SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
No MC. Go for Biology.
LowtherCastle
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Good luck, FiveAces! Lots of pressure on you now. It's on you to save Gnejs.
If we dont win the gold now, Gnejs might give up and become an admin or something...And please don't screw up.I still have nightmares about my turnset...
...If we dont win the gold now, Gnejs might give up and become an admin or something...
Our next Captain, perchance?
I had a look at the save, and I wonder when we're going to get our research up to speed? Loot will boost us the next ten turns, but what then? Caste => Merchants? Printing Press will give beakers in MW, but not that many elsewhere. How are we going to get higher than 50% research?
Our next Captain, perchance?
I had a look at the save, and I wonder when we're going to get our research up to speed? Loot will boost us the next ten turns, but what then? Caste => Merchants? Printing Press will give beakers in MW, but not that many elsewhere. How are we going to get higher than 50% research?
Specialists.
Edit: well, they won't change the slider but 50 scientists + cheap library and uni = 450 additional beakers per turn. Can we get 50? Sure we can, we just need plenty of farms and planty of more cities.
ok played through most of t111 because everything seemed to flow naturally but now have hit a good stopping point.
FiveAces turnset report t105-113
t105 900AD
Murky hires sci
kill barb mace
kill 2x barb galleys
assyrian has hill2 CG2 lb and warrior
IBT: nothing
t106 920AD
chem in set on bio (9)
capture libyan (has nothing, start granary)
poprush FF
chase barb mace that didn't suicide - this stupid thing ends up delaying the capture of Babylon by 3 turns because hammy endlessly dumps units in there
anyway more on that later
blockade Atlantis (you can sit on the diagonal just outside the fat cross and still blockade the whole thing)
moving to uMu shaka has a new city on the far SW corner
IBT: Joao converts to Christianity
Hammy has feudalism
t107 940AD
capture 2 barb workers at libyan
airlift miss to libyan
DOW hammy
rebase airship
IBT: Apostolic Palace resolution to stop the war on Hammy - we defy
Stalin DOWs WK
Joao into org rel and beauro
t108 960AD
whip lib in MR
fish to Stalin for silk
IBT: the AP vote passed with 126/88 req'd. Good thing we defied
t109 980AD
keep killing hammy's units. he has a ton
airlift garrison to libyan
shaka still has sword/arch in uMu
kill another barb galley
IBT: Joao build Notre Dame
Hammy has a GArtist
t110 1000AD
2 cats short of capturing babylon - if you've been keeping track that's 3 straight turns of 4 units killed
DOW shaka, capture uMu, forget to rebase airship but won't matter anyway
IBT: Stalin asks for help against WK, we decline
Joao asks to convert to Christianity, we decline drops to pleased and crap that costs us a philo trade (he got philo IBT as well) - why did he have to pick that turn
Murky pops a GArtist and a GG
t111 1020AD
Capture Babylon (finally) - granary odeon cthouse Zeus and AP (no airport)
notice the GA moved to Odin, will prob bomb and cost us use of the fort - empty paras
we will take Dur-K next turn
scout Ulundi w para - will need reinforcements, the question is do we move adjacent with the current 3 and start killing next turn or heal/airlift for 2 turns or so and then try to take in 2 turns?
also what to do with the GG?
We lost 1 mace the whole time.
I should have built another para in SWC instead of a uni. And not listened to LC and poprush the FP para. Other than that I think I played pretty well so far.
Save attached.
