SGOTM 09 - Misfits

Mastiff_of_Ar · Jun 2, 2009

Autolog:

Spoiler :

Mastiff_of_Ar · Jun 2, 2009

Turnset Log:

Spoiler :

Sleepless · Jun 2, 2009

Well done on killing Ham Mastiff :goodjob:

on the turnset as well.

I think it's best if I'm dropped down in the order by 1 until I get this computer working with the HOF MoD. I get an error message before I even start any game. I've tried changing the settings using a different administrator but to be honest I haven't got a clue what I'm doing :lol:

. I'll work it out eventually though.

ChrisFromLux · Jun 2, 2009

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
Well guys, I finished. It's going on midnight here, but I'm going to stay up a bit and give you a good report.

Good turnset, Mastiff, and nice report! :goodjob:

Will take a more detailed look later ...

Mastiff_of_Ar · Jun 2, 2009

Oh oh! We have aluminum in TR and 1N of JH! (Sorry, it was late...)

haphazard1 · Jun 2, 2009

Will have to open the save once I get home from work, but it sounds like the extended discussion paid off with a better plan, and solid execution by Mastiff. Nice work! :goodjob:

Hammi is finished.

Next turn all the WW will vanish, along with the yearning for homeland unhappiness. So the next player will need to recheck all our happiness levels and adjust accordingly.

Speaking of the next player...

Sleepless said:
I think it's best if I'm dropped down in the order by 1 until I get this computer working with the HOF MoD. I get an error message before I even start any game. I've tried changing the settings using a different administrator but to be honest I haven't got a clue what I'm doing . I'll work it out eventually though.

Hope you get it worked out soon, Sleepless. I am still running XP on my elderly computer, and have no plans to upgrade until it dies and I have to get a new machine. I do remember reading something about having to set admin privileges for the HOF mod to work properly -- there is probably a thread somewhere. I will swap you down one spot.

This puts Kale as the player UP! to execute our get-Rocketry-from-HC-then-take-his-capital plan. :lol:

Sleepless is on deck, and hopefully will have his computer issues sorted out soon.

Nice work, Mastiff! :thumbsup:

haphazard1 · Jun 2, 2009

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
Oh oh! We have aluminum in TR and 1N of JH! (Sorry, it was late...)

By JH!

Really?

As I recall, we moved the settler 1S. So we started on aluminum! :crazyeye:

This really does surprise me, that there is no need to expand or go overseas or do anything, really, to get aluminum.

Or maybe we are supposed to conclude that future Pericles knew what he was doing when he went back in time, and picked his destination very carefully. :lol:

Mastiff_of_Ar · Jun 2, 2009

haphazard1 said:
Nice work, Mastiff!

I think I got everything done on the worker list, but I started running out of projects! Workers await in Dur K and Sippar for assignment. I left kind of a mess..

Workers waiting for a new boss and wounded shell-shocked troops!

MF

KaleLambiek · Jun 2, 2009

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
Turn 140 (Inherited)
Turn 150 (-226) The extra turn!

One extra turn?? I thought we were on a 6 to 8 turn rotation? Thats 3-4 turns extra :eek:

We did do a lot of extensive long term discussing, so this extended turnset is not a huge problem... Whats more at first glance... looks like good progress was made and the execution seems pretty good

Hammi dead, Earlier than I had anticipated (was thinking 152/153-ish)
GM safely done his traderoute, though less gold than I had hoped... And perhaps earlier than I had hoped... Might have had him stick around acting as a spy for a few turns...
Medic 3 Morale Healer
HC defences minimal

, our 5 cannons + 9 Troopers will be MORE than enough!
We have aluminium... I hate to say it... so I wont ... But you know it!

Question:
Did you get any chances while moving workers to insert half a turn building a rail anywhere? Did you even consider stopping on move #5 and doing a 1 turn rail?

Some points on the save, please see this as positive... Only/mostly the negatives are mentioned!:
- Happyness
Some of this is probably agrivated by the last city taken, Obsoleting of the Whales etc... But we could have done with a few Odeons, left and right (JH, SdL, LM, IT). Now we wont need them probably for a while... but I think this is the single hardest thing to manage, and probably the biggest problem we have had with this turnset ... I dare say even if a (very) long-ish turnset... :goodjob:

Nicely executing of the plan and some good "winging" moving the settler build, building a boat in BT and probably some other (small?) stuff...
But stopping 2 or 3 turns ago would probably have prevented some/most of this...

