SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

LowtherCastle · Apr 17, 2009

Thanks for all the feedback, guys. Appears we have some answers to our happiness question. I'll trust your judgment. But I still think using forest preserves (EDIT: in MW) is counterproductive.

In MW, preserves are a false crutch--using a tile for happiness so we can work a cottage that we can't build because that tile's being used for happiness. :crazyeye:

I would like to tie jesusin's actions to a Strategic Plan, if possible. We're agreed on cottaging MW, right? FF could work 2 cottages. Marble could work 5 more at pop6. MW could work the other 6 with 2 windmills at pop8, but needs pop10 to work the 2 corn for ongoing growth. Clams could help out on 2 of those 6. So how to get this done asap?

Prioritize Marble City (3W) to pop6 asap.
* granary asap, maybe chopped with an ice forest
* needs 6

(EDIT: e.g., Confucianism + a forest preserve at MW 2NW, shared w/FF)
* protection from barb capture
* works 3-4 grass tiles while growing, preferably cottages

Notes:
1. Do we need to sink wkr-turns into a marble quarry now? If we want some more hammers, a plains/hill windmill is good and doesn't require Masonry.
2. If we're still hell-bent on making a preserve, it might as well be at MW 1NW where Marble City also shares it and can work it. But I still voting AGAINST. (jesusin, if you make it, I hope you have nightmares about mining pig hills... :lol:

)

Achtung: All chops in MW's FC should be directed to MW!!!

@jesusin: c'mon. Good question. I knew it, but had to look it up to make sure.

LowtherCastle · Apr 17, 2009

Uh...guys...thanks to jesusin the Jenius, we have a problem. A BIG problem. Or is it an opportunity? :devil:

It's not just windmills, it's cottages (and farms too). Build cottage on forest = 5t. Chop first, then cottage = 6t. :eek:

So methinks we need Pottery immediately after the Bureau revolt.

jesusin's Workers
I don't think getting the windmill on T45 is as beneficial as it first appears. It's true that MW+FF have pop10 and only 7 improved tiles, but...I wouldn't even windmill that hill with either existing worker, but rather with the new one from FF. :eek:

Here's my suggestion, then rationale:

Code:

     Wkr1(N)  Wkr2(S)  Wkr3(FF)    comments
T41  mvFF-SW  mvE                  wkr1 rds 1 tile, pastures sheep, [COLOR="Red"]w/Phalanx?[/COLOR]
T42  rd       chop                 wkr2 to chop for Oracle

T43  rd       chop     mvtohill    wkr3 to build windmill
T44  [COLOR="Red"]mvW[/COLOR]      chop     millwind    [COLOR="red"]only wasted mvmt[/COLOR]

T45  pasture  mvMW-SW  millwind   
T46  pasture  rd       millwind

T47  pasture  rd       millwind    revolt to Bureau
T48  [COLOR="Blue"]done[/COLOR]     rdSE     millwind    [COLOR="blue"]Marble City settled[/COLOR]

T49  mvE      cottage  done        Pottery done    
T50  preserv  cott/rd  cott/etc

Rationale: Only 1 move wasted. Pasture done same turn Marble settled. By this plan, we lose 3 turns of windmill production (e.g., 6f+7h+1.5g, if we work 1sci instead), in exchange for 2f+1g for each turn the sheep pasture is later than T48 plus 2 lost wkr-turns before the windmill is done and more lost wkr-turns turns after the windmill is done--where do those two workers go next? Pottery isn't done on T45, so they can't start cottaging. They're stuck over there in the boondocks. Also, I somehow don't like the idea of using more than one wkr for Marble City, unless it's building MW cottages.

Forest Preserves
The only one we need is MW 2NW!!! This tile is shared by FF and Marble City, so they can both get to 6

with Confucianism, but doesn't prevent us from cottaging all of MW's tiles. Wkr2 might make this preserve after finishing the sheep pasture, or maybe after chopping the ice tile for the Marble granary. Whatever.

Revolt to Confucianism
Pottery first, no matter what.

Hey, ever notice that if you re-arrange jesusin, you get jeniuss? :cool:

ZPV · Apr 17, 2009

Hey everyone! Sorry for going inactive these past few days.

Nice play, FiveAces!

jesusin: I like the look of your PPP. I don't mind the fact that there isn't much margin for error. I haven't looked at the MM in too much detail, so I can't comment on it.

re the Scout: I think someone has already said this, but I can't find it, so I'll restate it. There are (or will be very soon) human barbs. If the scout runs into one of those, he'll be dead regardless of whether or not he's stopped to heal. So, IMO, the scout should continue exploring immediately.

@everyone: There has been some talk of developing cottages into towns ASAP, and worrying about how long that takes. I don't care what date they become towns. They become productive as soon as they are villages, and that only takes 19 turns. I would prefer that every cottage is a village on the turn we get PP to having a few towns and a few hamlets.

