DMOC's DEITY Game #1 - Gandhi

Round 8: 490 AD to 1090 AD (51 Turns) - You Have Discovered Steel! - Part 2


If you were paying close attention to the BUG mod features, you'll know that in 3 turns I got another Great Scientist. (Thankfully I didn't get a Great Artist!) I would save him until later.



I had 12 turns for my next Great Person so I fired all the scientists in Delhi to run merchants instead. I wanted to get a Great Merchant so that I could have gold to upgrade trebuchets to cannons (and, as it would turn out, muskets to rifles later).

I soon met Zara, and he's even more advanced than Shaka!



The funny thing is, Zara is friendly with Shaka despite the war that occurred! It must have something to do with Zara giving +8 for religion and +5 for civics (all three civs on the other continent were running Theocracy and the same religion, which didn't help me at all because Saladin's favorite civic is also Theocracy!).

At the same time, in another land, Cyrus completes the Taj Mahal. Oh boy, even more reason to go after Ramesses II now. But on better news, I beat him (and all my continent-mates) to Gunpowder. Researching Gunpowder unlocked the Chemistry technology for bulbing, which I did so with that Great Scientist I obtained in the beginning of part 2 of this round. This left 6 turns of "normal" research for Chemistry.



I am REALLY happy that my neighbor was a weak and backwards Ramesses II. The other AI's are incredibly powerful and advanced. Shaka was actually the first to research both Military Tradition and Military Science! For comparison, Zara took up to 1500-1600 AD to finish Military Science.

All right, Chemistry is in, go for Steel in ... 34 turns!



On a more positive note, I got the Great Merchant I coveted! I tried many different keyboard tricks (to find out how much gold I would get on a trade mission without wasting time sending my merchant there) but I couldn't figure out how much gold I would get from each city. Someone told me a trick that I could use, but it only works for cities in my line-of-sight. Oh well, maybe I'll find out this Great Merchant trick later.

To keep my research rate at 100%, I made another trade with Ramesses II. WFYABTA isn't really a problem when you're in the bottom half of the scoreboard (that's the way the code works). Some of you guys won't like that I'm giving Gunpowder to my future target, but I really wanted the gold. Oh, and Ramesses II is wasting his time teching to Constitution -> Democracy. What more could I ask for?



I used another trick in my books. When several cities had units that were 1 turn away from completion, I changed civics to Nationhood, Free Market, and Theocracy (Turn 230/850 AD). This had the additional benefit of granting me diplomatic points with Saladin and Zara Yaqob. I was also able to reduce my unit maintenance costs by building a trebuchet 1 turn to completion, then switching to a war elephant 1 turn to completion, then completing that trebuchet again next turn, and then finally, finishing the war elephant.

There were some good news on the diplomatic front: Wang Kon declared war on Cyrus! I wonder if we'll see Wang capture Persepolis, only to GIFT it back to Cyrus!



On the home front, I was slowly building up my meager army. The Globe Theatre in Agra certainly helped with raising an army. Here is Agra in action, drafting its 8th or 9th musketman.



It's not a phenomenal Globe Theatre city, but it's definitely much better than the Globe Theatre city I used in my Immortal/Boudica game.

Another thing I like to do in CIV is to keep some military units to oversee AI-to-AI wars. In this case, my warrior was able to see the Persia-Korea war.

The second Persia-Korea war arose out if irreconciliable tensions developed by the two civilizations stemming since the first Persia-Korea war. The first war, which ended in a stalemate, created issues over the city of Ecbatana, which had been captured by the Koreans but wrested out of their hands by war's end in what was a controversial peace treaty. In any event, the second Persia-Korea war, which officially began in 1010 AD, was much deadlier than the first as a result of the new technology of the time. In particular, the Koreans took advantage of using mounted knights in their attacks, which were much more powerful than the swordsmen and war elephants used in the last war. Whatever technological advantage the Koreans actually had in their war was minimal, as historians have often pointed out that as a result of diffusion and trading, the Persians were able to field pikemen to efficiently counter the Korean knights. The first major battle of the war was the Battle of Pasargadae. The Koreans, being the aggressors, made a valiant attempt to capture the centuries-old city from the Persians in the hopes of striking a quick blow to them. Their attack started out well, as they were able to wound or kill more than half of the Persian stack. In the end, much to the shock of the world, the Persians were able to withstand the assault. Historians disagree on the major cause of the Korean failure. Some point out the over-abundance of outdated hwachas (a type of siege weaponry) used in the attack. Others say that the Korean soldiers were ill-prepared to attack such a well defended city and that additional training was needed. Still, more point out the Korean general's personal weakness, which included going out with women instead of focusing on the heat of battle. In the end, the second Persian-Korean war was just as much a stalemate as the first. However, it wouldn't be the last major conflict between the two nations.