- Wand Kong
Yes peace, though not expresely stippulated, what was the problem with the war with WK in the first place??? Lost traderoutes... We still dont have OBs with him and/or we can trade INCENSE AND GOLD from him. That is instant 3 happy faces in most cities!!!!! :cry:

This is DEFINATLY not good!!!! and in extension or at the base of above happyness problem! As it will resolve a lot ...

- Gold / GPT
A lot of gold to be had (selling techs) and some GPT to be gained in (re-) selling some resources.... Nothing to major lost I think... Still every little bit counts

- Settlers
All settlers on land already, one should still have been in the boat to land next turn IMHO, where do we want to plant HC's cities??

- EPs
We are spliting them over HC and Shaka, Do we want WK/Stalin/Joao at some level?

- JH
We are working a 1f/2h/2c preserve over a Cottage!!! This is NOT good
We do have an Aquaduct we didnt have before, I think I would have prefered the Odeon though... And JH grew, that wasnt anticipated :crazyeye:

Good news is Hammi dead = +6 happy back = 2 surplus = delay Odeon, build Coal plant > IPark > Hospital (or something)

- LM
We are short one Merchant, not working the magic 4

- CiB
ACK ! 3 citizens? Poor poor planning, (on my/our part, not yours Mastif!) Odeon/Theatre would have been helpfull probably... How come we have 44 hammers into the Lab already?? With the Factory not done?

- SdL
R&R? Place holder? Or real build?
This is building Apollo right? => Coal plant and pre-builds to get Apollo ASAP.

- BT
Is not working the Cows, all that lovely 2 food and 2 hammers lost!

- Privateer
Why a privateer? Target for any AI out there, why not a Frigate?

- TR
Barracks? Place holder?
Rails on the Aluminium, nice, but what of the mine due SW and 2S of it?? +1 hammer on the Aluminium or +2 and +1 on the other 2 tiles? Only a 1 turn investment for the rails, so might actually be good, but I dont know for sure.

- FH
Should be working the windmill, which just finished...

- Dur K.
I would probably be doing an Engineer, not an Artist... probably Governer at work ?

- Sippar
Should be working the Grass hill windmill that is available to it for some extra beakers.
Hills in general I think instead of coast, while Spy instead of Artist I think?

- Opis
With Akkad gone, work the Wheat for food to grow...

- Babylon
Oh Babylon, what happened to our lovely citizens? They all starved and they definatly not working! They need to work the lazy (*^*&&(@%^*^%#@%^*(()% :aargh:

- Lighthouse
Lighthouses in all of the coastal cities... NICE!

- Killing Hammi
Nice!

- Infra
Lots of infra left in Hammies cities, more than we could have hoped I think...

- Healing
Troopers are healing here and there without the aid of any of our 2 medics, not the Medic 1 XBow, not the Super healer... NOT good. Not catastrophic, but not good...

haphazard1 said:
This puts Kale as the player UP! to execute our get-Rocketry-from-HC-then-take-his-capital plan. Sleepless is on deck, and hopefully will have his computer issues sorted out soon.

Erm,

I cannot be executing this nore can I be held responsible for this freaky plan... No clue why anybody came up with it, it wont work!!!!! :help:

Now as for me planning my set, not going to happen tonight... Not tomorrow and probably not the day after... So that makes it friday already at the earliest, if everyone is OK with that... Should be relatively straight forward set, highlights beeing:
- Trade rocketery with HC accoording to some lunatic city gifting plan (as per team plans despite my objections! :mischief:

)
- Build Gorge in 8 turns from now, using the GE and the forest chops
- Start Apollo
- See if we can fit in some Eifel/R&R build
- Get moving towards Cuzco
- See what cities have benifit from building a Coal plant on their own (very few if any)

JH would build:
Coal plant in 2 turns
Hospital 2 turns
Gorge 4 turns
The hospital should then suply 1) Health needed 2) Generous overflow to Gorge.

Thats about the extend of the planning I can do now and even that I need to check, or if someone can sense check that for me would be good too

Mastiff_of_Ar · Jun 2, 2009

One extra turn?? I thought we were on a 6 to 8 turn rotation? Thats 3-4 turns extra :eek:

I thought we were on 10's! My bad... At least they went fairly well!

We did do a lot of extensive long term discussing, so this extended turnset is not a huge problem... Whats more at first glance... looks like good progress was made and the execution seems pretty good

Hammi dead, Earlier than I had anticipated (was thinking 152/153-ish)
GM safely done his traderoute, though less gold than I had hoped... And perhaps earlier than I had hoped... Might have had him stick around acting as a spy for a few turns...

I really busted butt to wipe him out!

Question:
Did you get any chances while moving workers to insert half a turn building a rail anywhere? Did you even consider stopping on move #5 and doing a 1 turn rail?