Turnlog
Autolog
FiveAces turnset report t105-113
t105 900AD
Murky hires sci
kill barb mace
kill 2x barb galleys
assyrian has hill2 CG2 lb and warrior
IBT: nothing
t106 920AD
chem in set on bio (9)
capture libyan (has nothing, start granary)
poprush FF
chase barb mace that didn't suicide - this stupid thing ends up delaying the capture of Babylon by 3 turns because hammy endlessly dumps units in there
anyway more on that laterblockade Atlantis (you can sit on the diagonal just outside the fat cross and still blockade the whole thing)
moving to uMu shaka has a new city on the far SW corner
IBT: Joao converts to Christianity
Hammy has feudalism
t107 940AD
capture 2 barb workers at libyan
airlift miss to libyan
DOW hammy
rebase airship
IBT: Apostolic Palace resolution to stop the war on Hammy - we defy
Stalin DOWs WK
Joao into org rel and beauro
t108 960AD
whip lib in MR
fish to Stalin for silk
IBT: the AP vote passed with 126/88 req'd. Good thing we defied
t109 980AD
keep killing hammy's units. he has a ton
airlift garrison to libyan
shaka still has sword/arch in uMu
kill another barb galley
IBT: Joao build Notre Dame
Hammy has a GArtist
t110 1000AD
2 cats short of capturing babylon
- if you've been keeping track that's 3 straight turns of 4 units killedDOW shaka, capture uMu, forget to rebase airship but won't matter anyway
IBT: Stalin asks for help against WK, we decline
Joao asks to convert to Christianity, we decline drops to pleased and crap that costs us a philo trade (he got philo IBT as well) - why did he have to pick that turn
Murky pops a GArtist and a GG
t111 1020AD
Capture Babylon (finally) - granary odeon cthouse Zeus and AP (no airport)
notice the GA moved to Odin, will prob bomb and cost us use of the fort - empty paras
we will take Dur-K next turn
scout Ulundi w para - will need reinforcements, the question is do we move adjacent with the current 3 and start killing next turn or heal/airlift for 2 turns or so and then try to take in 2 turns?
also what to do with the GG?
We lost 1 mace the whole time.
I should have built another para in SWC instead of a uni. And not listened to LC
and poprush the FP para. Other than that I think I played pretty well so far.Save attached.
Turnlog
Spoiler :
Autolog
Spoiler :
Good progress.
Ulundi is already threatened, so you might as well start attacking at once. He may evacuate if you are lucky. Airlift one paratrooper / turn. Did Hammurabi attack with his airships? Shaka may do. EDIT: we can't airlift this or next turn 
(see post below for war plan)
Other reflections:
I want more paratroopers so that we can capture Moscow. Hammurabi has chopped another forest in Babylon, so I don't like that city for National Park any longer.
Will you CF Hammurabi next turn? I don't think you should, since we need Joao back to Friendly for tech trade.
I think you should capture Madrid too.
Now that Stalin is in war with WK, he may have evacuated his loose troops, so we should backstab soon.
Why WB and Galleon in KT? Build atrooper or market instead.
I want markets and grocers in cities where we will run merchants. The earlier the better.
What happened to the corn that MW is not working?
Settle GG in C1 for +2 XP.
(see post below for war plan)Other reflections:
I want more paratroopers so that we can capture Moscow. Hammurabi has chopped another forest in Babylon, so I don't like that city for National Park any longer.
Will you CF Hammurabi next turn? I don't think you should, since we need Joao back to Friendly for tech trade.
I think you should capture Madrid too.
Now that Stalin is in war with WK, he may have evacuated his loose troops, so we should backstab soon.
Why WB and Galleon in KT? Build a
I want markets and grocers in cities where we will run merchants. The earlier the better.
What happened to the corn that MW is not working?
Settle GG in C1 for +2 XP.
LowtherCastle
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We need to vote Joao in as the Apostolic leader and get a resolution passed asap. And wipe Hammi and his treaty-deficating ass off the map.
Good progress on Babylon and Libyan!
But where are the paras for Ulundi? We should be airlifting one per turn into Umgung now. The target was six paras, right? As it is now I very much doubt that we will be capturing Ulundi anytime soon. One para is needed to defend umGung, the mace alone will not stop a pair of horse archers.
And please stop blockading Atlantis! That is our future great people that you are starving. The five pop that has died already is a potential loss of 1800 gpp.
