SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

klarius said:

Well there is one way, but it comes out worse for the library build and growth. That's doing windmill first, building settler.

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Nice spot, but I don't think I'll be doing it.

ZPV said:

The library can be done in 3t if you don't work either corn while building it. I hadn't considered this possiblity.

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If we're at pop3, then we can work one corn and 2 sci, so I would get the library done in 3t. I haven't really compared the two variants. No point in growing faster than our workers can develop the tiles.

No comments on PPP. Good luck ZPV.

LowtherCastle said:

If we're at pop3, then we can work one corn and 2 sci, so I would get the library done in 3t. I haven't really compared the two variants. No point in growing faster than our workers can develop the tiles.

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The windmill will be complete on ~T23, no? And second windmill on ~T28, which is roughly when the library is complete. Fish city settled ~T26 will not grow before second windmill, so Murky will have two improved tiles once the library is completed. Pop4 is then more suitable.

BTW - airships cannot destroy units, can they? Can they sink barb galley, or just damage them?

EDIT: ZPV - go ahead and play

PPP looks good, ZPV!

ZPV said:

Drydocks + West Point are one possiblity, but we know the city has at most 2 pop. My guess is there are lots of settled specialists there.
If they have a trading post, things could be very interesting. We will be able to tell if they build a lighthouse as well, because sea tiles will have three food.
A couple of GGs, GSs and GEs would allow the galley we see, as well.

All this says, we probably want to capture this city sooner rather than later.

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LowtherCastle said:

Of course. I was having a bit of fun, because I assume Gyathaar takes a gander at our threads occasionally, especially where his name pops up... But he should really clarify that in the maintenance thread, because he used the word unit and CIV officially classifies naval units as a sub-category of units. So technically what he wrote is not true if he gave them galleys.

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I guess ZPVs theory could be remotely possible. But is it likely? Fishing is 39 beakers, Sailing is 99 beakers. Then 33h for a galley that is at least three moves from its harbour. All in 15 turns.

I think we should ask Gyathaar for a clarification.

Erkon said:

The windmill will be complete on ~T23, no? And second windmill on ~T28, which is roughly when the library is complete. Fish city settled ~T26 will not grow before second windmill, so Murky will have two improved tiles once the library is completed. Pop4 is then more suitable.

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Whatever gets us the max beakers. Makes sense that pop4 asap would be better. I'm talking about pop some turns later on, because anyway we'll work 2sci for 6t. But if Sparta makes new workers fast enough, maybe improvements will keep up with MW if it's growing and building the Oracle.

I'm okay with you playing, ZPV.

Well, play ZPV. I don't see that we can do much else.

BTW my current test save.
If you look into world builder you see that the barbs have already landed a warrior near Amsterdam, who is hanging around uninterested for the moment.

ZPV said:

Pre Play Plan t15-25

CITY MM
Work both corn tiles while building the settler. Growing takes two turns, 1 with cornfarm + corn, 2nd turn with 2 cornfarms. After that work 2xcorn + grass forest. Once a windmill is complete, work that. The settler has 64/65 hammers the turn before Writing is done, allowing maximum overflow into the Library.
On the last turn, building the Library, work both corn and the windmill.

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Using klarius' save, following your MM, I get 58/65 in the setler build before writing is done, rather than 64/65.

Okay, never mind. There's something wrong with klarius' save: it gives one less food-hammer to the settler per turn than it should. Don't ask me why.

EDIT: One more thing. Since we're delaying Writing a turn anyway, it might be worth considering banking the extra coins on the last turn before Writing so we can research at 100% for several turns after Sparta has been founded and we have our +75% on research. Especially if we decide to go for the CS-sling, this could be crucial. The only question would be whether this would slow down Phood a turn and whether that would be a problem. Checkit. It's only +2g. We'd have to save more after writing is done. I'm testing it.
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I'll play up to writing this afternoon.

Okay, it's not till writing, but we should go to 0% research for 2 turns immediately when writing is done. This does not delay Phood at all and gives us enough cash reserves to research at 100% until the CS-sling or whatever else we decide to research. It gains us something like 17 beakers over not doing it.

LowtherCastle said:

Okay, it's not till writing, but we should go to 0% research for 2 turns immediately when writing is done. This does not delay Phood at all and gives us enough cash reserves to research at 100% until the CS-sling or whatever else we decide to research. It gains us something like 17 beakers over not doing it.

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Excellent! The peanut gallery strikes again!

