves" happens a lot. It's ok to protect people from things they cannot control, but withdrawing the ability to choose (it it can't be sold...), when the possible harm is only to themselves? Milk was only an example.

Unfortunately, that might be unrealistic from a governance perspective. You can't run a society when a lot of people are addicted to harmful substances, for example. If enough people want to do something that is not so outrightly bad (such as smoking, drinking and drinking raw milk) and it's too difficult to remove interests that promote these things, then they would get to do it, but it would likely still be taxed. Not only would that discourage people, it would also provide good revenue ;)

I think there's a lot of debate about Mill's harm principle regarding individual rights. I forget if Mill himself thinks scuicide should be allowed, but modern legal thinking generally rejects such a notion. The problem is that things that harm yourself have the capacity to harm people around you as well. I think that applies to most things, such as smoking, drinking heavily and drinking raw milk. Heck, it can be simply that by doing these things you might require more medical treatment and that costs the community. We haven't talked about social problems generated, risk of infecting others, passive smoking, etc.

Of course, there must be a balance between personal freedoms and the good of the community. I think this can only be derived by looking at things on a case-by-case basis. There is just no one conviction good enough to warrant universal application.
 
Why not just treat this like other food products such as eggs. Some may find the taste of raw eggs likable, and they do accept the apparent risks from salmonella. It is all the more likely that the banning of pasteurized milk is just for the ease of the dairy producers then for any real health concerns.
 
it aint yers to run

Whatever, mate. I know you can't come up with anything worth listening to when it comes to the topic of governance.
 
indeed... it's perfectly normal to drink fresh milk, isnt it? :crazyeye:
apparently not :ack:

which makes me wonder how it is with cheese produced from raw milk...like most swiss cheeses...is that banned too? :crazyeye:
 
just how much power should legislators have to decide what's best for us (our heath)?
in terms of public safety - I am all for regulation - people do not know nor care what harm they cause to others.

Unpasturized milk is VERY harmful to others as it provides a place for deadly virus' (both to cows and humans) to breed and spread

no virus - but deadly bacteria ;)

They're deemed too stupid to choose not to smoke marijuana (despite the fact that it won't kill you unless you're a complete idiot), they're deemed to stupid to choose not to do various other drugs.

Personally, I think, let them get sick if they want, it isn't causing harm to anyone else.
apart from driving under the influence - there is no harm to others - with regards to communicable diseases though I see this differently.



wow, I've never even heard that raw milk might be banned in some places, sounds pretty crazy to me :)

indeed... it's perfectly normal to drink fresh milk, isnt it? :crazyeye:

actually raw milk was banned for quite some time in Europe as well (and the EU all but tries to reimpose that ban. Most cheese producing countries have however opted for strict testing regimens - which basically made sure that raw milk got much more expensive - but can still be used if free of disease causing germs.
The article fails to give the actually root of the ban/restrictions on the sale of raw milk. They all are/where part of the effort to irradicate Tuberculosis after world war II - Mycobacterium Bovis is one of the tuberculosis causing germs and is present in cattle - lots of herds in the 1940s had some infected idividuals and most raw milk contained M.bovis. This was the reservoir for tens of thousands of tuberculosis infections and thousands of deaths a year.
Europe has mostly opted for strict testing regiments - in the US where any centralized testing regime would hardly be accepted I believe bans are the better way to go (though I miss good cheese here ;)).

good read on this issue - though extremely long and mostly concerned with animal health

Notwithstanding the attention it had received and a variety of speciic Government Orders, little obvious progress was made in reducing the incidence of the disease in cattle, or its damaging effects on human health, until the mid-1930s – at which time it was estimated that 40% of all domestic cattle were infected (Proud, 2006). The report of the Gowland Hopkins Committee in 1934 (Economic Advisory Council, 1934) is credited with ultimately being the catalyst for things to change. It recognised explicitly that milk, not meat, was the prime source for human infection, and initiated actions that led progressively to effective control and virtual eradication of bovine tuberculosis in the following 25 years. This period saw the widespread establishment of milk pasteurisation and enhanced meat inspection procedures at slaughterhouses – practices which remain today as the principal defences against human infection, and have resulted in the disease no longer in practice representing a threat to human health. (The Health Protection Agency report 39 cases of human M. bovis infection in the UK in 2005 (HPA, 2006) – and some of these originated with other humans (Evans et al., 2007) – compared with over 2,500 deaths per year attributed to bovine TB in the 1930s).

in the end - the main cause of this regulation has mostly been controlled - but its not gone - so I personally like those regulations...
 
I forget if Mill himself thinks scuicide should be allowed, but modern legal thinking generally rejects such a notion.

How do you figure that?

If I remember correctly, almost nobody actually punishes attempted or succesful suicides anymore, I.e via property seizure or forfeiture. Except for places like North Korea, where it counts as 'treason'. :rolleyes:
 
How do you figure that?

If I remember correctly, almost nobody actually punishes attempted or succesful suicides anymore, I.e via property seizure or forfeiture. Except for places like North Korea, where it counts as 'treason'. :rolleyes:

No, I didn't say you'd be punished for trying to. You are not simply allowed to. There's a difference.
 
actually raw milk was banned for quite some time in Europe as well (and the EU all but tries to reimpose that ban. Most cheese producing countries have however opted for strict testing regimens - which basically made sure that raw milk got much more expensive - but can still be used if free of disease causing germs.
I don't think it was ever banned in Switzerland, at least not during my lifetime...maybe before?

but does that ban in the US apply to cheese made from raw milk as well (after all most swiss cheese like emmentaler, gruyere and tilsiter are made from raw milk originally)

I really don't see the point in an outright ban...after all other stuff can be hazardous too if it's handled accordingly (like raw eggs) noone suggest in banning these.
 