But where are the paras for Ulundi? We should be airlifting one per turn into Umgung now. The target was six paras, right? As it is now I very much doubt that we will be capturing Ulundi anytime soon. One para is needed to defend umGung, the mace alone will not stop a pair of horse archers.
And please stop blockading Atlantis! That is our future great people that you are starving. The five pop that has died already is a potential loss of 1800 gpp.
FiveAces, how about this:
FF switch to paratrooper and rush next turn (also work the free corn, and run two scientists this turn)
SW Clam builds market next turn
KT switch to Market (no need for wb or galleon)
Libyan workers start silk plantation next turn
FP swap from odeon to paratroopers this turn
War Plan
C1 paratrooper completes next turn and airlift on T113
FF paratrooper completes in two turns and lift on T114
FP paratrooper completes next turn and goes by Galleon-chain to uMgung on T114 (six paratroopers in Africa). Attack Ulundi on T115, capture on T117, then slow war.
The Hammurabi war should phase out to a slow war with five paratroopers (one defending Babylon, and the other four jump from city to city anti-clock wise, which enables us to leave city empty. Rifleman goes to Kur-Durigalzu. Hammi war will be over in 19 turns from now.
C1 completes next paratrooper on T115, lift to Libyan on T116. Join the two European paratroopers there. Attack Stalin on T117.
The four most healthy paratroopers that are freed from the Hammurabi campaign jump to C1 on T113, then jump to coast on T114 and board a galleon (1E of cow) and galleon chained 3W of Madrid. They unload on T115 in Madrid, and jump towards Libyan. These four paratroopers can then join the attack on Stalin on T117 (seven paratroopers involved).
Yaroslavl captured on T118. C1 completes paratrooper on T118, lift to Yaroslavl on T119. Seven paratroopers jump to Moscow on T120, and capture on T121 or T122.
Clean up and capture the cities we want up until T130, when the wars are over. Any questions?
Why can't we become the Apostolic Leader? Once we have all Hammi's cities, we could vote for whatever we want, yes?
Gnejs, are you referring to Theater/Globe rush in Atlantis? Didn't we agree on building the Globe somewhere else? Such as in MR??
FF switch to paratrooper and rush next turn (also work the free corn, and run two scientists this turn)
SW Clam builds market next turn
KT switch to Market (no need for wb or galleon)
Libyan workers start silk plantation next turn
FP swap from odeon to paratroopers this turn
War Plan
C1 paratrooper completes next turn and airlift on T113
FF paratrooper completes in two turns and lift on T114
FP paratrooper completes next turn and goes by Galleon-chain to uMgung on T114 (six paratroopers in Africa). Attack Ulundi on T115, capture on T117, then slow war.
The Hammurabi war should phase out to a slow war with five paratroopers (one defending Babylon, and the other four jump from city to city anti-clock wise, which enables us to leave city empty. Rifleman goes to Kur-Durigalzu. Hammi war will be over in 19 turns from now.
C1 completes next paratrooper on T115, lift to Libyan on T116. Join the two European paratroopers there. Attack Stalin on T117.
The four most healthy paratroopers that are freed from the Hammurabi campaign jump to C1 on T113, then jump to coast on T114 and board a galleon (1E of cow) and galleon chained 3W of Madrid. They unload on T115 in Madrid, and jump towards Libyan. These four paratroopers can then join the attack on Stalin on T117 (seven paratroopers involved).
Yaroslavl captured on T118. C1 completes paratrooper on T118, lift to Yaroslavl on T119. Seven paratroopers jump to Moscow on T120, and capture on T121 or T122.
Clean up and capture the cities we want up until T130, when the wars are over. Any questions?
Why can't we become the Apostolic Leader? Once we have all Hammi's cities, we could vote for whatever we want, yes?
...And please stop blockading Atlantis! That is our future great people that you are starving. The five pop that has died already is a potential loss of 1800 gpp.
Gnejs, are you referring to Theater/Globe rush in Atlantis? Didn't we agree on building the Globe somewhere else? Such as in MR??