LowtherCastle said:

Looking at the cards Gyathaar has dealt us, it's dismal. Here's what we see:

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No wonder we wanna launch to space.





Airships can hurt units till a maximum of 20%. Generally 16% on the first blow.
Airships can unfog those plain tiles wonderfully, if set to explore everyturn.




Let's always do 0% or 100% research, otherwise we lose 1 commerce per turn (except for some special numbers of commerce).




I'd hate settling on the cows. We don't have resources to spare, that would be a terrible waste. My first feeling is 1 city 1N of cows, another 2S of cows.

LowtherCastle said:

Okay, it's not till writing, but we should go to 0% research for 2 turns immediately when writing is done. This does not delay Phood at all and gives us enough cash reserves to research at 100% until the CS-sling or whatever else we decide to research. It gains us something like 17 beakers over not doing it.

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Why 2 turns? We could do 1 turn 0%, then 100% till it runs out, then 0% again for 1 turn.

That could speed up PH 1 turn in some cases. And there is not benefit in keeping some coins at hand since it's no RE. The worst that can happen is that we do another single 0% turn before PH.

jesusin said:

Why 2 turns? We could do 1 turn 0%, then 100% till it runs out, then 0% again for 1 turn.

That could speed up PH 1 turn in some cases. And there is not benefit in keeping some coins at hand since it's no RE. The worst that can happen is that we do another single 0% turn before PH.

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It's better to run 0% before we have library and academy. I don't think we will be production limited, so PH date is not critical, Math is.

jesusin said:

Why 2 turns? We could do 1 turn 0%, then 100% till it runs out, then 0% again for 1 turn.

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It's two turns because 3 turns does slow down PH and doesn't help with the CS-slingshot, because it gives us gold beyond the slingshot date. One turn does not give us enough for the slingshot, so we lose beakers to the slingshot. Two turns is the right balance. Anyway, this is your bright idea, jesusin. This is just like doing 0% research after Education and before Oxford. So, thanks for the idea.

Erkon said:

It's better to run 0% before we have library and academy. I don't think we will be production limited, so PH date is not critical, Math is.

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Exactly. I just tested it and we build the Oracle too fast, so there's even some room for growing MW faster for more coins and building the Oracle a bit slower.

I'm playing now.

LowtherCastle said:

It's two turns because 3 turns does slow down PH and doesn't help with the CS-slingshot, because it gives us gold beyond the slingshot date. One turn does not give us enough for the slingshot, so we lose beakers to the slingshot. Two turns is the right balance. Anyway, this is your bright idea, jesusin. This is just like doing 0% research after Education and before Oxford. So, thanks for the idea.

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Oops, that's what happens when you write about civ in the place you shouldn't...



By the way, maximizing overflow on Library means delaying settler 1 turn. Anyway, in this game it is ok to do so. I'm ok with the PPP.

Turnset Report t15-25

t15
The scout reveals fish near the the pigs.
IBT: My computer can't run animations, so I don't know for sure where the barb galley went. I think it went north.

t16
The scout reveals more jungle.

t17
Switch to a warrior, as planned.
The scout reveal Clams now. There is a clams + pigs + fish site now available in the far south.

t18
More jungle in the south. Farm done.

t19
Switch back to a Settler. The worker moves onto the eastern hill.
The scout finds plains cow. It is nearly at the end of the jungle.

t20

t21
The scout continues south along the coast. I can see a plains wheat and a desert cow hill.
IBT: the barb galley shows up... in the south near the scout.

t22
The scout finds a grass cow.

t23
The scout moves onto the plains hill forest... and we see an archer!
We meet Joao II of Portugal. He has only one city, and the unit we can see is a combat 1 Archer. His best unit is an Archer.

t24
Settler done. Writing done. Research->0%. I'm done for the day. Save coming soon attached.
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continuing after discussion to post 255
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Scout moves. Fish is revealed, and the Uniquely Recognisable Barbarian Galley(TM) is visible.
OB with Joao.
Switch build to a Library.
IBT: another barb galley comes into view, with the same promotions as the first one.

t25
time to go upload.
Here's the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm9/Murky_Waters_SG009_BC2500_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

ZPV said:

IBT: the barb galley shows up... in the south near the scout.

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Is it the same one? Can you distinguish the faces?

Nice play, ZPV

So, are we going to build another settler before Oracle?

How about The Wheel first, and another worker to start paving the way south?

How to we contain the barb galley threat? Netting the clam/fish is a bit risky, no?

There's lots of nice sites along the coast. It would be nice to have an airport to lift settlers directly to the front