The ban was enacted for quality control purposes a very long time ago when raw milk WASN'T a niche production. Since Public Health falls under the purview of the government, makes sense why the government got involved (externalities of a sick populace?)

However, today, with information freely available on the web, with a more diverse society, raw milk could easily fill a niche product role at a Wegman's or Whole Foods. So the regulation may be a little out-dated.

But Inna, I thought you LIKED governments controlling stuff? Me confused.
 
The ban was enacted for quality control purposes a very long time ago when raw milk WASN'T a niche production. Since Public Health falls under the purview of the government, makes sense why the government got involved (externalities of a sick populace?)
[...]
But Inna, I thought you LIKED governments controlling stuff? Me confused.

I see a need for state intervention where a counter-power is required to limit abuses of power or dangerous actions by individuals or organized groups. But I'm well aware that with these interventions comes the risk of making things worse.

Raw milk can be dangerous, so I can understand why its sale is not allowed in "industrial quantities" by supermarkets, as the current pasteurized milk is sold. The current dairy industry is such that its product would cause too much harm. But the solution to the dangers of raw milk has done no more than cement a system that, frankly doesn't seem that good. The dairy industry is effectively protected from competition by different production methods -the government ended up enforcing an industry monopoly, by which I mean the monopoly of a single production system: from the "industrial farm" to pasteurization in medium and large-side units, to supermarkets.

The initial intention was to protect consumers. The final product was to force the organization of production and distribution of a commodity in one and only one way.

And milk is just one example, much of this applies to other foodstuffs. We can't say there are no alternatives, because there are: with milk, if the problem starts with the cow's health (thanks for the kink, ori), why not consider addressing the problem there?

And I've watched the "unforeseen" consequences of "well-intended" regulation in other areas too: carbon-trading and carbon-quotas, in my country, and many others, have been distributed in a way that effectively protects existing companies from competition (they got theirs free, potential competition would have to pay). Yet "carbon trading" was hailed as a "free market approach to the global warming problem".

I guess my point is actually that most regulations will favor certain interests against others, and often it's not clear why this happens, and how those interests participate in creating them. The larger the government, the harder it becomes for the "public" or indeed any "small interests" to accompany and weight in on this process. (that's one of my gripes with the EU, by the way...)

And once regulations are in place they are not questioned, because there's years of social conditioning teaching the public that those regulations were created for their own good. Conditions change, as you said above, but once industries get organized around certain regulations, there will be resistance to change, or even allow the subject to be discussed. Is it not true that we, consumers, have very little power to actually bring about any change to existing regulations?
No I don't have any solution to propose, apart from encouraging people to be aware this problem exits, and question whether any regulation or law is justified. I do believe smaller governments (local governments) cause less of these problems. But large governments were made necessary because of greater economic integration, the larger scale of markets and world trade. (larger companies <-> larger governments)
I fear we're individually giving up too much power (to increasingly larger state-like entities) for the sake of efficiency or security, without considering all the consequences of this. Cheaper food, at the cost of quality, makes a nice example.
 
I'm with Dubai Vol here.
Outright ban seems a bit disproportionate measure. Or at least outdated.

On a side note, in Estonia (and I believe in Finland) dairy products such as yoghurts etc which are intentionally enriched with some useful bacteria (i.e bifidobacterium) are fairly common products. I am not sure, however, whether the milk is pasteurized before the useful bacteria strains are added of not.

There are other probiotic products too, and these are selling prettu good as well.

I do not drink milk myself, but yoghurt and kefir (kephir?) are good.
 
I don't think it was ever banned in Switzerland, at least not during my lifetime...maybe before?

but does that ban in the US apply to cheese made from raw milk as well (after all most swiss cheese like emmentaler, gruyere and tilsiter are made from raw milk originally)

I really don't see the point in an outright ban...after all other stuff can be hazardous too if it's handled accordingly (like raw eggs) noone suggest in banning these.

Switzerland is special in many ways :mischief:
I know that Germany (all but) banned everything (actually some cheese production was always allowed - but sale of raw milk to consumers was not) for a while way back when testing was not really available but pasteurization was - and have seen regulations in Austria making it almost impossible - even now the testing regime both in austria and germany is inhibitively expensive - so that single farmers cannot usually sell raw milk and make profit - and anyone not testing their rawmilk is banned from selling it to consumers...
Selling rawmilk thus becomes quite unfeasible, since a) you need to ensure testing (which mostly only big farmers or collectives can do) and b) you have to stamp it as perishing within 96 hours after it leaves the cow - so that those big companies usually don't have an incentive to sell it to consumers - most of it today is used to make raw milk cheese - which allows for much longer times within you can do your testing and is commercially more viable...
 
The initial intention was to protect consumers. The final product was to force the organization of production and distribution of a commodity in one and only one way.

I guess my point is actually that most regulations will favor certain interests against others, and often it's not clear why this happens, and how those interests participate in creating them. The larger the government, the harder it becomes for the "public" or indeed any "small interests" to accompany and weight in on this process. (that's one of my gripes with the EU, by the way...)

And once regulations are in place they are not questioned, because there's years of social conditioning teaching the public that those regulations were created for their own good. Conditions change, as you said above, but once industries get organized around certain regulations, there will be resistance to change, or even allow the subject to be discussed. Is it not true that we, consumers, have very little power to actually bring about any change to existing regulations?

Most industry regulations are, suprise, brought about by the industry's lobbyists, therefore it should be no surprise that many regulations (not all) serve the interests of the industry more than its consumers. That's a bummer for free(r) markets worldwide...
 
How dare the government ban something that's extremely harmful! Everyone should be able to kill themselves, and large agribusinesses should be able to kill thousands of people every year because milk that's more inviting to bacteria than Narz's foreskin should be free to sell!
 
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