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I received, to no surprise, the list of the most powerful civs.



I made some more trades with Ramesses II to get Astronomy.



Yes, I'm crazy enough to give the prerequisite of Steel to him. Getting Astronomy meant that I was finally able to negotiate resource deals with the other continent (they had already obtained Astronomy ages ago). No trade routes are made yet, because all the civs are in Mercantilism.

Here are examples of trade routes I made. Saladin gave me 13 g-p-t, he wouldn't give me 16 g-p-t.





Finally, at long last.

Great tip on the map trading. Didn't know you could get that much money for it to be honest.

Yeah, map trading is brilliant. It works best when you're the first to contact the other civs on a differnet continent. In this game, I was fortunate that the only early contact was between Saladin and Wang Kon, who were annoyed with each other and wouldn't trade maps.

Anyway, part 2 of round 8 is now up! Enjoy!

Do you think that the GT is crucial to a post-Lib war ? Or can you war without it ?
Also how come Shaka isn't most powerful and Salad is above him ?
Why didn't you consider a Curi + Spies war seeing that Ramesses was going down Constitution + Democracy ?
Also Shaka's in WHE you think hes going to DoW you ?

I think the GT is pretty crucial, since it lets you raise a large army very quickly. Saladin was the most powerful because he had the most land, population, and is tops in technology. In fact, if I hadn't sabotaged him to hell in the endgame, he would have won the game before 1800 AD. (He would have launched at around 1770 AD.)

I never had horses, and my espionage was terrible.

Well, there was a risk of Shaka DoW-ing me. But the thing was, as you'll find out, I saw his huge navy heading towards my continent...and I gifted him a free technology to get him to pleased, then begged him for 1 gold, and he gave it to me! He went after Ramesses II afterwards.

DMOC said:

Well, there was a risk of Shaka DoW-ing me. But the thing was, as you'll find out, I saw his huge navy heading towards my continent...and I gifted him a free technology to get him to pleased, then begged him for 1 gold, and he gave it to me! He went after Ramesses II afterwards.

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Wasn't that a bit late? I mean does that influence AI after it gots full hands of blood?

Soirana said:

Wasn't that a bit late? I mean does that influence AI after it gots full hands of blood?

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The Pleased attitude alone isn't enough to prevent a DOW, but a 10-turn peace treaty is, at least for the time being.

@Soirana, Shaka was planning on Ramesses all along.

@ artichoker.
Sure thing.
But I meant if Shaka would have him as target would Shaka went for a peace treaty? IMHO, no. He was decided on other target from begining, all that trickery just confirmed the fact.

Yeah. I just wanted to play it safe for a bit. If after the 10 turn peace treaty was over and Shaka's navy was still outside of my borders, that would give me extra time to draft and build more units to defend the AI's invasion, which is usually pathetic anyway.

The weird thing is, after Shaka declared on Ramesses II, Shaka's navy went back to his homeland and he didn't unload a single unit on my continent.

Anyway, hopefully the next update will be tomorrow. I'd like to say Saturday at the latest, but you never know.

Round 9: 1090 AD to 1320 AD (31 Turns) - Ramesses II Defeated


Moving on here.

I traded Steel to Saladin in exchange for Replaceable Parts. Then, after researching into Rifling for a turn, I made this trade with Zara since Rifling became cheaper in his eyes.



As much as I like cannons, I like riflemen even better. I think riflemen were the right decision here. Ramesses II was nowhere near to getting them and the rifles, along with the cannons, would simply overpower any resistance he could offer. I later made use of that Great Merchant I obtained earlier by using the trade mission gold to upgrade 8 trebuchets into cannons (1 upgrade cost 110 gold). I also upgraded about 15 muskets into rifles with the extra gold left over. As you can imagine, with my two stacks ready and Ramesses II not having Steel or Replaceable Parts (and thus, Rifling), I declared war. It was time. 1180 AD, turn 263.