I agree with LC, pottery before revolt to Confucianism, but IMO we will want to revolt soon after that. (maybe while settler #4 is travelling?)

jesusin · Apr 17, 2009

LowtherCastle said:
Here's my suggestion, then rationale:

Hey, ever notice that if you re-arrange jesusin, you get jeniuss?

What's the MM to go wiht it? Work sea tiles? Seems inferior to me.

Ha, don't ask about my family name, then.

jesusin · Apr 17, 2009

ZPV said:
re the Scout: I think someone has already said this, but I can't find it, so I'll restate it. There are (or will be very soon) human barbs. If the scout runs into one of those, he'll be dead regardless of whether or not he's stopped to heal. So, IMO, the scout should continue exploring immediately.

I agree with LC, pottery before revolt to Confucianism, but IMO we will want to revolt soon after that. (maybe while settler #4 is travelling?)

Ok, scout doesn't heal.

Ok, I don't revolt to confu

LowtherCastle · Apr 17, 2009

jesusin said:
What's the MM to go wiht it? Work sea tiles? Seems inferior to me.

I don't see that it has anything to do with MM. Was your MM depending on the FF SW forest preserve? :crazyeye:

If so, re-do your MM. That fast forest preserve is worse than the fast windmill (because who needs a steenkin' forest preserve).

Listen, your main goal is to get teh CS slingshot before an AI does it. A few bushels or hammers in FF doesn't have anything to do with T100, imo.

LowtherCastle · Apr 17, 2009

jesusin said:
Ok, scout doesn't heal.

Btw, if our goal is to find out if Joao has met anyone else, then wouldn't that mean that the 'someone else' has to be locked on the other side of Joao's closed borders? Because otherwise, by T41 it's pretty unlikely that guy wouldn't have found us too.

ZPV · Apr 17, 2009

LowtherCastle said:
Btw, if our goal is to find out if Joao has met anyone else, then wouldn't that mean that the 'someone else' has to be locked on the other side of Joao's closed borders? Because otherwise, by T41 it's pretty unlikely that guy wouldn't have found us too.

There is always the espionage ratio. atm we can tell that he hasn't met anyone else, the 4EP difference is explained by one turn of revolt, so he hasn't met anyone yet.

Erkon · Apr 17, 2009

LowtherCastle said:
Btw, if our goal is to find out if Joao has met anyone else, then wouldn't that mean that the 'someone else' has to be locked on the other side of Joao's closed borders? Because otherwise, by T41 it's pretty unlikely that guy wouldn't have found us too.

LC - don't complain to jeniuss about moving the injured scout! It's me and ZPV that you can argue with! Alright, perhaps you didn't complain :confused:

Goal is to reveal as many tiles as possible before the scout is obsolete. More specifically those tiles that an airship cannot reveal. Also to find hills/mountains that are suitable as recon points.

jesusin said:
Com'on guy, what kind of comparison is that?

Of course settling on hill we will also work that windmill of yours! Please compare the 2 tiles we are talking about. Also I want to help MW a bit with its cottages, while avoiding the horrible no-food city (I've had nightmares this night with it, everybody there was skinny, was called LC and was bathed in tomato juice, yikes!).

It's a relevant comparison :goodjob:

Why do I have to choose the plains to compare? If you settle 3W and work marble, then I settle on Marble, and pick any tile of my choice that you can't work from 3W, else the comparison is invalid. Running a cottage on 3W will gain two coins and loose one hammer, while running the windmill will gain one coin.

I am of course assuming that another city will work the grass 2SW of MW.

My point is that settling on marble or working the marble is similar. But that is not significant if 3W means we can grow faster (sheep + several grass), while maturing MW cottages. I'm fine with 3W if the rationale is to mature cottages and grow fast, but I'm not fine if the rationale is that settling on marble would waste hammers (which it won't).

EDIT: LC, please, how do you write "com'on"?

It's spelled like this: "Erkon was right, I was wrong" :lol:

LowtherCastle said:
Listen, your main goal is to get teh CS slingshot before an AI does it. A few bushels or hammers in FF doesn't have anything to do with T100, imo.

Yes, absolutely.

jesusin - I hope our "advice" has helped you

It's your turn set - good luck! :goodjob:

LowtherCastle · Apr 17, 2009

Good luck, jesusin!

jesusin · Apr 17, 2009

LowtherCastle said:
I don't see that it has anything to do with MM. Was your MM depending on the FF SW forest preserve? If so, re-do your MM.

Why do you think everyone is presenting PPPs where several workers go to the same place?
To get and improvement up and running by T45! That's needed to get the sling in time.

LowtherCastle said:
That fast forest preserve is worse than the fast windmill (because who needs a steenkin' forest preserve).

Who?

You! Your cottages do!

Am I ready? Check list:

Siesta... checked
3 worker plans... checked
choose the best one... oops

Gnejs · Apr 17, 2009

jesusin said:
Ha, don't ask about my family name, then.