Erkon your plan looks good. Unfortunately due to a RL crisis I will be unable to complete the turnset so I am going to upload as-is right now. I will also shortly be without access to CIV for up to a month due to a relocation so will likely miss my next couple turnsets. But maybe they can ship stuff faster than they say they can. The good news is I will be back on almost the same time zone as everyone else after I've moved.
A couple of things to note to the next player:
1) The para scouting Ulundi has 2/3 move left - he can enter the galleon and move out of the city threaten zone (2 squares IIRC, of not, then he can get out next turn then). Shaka has no ships to the W that can attack the galleon even if it's attacked by an airship (@Erkon yes hammy did this) You would also want to check to make sure dropping off the para in uMu doesn't prevent the galleon chain from being set up in time.
2) Do not move the rifle from the fort before the airship has rebased unless you are sure ground units cannot attack airships. The units in Odin can hit it same turn and it only has 4str.
3) Again @Erkon - I don't have much familiarity with the AP but don't you have to have SR of the AP religion to either hold the chair or call a vote? And why would Joao call a vote to attack Hammy when they are both same AP religion? Wouldn't he be more likely to call a vote to stop us since we are the Confuzed heathens Anyway maybe it's programmed differently than logic would suggest.
4) As several have noticed the northernmost MW corn needs to be worked by one of the cities. It was worked last turn, I moved MW off it to stop growth when I airlifted the mace to uMu and just didn't reassign it to FF. Although if we are airlifting units from MW for a while we could probably grow MW to 20 and build a cheap cat garrison in Marble to hold the happy permanently. I like that. Although how many happys do we lose in MW when we switch to Rep? Need to consider this too.
5) May want to consider if we can capture Assyrian with the 2 european paras before moving to Stalin. In that case an airship at KT would be helpful in a 1-turn capture and ensuring both paras survive. I think even at D2 a para is <90% against the full-strength H2CG2 lb. Suggest rebasing the fort airship to KT next turn or even better Libyan if in range since that gives sight to Stalin land.
6) @Gnejs - regardless of what we do with Atlantis I suggest blockading it until we have Assyrian unless we give up on that near-term. We do not want another lbw airlifted there. The pop will grow back. Also I'm technically not blockading this turn since I switched the galleons to allow the healthier one to attack the galley next turn.
A couple of things to note to the next player:
1) The para scouting Ulundi has 2/3 move left - he can enter the galleon and move out of the city threaten zone (2 squares IIRC, of not, then he can get out next turn then). Shaka has no ships to the W that can attack the galleon even if it's attacked by an airship (@Erkon yes hammy did this) You would also want to check to make sure dropping off the para in uMu doesn't prevent the galleon chain from being set up in time.
2) Do not move the rifle from the fort before the airship has rebased unless you are sure ground units cannot attack airships. The units in Odin can hit it same turn and it only has 4str.
3) Again @Erkon - I don't have much familiarity with the AP but don't you have to have SR of the AP religion to either hold the chair or call a vote? And why would Joao call a vote to attack Hammy when they are both same AP religion? Wouldn't he be more likely to call a vote to stop us since we are the Confuzed heathens
Anyway maybe it's programmed differently than logic would suggest.4) As several have noticed the northernmost MW corn needs to be worked by one of the cities. It was worked last turn, I moved MW off it to stop growth when I airlifted the mace to uMu and just didn't reassign it to FF. Although if we are airlifting units from MW for a while we could probably grow MW to 20 and build a cheap cat garrison in Marble to hold the happy permanently. I like that. Although how many happys do we lose in MW when we switch to Rep? Need to consider this too.
5) May want to consider if we can capture Assyrian with the 2 european paras before moving to Stalin. In that case an airship at KT would be helpful in a 1-turn capture and ensuring both paras survive. I think even at D2 a para is <90% against the full-strength H2CG2 lb. Suggest rebasing the fort airship to KT next turn or even better Libyan if in range since that gives sight to Stalin land.