The stack pictured above is my first stack, and the smaller one to boot. The second one, as you can see, is heading for Memphis.

And it looks like I timed the war perfectly!



Ramesses II built the Statue of Liberty!

And in the background, you can see that Vijayanagara is suffering some serious culture pressure. Well, that's what the Hermitage wonder is for.

In just two turns since the declaration of war, my stack was ready to attack Heliopolis. My stack is selected and highlighted, while Ramesses II's defending stack is listed on the lower left corner of the screen.



Here's the blow-by-blow of the battle:

As you can imagine, with cannons, this city didn't stand a chance. I only needed to attack with 1 cannon (which withdrew) before the defenders looked like this:



I then attacked with my second cannon, a City Raider II cannon, which also withdrew. So after two cannons attacked, my combat I Riflemen had 87.5% odds versus the top defender. And he won!



After this, the other defenders were so battered that I didn't even promote my next attackers at all. I saved the promotions for later when the units would need healing since every promotion heals 50% of the damage each individual unit has. The city was mine, which came with the Hagia Sophia wonder and a settled Great Artist(!) and a settled Great Engineer.



Memphis suffered a similar fate, but first I had to face Ramesses II's not-so-scary-stack-of-doom.



It's made of Cuirassiers. And wide open. Uh...okay. At the cost of 1 cannon, I eradicated the stack with my units. I mainly used my obsolete units (musketmen, war elephants, pikemen) to destroy the stack while my riflemen jumped in to protect them afterwards, and remained healthy to capture Memphis the following turn. Also, in capturing this city, I split my stack into two groups to fight collater damage (there were plenty of catapults). But, as it would turn out, it might not have been necessary since Ramesses II didn't attack my stack at all! Well, I wasn't complaining.





I got my first Great General on turn 266, 1210 AD.

Like Heliopolis, Memphis had a wonder -- The Temple of Solomon (Jewish Shrine) providing 29 gold-per-turn, as well as tons of infrastructure. It also had yet another settled Great Artist(!) and a settled Great Prophet!

Finally, the moment I was waiting for all along! The Battle of Thebes!



After I used my cannons to suicide/attack the city, the defenders looked like this:



As you can imagine, I had plenty of 95%+ odds. Taking the city was very, very easy. I suffered NO losses. I was even corssing the river with half of my attacking force! That shows how hard it was....



By this point, Ramesses II was willing to capitulate. However, knowing how vassals ruin diplomacy (in more than one way), I declined. Also, Shaka decided to join in the war vs. Egypt on 1260 AD. I mentioned before that I had a caravel parked in the other continent in one of Shaka's coastal cities with a navy. As that navy began to move to my continent, my caravel followed it. A few turns later, I decided to gift Shaka a free technology (thus making him pleased) and begged 1 gold from him. He agreed, enforcing a 10-turn peace treaty. This was just for precaution -- I probably could have held off any stack he sent if he was after me all along. In fact, Shaka's navy later went back home and I never saw him deport any units in Egypt!

While half of my forces were healing in Thebes (well, it wasn't really necessary to heal for more than a turn because I had a medic 3 war elephant), the other, mostly healthy half assaulted Alexandria.



Uh...a deity-level Ramesses II is guarding his cities with axes in 1275 AD? No offense to him, but he's behaving like a noble-level AI. On top of that, Ramesses II just got a Great Merchant which I saw make a trade mission in Cyrus's land (the same city where I used my Great Merchant for a trade mission earlier), so he should have a bunch of gold in reserve. Too bad he didn't use the inter-turn to upgrade his units. Oh, and his galleon is there, so I get to destroy whatever's left of his navy as well.



I made a trade with Cyrus to get Steam Power.



It turned out that I had coal in a safe spot near Agra (finally! That useless peninsula had a resource!), so that wasn't a concern.

The battle of Pi-Ramesses.





The good news is that a bunch of his culture is now game. The bad news is that Cyrus and Wang Kon have culture there as well. Oh, this was the city that had the Statue of Liberty. Unfortunately, captured wonders no longer provide culture for me. Capturing this city brings me up to 3rd in land area and 3rd in score (which, unfortunately, means WFYABA will start kicking in soon).

Another turn, another city....



This was a bit harder to take because Ramesses II got Rifling! He must have made a trade. Also interesting is that Ramesses II was the first to Biology in this game! Oh well, it's too bad he won't be able to use his technological advantage.