Let me guess: Arcutull Trovicy

jesusin · Apr 17, 2009

Turnset report T41-T49

T41: Suicidal Sco moves E-NE(no, E-E, cause E-2NE is hill and will get there anyway next turn), Warrior moves towards sheep. Workers according to PPP set up a chop and a preserve.
T42: We know Maths, pick a random tech to follow, say CoL. It says it will take 6 turns, I don't believe that. Scout finds Hammurabi¡s bowman. He knows Joao (must be this very same turn, according to spy points).

Stopping as per PPP. I suggest
1.- OB
2.- Keeping our spy points as they are, 50%-50%.

Continuing after post 435.

T42: Open borders with Ham.

T43: MW produces Spear that heads W, continues with Oracle. FF produces WW, starts Settler. 67/349, as expected. MW's overflow is 5 as expected. There is a second Ham bowman 3W of FF. Ham spy ratio: 4/2. Joao spy ratio 76/78 (Was 72/76 previous turn). Looks like they are not using spy points on each other (?)

T44: 2 food left in capital. 2 workers preserving now. Chop.

T45: MW borders expand. Jeniuss the thinker is born in MW (GS), settles there. Press Control+A preserve done. MM: MW 1 sci to corn; FF 1 corn to just-built preserve. Everything reads right now, CoL in 2turns, Oracle too. I'll leave the lake to forest MM for next turn, I feel insegure, Erkon said I wouldn't finish the settler... and somehow I expected 3 coins in that preserve.

T46: South Worker chopping 1SE of MW. Pair of Workers, one advances SE, one roads. MM: MW corn to preserve; FF preserve to corn, FF lake to forest.
Ja, ja, CoL still in 1 turn, as expected. It's spelled like this: "Jeniuss was right, Erkon was wrong"
Regular barb galley W of 5-tiles lake.

T47: We know CoL, confu founded in FF. Oracle finished, pick CS. Settler finished in FF, start Worker. Start airship in MW. Not bad, 1 gold left, 0 spare beakers.

Stopping to receive congratulations. And a bit of advice too. Save attached.

Continuing after post 454.

T47: Choose Pottery next. Revolt to CS and slavery (1 turn anarchy)
T48: MM MW from sci to forest so as to have 12 base hammers with the overflow. Corns stay with FF. Road and chop finished. Marble city settled 1W of marble, can't start on granary so put 1 turn of hammers into library. It is connected and has a traderoute. Slider: 60%. Start pasturing.
Joao Archer S of our borders. Barb Warrrior close to our Scout, but not too close, 2W1N, plank avoided.
T49: FF borders expand. Pottery known, choose Alpha. Airship built in MM, start granary. Confu spreads to Marble, as planned. Barb Archer 3W of Marble. Marble changes to Granary. Slider 100%. Move no units, wish good luck to the next player.

Session log

Spoiler :

jesusin · Apr 17, 2009

Do as you please, Jeniuss, it's not so important.

jesusin · Apr 17, 2009

Ok, continuing...

Gnejs · Apr 17, 2009

Hammurabi, how interesting!

Are the beakers and hammers coming along as in your PPP?

LowtherCastle · Apr 17, 2009

jesusin said:
Why do you think everyone is presenting PPPs where several workers go to the same place?
To get and improvement up and running by T45! That's needed to get the sling in time.

Then you didn't read mine, but wtf. Mine didn't need no steenkin' nada on T45. Alas...impatient hysterical ladies are like that.

jesusin · Apr 17, 2009

Turnset report updated here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7996320&postcount=433
Save attached.

Questions:
1.- What to do with missionary.
2.- Suggested MM for next turns, in particular, how many scientists in MW?
3.- Shall I forget to revolt this turn?
4.- Alpha or PH?

My take:
1.- get frozen, confu will spread on its own.
2.- dunno, maybe 1 corn for MW, 2 sci. Maybe both corns for MW, no scis to grow asap. Help needed.
3.- I'd better don't.
4.- Alpha.

I'll probably continue tomorrow morning, 10 hours from now, depending on discussion.

jesusin · Apr 17, 2009

Gnejs said:
Hammurabi, how interesting!

Are the beakers and hammers coming along as in your PPP?

Sure they are!

Do you know him personally? How is he like civwise?

LowtherCastle · Apr 17, 2009

Looking at the save, it's blatantly obvious you didn't read what I wrote. Should I bother? Wtf, I will.

1. NO MORE CHOPS. The MW 1SE chop is wasting a worker-turn. Very sad. WE COTTAGE ONLY.

Chopping then cottaging wastes a worker-turn.
Chopping then cottaging wastes a worker-turn.
Chopping then cottaging wastes a worker-turn.

2. RESEARCH POTTERY NEXT.

SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

Deity

Deity

Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

Ant

Ant

Deity

Deity

Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

Deity

Deity

Ant

Deity

Ant

Attachments

Ant

Ant

Deity

Deity

Ant

Ant

Deity

Similar threads