6) @Gnejs - regardless of what we do with Atlantis I suggest blockading it until we have Assyrian unless we give up on that near-term. We do not want another lbw airlifted there. The pop will grow back. Also I'm technically
not blockading this turn since I switched the galleons to allow the healthier one to attack the galley next turn.
FiveAces - sorry to hear about RL issues. We will miss your advice.
In other words: GOT IT
To team: please review my war plan, since that has a major impact on builds and unit moves. Workers will improve and cities will be MM'ed as usual.
What to research after Biology? I want State Property and I want Liberalism before the barbs get it.
In other words: GOT IT
To team: please review my war plan, since that has a major impact on builds and unit moves. Workers will improve and cities will be MM'ed as usual.
What to research after Biology? I want State Property and I want Liberalism before the barbs get it.
LowtherCastle
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Erkon, I don't get the long-term rationale for your war plan with Hammi. What good do his pop1-pop4 cities do us on T130?
If we hammer Hammi, the NatPark can be done in Babylon ~T126. If we capture Moscow on T122, the NatPark is done ~T142, maybe a turn or two sooner with poprushing or distant forest chopping. Plus, there's the problem of building all the forest preserves. How much do we gain from having a few more specialists (hopefully--if Stalin isn't busy chopping the living crap out of his forests for Wang Kong) for 14-16t less?
How much WW are we going to have during our Slow-War (aka All-War) Siesta?
Hammering Hammi generates quick research cash and abundant workers for building preserves and pre-Communism workshops.
If we hammer Hammi, the NatPark can be done in Babylon ~T126. If we capture Moscow on T122, the NatPark is done ~T142, maybe a turn or two sooner with poprushing or distant forest chopping. Plus, there's the problem of building all the forest preserves. How much do we gain from having a few more specialists (hopefully--if Stalin isn't busy chopping the living crap out of his forests for Wang Kong) for 14-16t less?
How much WW are we going to have during our Slow-War (aka All-War) Siesta?
Hammering Hammi generates quick research cash and abundant workers for building preserves and pre-Communism workshops.
LowtherCastle
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A couple of points:
C1 only needs one more farm. With +28
counteracting hammer-economy bldgs, it can then work all other tiles improved as workshops under State Property.
FL needs the grass tiles to the rice farmed and one more plains tile for maximum workshop usage under SP.
We have about 11,000 (before-20%-bonus) beakers to the AL slingshot. Then we have another 80,000 to finish. This doesn't include Philo, Feudalism, and PP.
C1 only needs one more farm. With +28
counteracting hammer-economy bldgs, it can then work all other tiles improved as workshops under State Property.FL needs the grass tiles to the rice farmed and one more plains tile for maximum workshop usage under SP.
We have about 11,000 (before-20%-bonus) beakers to the AL slingshot. Then we have another 80,000 to finish. This doesn't include Philo, Feudalism, and PP.
LowtherCastle
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I was under the mistaken impression that we could undo the
by agreeing to a passed resolution, but upon study, I see that's not how it works.But we will be forced to CF or defy Hammi again the next time a resolution comes up. How soon is that on Quick? That's another reason to HAMMER HAMMI !!!!
LC, are you proposing that we skip attacking Stalin?
LowtherCastle
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I'm discussing whether we should divert any paras to Stalin and how many toward Shaka. Apostolic votes come up every 7t in my tests and it looks like Hammi will continue to be the resident until the next resident vote comes up. He was last elected on T102 and if I understand it correctly, the resident vote is every fifth vote. Even this may be conditional, I'm not sure. So we get another vote to end the war on T115, T122, T129, unless there happens to be a resident vote in between, which Joao will win, guaranteed, since he get 2X votes and Hammi wil vote for him.
For the time being, FL is our only Villain city. Next time we defy, Babylon, Dur-K, etc. will get -5
for 20t (less on Quick?).So do we want 10t of peace with Hammi on T116? Defy again? Do we CF on T114 and get a negmod with Joao for redeclaring on Hammi?
Lots to consider.
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