Also, while Ramesses II was the first to Biology, Shaka beat everyone to Physics. I was hoping to get the free Great Scientist but I didn't have much hope anyway.

In the last turn of this round, at long last, my stack approached Ramesses II's last city. Ramesses II is now defeated.





Total time for the war: 1400 Years, 22 Turns.

Well played, sir I just have one question: how does this work?

DMOC said:

I used another trick in my books. When several cities had units that were 1 turn away from completion, I changed civics to Nationhood, Free Market, and Theocracy (Turn 230/850 AD). This had the additional benefit of granting me diplomatic points with Saladin and Zara Yaqob. I was also able to reduce my unit maintenance costs by building a trebuchet 1 turn to completion, then switching to a war elephant 1 turn to completion, then completing that trebuchet again next turn, and then finally, finishing the war elephant.

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I understand the diplo bonuses from theocracy, but where does the reduced maintenance come from?

1. In one city, I build a trebuchet 1 turn to completion.

2. I switch production to a war elephant which will take, say, 10 turns

3. After 9 turns, the war elephant has 1 turn left to completion. The trebuchet, further down in the city queue, also has 1 turn left to completion.

4. Switch civics

5. Finish the trebuchet first (to prevent hammer decay(*)) and then finish the war elephant. You now have made 2 units in 2 turns instead of 2 units in, say, 10 turns, saving on maintenance costs. It also results in a steeper rise in the power graph to confuse AI's.

(*) I don't know what the hammer decay threshold is for units on epic speed. It may be 10 or 15 turns. In my example here, I assumed it was 10 turns before hammers decayed.

DMOC said:

1. In one city, I build a trebuchet 1 turn to completion.

2. I switch production to a war elephant which will take, say, 10 turns

3. After 9 turns, the war elephant has 1 turn left to completion. The trebuchet, further down in the city queue, also has 1 turn left to completion.

4. Switch civics

5. Finish the trebuchet first (to prevent hammer decay(*)) and then finish the war elephant. You now have made 2 units in 2 turns instead of 2 units in, say, 10 turns, saving on maintenance costs. It also results in a steeper rise in the power graph to confuse AI's.

(*) I don't know what the hammer decay threshold is for units on epic speed. It may be 10 or 15 turns. In my example here, I assumed it was 10 turns before hammers decayed.

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Aha! that's very clever, I would never have considered that tactic. I guess that's why I play Monarch instead of Deity. And switching to nationhood at the same time to capitalize on drafting Theocracy boosted units I presume?

Yes, because by the time I was about to finish my 1-turn-from-completion units, my Globe Theatre city was ready to begin drafting. I let the city grow for a few turns (building research) so that I could draft several turns in a row. Theocracy + Barracks meant that my drafted units started with 2 XP points rather than the 1 XP point it would be without theocracy. This trick can be done with any leader, not just Spiritual ones.

Free Market should be self-explanatory, with it's economic boosts. Even without foreign trade routes (all AI's were in mercantilism), the extra trade route in my cities help.

Good job, DMOC. Really shows why high levels are still winnable... the AI is incompetent at war.

Had a similar situation in an offline immortal game. Pacal had the full constitution line, the economics line and the scientific method line up to physics and biology on me.

What did I have on him? Rifling and Steel. He lasted 10 turns on normal.

Somehow I think the AI should be able to see whether a human player is planning a war and react accordingly. A human in 'WHEOOHRN' in the Renaissance will often end beelining Rifling and Steel, if only the AI could think about what we are planning. It would make for a more interesting game as well, where you are even more racing against time.

The AI knows this to some extent by the power graph. Usually the AI will react to a steep increase in human power by building their own units. However, what usually ends up happening is that the sheer amount of military the humans end up building still isn't matched by the AI. I remember a game I had where Suryavarman II built so many units at the same time I was (reacting to my power) so I just gave up on attacking him and targeted someone else.

totally innocent bump for completion
>.>
<.<

Yeah, the only way I could finish this now is if I reloaded from one of the saves up here earlier on the thread, which would just take so much time, etc. How about checking the new and (in my opinion) more exciting 30 civs map?

^The 30 civs map is on immortal and is a lot easier than this one imo. But if it's gone it's gone, it was won anyway in your last update iirc.