Erm... Perhaps a couple on hills where mines might go. I'm not real good at worker turns. :mischief:

Some points on the save, please see this as positive... Only/mostly the negatives are mentioned!:

I don't mind constructive criticism at all!

- Happyness
Some of this is probably agrivated by the last city taken, Obsoleting of the Whales etc... But we could have done with a few Odeons, left and right (JH, SdL, LM, IT). Now we wont need them probably for a while... but I think this is the single hardest thing to manage, and probably the biggest problem we have had with this turnset ... I dare say even if a (very) long-ish turnset... :goodjob:

Nicely executing of the plan and some good "winging" moving the settler build, building a boat in BT and probably some other (small?) stuff...
But stopping 2 or 3 turns ago would probably have prevented some/most of this...

- Wand Kong
Yes peace, though not expresely stippulated, what was the problem with the war with WK in the first place??? Lost traderoutes... We still dont have OBs with him and/or we can trade INCENSE AND GOLD from him. That is instant 3 happy faces in most cities!!!!! :cry:

This is DEFINATLY not good!!!! and in extension or at the base of above happyness problem! As it will resolve a lot ...

He would never OB with me. Of course, wouldn't we get minuses with HC if we trade right now? Once the city trade plan is executed...

- Gold / GPT
A lot of gold to be had (selling techs) and some GPT to be gained in (re-) selling some resources.... Nothing to major lost I think... Still every little bit counts

I had lots to focus on... I should have put it on my plan list. "Check for gold to trade" :blush:

- Settlers
All settlers on land already, one should still have been in the boat to land next turn IMHO, where do we want to plant HC's cities??

We never agreed on that. I'd put them in the best spots for US in case we have to keep them.

- EPs
We are spliting them over HC and Shaka, Do we want WK/Stalin/Joao at some level?

Beats me... But we're a ways away from Stalin and WK.

- JH
We are working a 1f/2h/2c preserve over a Cottage!!! This is NOT good
We do have an Aquaduct we didnt have before, I think I would have prefered the Odeon though... And JH grew, that wasnt anticipated :crazyeye:

I had all the tiles worked! Did the governor get me again? I hate that spy loving jerk... :mad:

Good news is Hammi dead = +6 happy back = 2 surplus = delay Odeon, build Coal plant > IPark > Hospital (or something)

- LM
We are short one Merchant, not working the magic 4

Must have just happened. Governor again.

- CiB
ACK ! 3 citizens? Poor poor planning, (on my/our part, not yours Mastif!) Odeon/Theatre would have been helpfull probably... How come we have 44 hammers into the Lab already?? With the Factory not done?

The lab is my fault... I misread my notes.

- SdL
R&R? Place holder? Or real build?
This is building Apollo right? => Coal plant and pre-builds to get Apollo ASAP.

There are several place holders... no hammers in many builds.

- BT
Is not working the Cows, all that lovely 2 food and 2 hammers lost!

Ah... my fault on this one. It's where the barbs landed.

- Privateer
Why a privateer? Target for any AI out there, why not a Frigate?

Cheaper build. We can stash it in BT... it's just to keep the barbs from being a nuisance.

- TR
Barracks? Place holder?
Rails on the Aluminium, nice, but what of the mine due SW and 2S of it?? +1 hammer on the Aluminium or +2 and +1 on the other 2 tiles? Only a 1 turn investment for the rails, so might actually be good, but I dont know for sure.

Yep. I'm telling you... worker turns are not my forte. MM isn't great, either.

- FH
Should be working the windmill, which just finished...

- Dur K.
I would probably be doing an Engineer, not an Artist... probably Governer at work ?

The little jerk... :mad:

- Sippar
Should be working the Grass hill windmill that is available to it for some extra beakers.
Hills in general I think instead of coast, while Spy instead of Artist I think?

- Opis
With Akkad gone, work the Wheat for food to grow...

- Babylon
Oh Babylon, what happened to our lovely citizens? They all starved and they definatly not working! They need to work the lazy (*^*&&(@%^*^%#@%^*(()% :aargh:

Next turn? Won't they be happy once the AI is gone?

- Lighthouse
Lighthouses in all of the coastal cities... NICE!

Thanks!

- Killing Hammi
Nice!

I enjoyed it myself! Although he did do some unusual things... that why troops are all over the place. He actually tried to counter several times.

- Infra
Lots of infra left in Hammies cities, more than we could have hoped I think...

I was amazed, too.

- Healing
Troopers are healing here and there without the aid of any of our 2 medics, not the Medic 1 XBow, not the Super healer... NOT good. Not catastrophic, but not good...

Well, the war just ended! And many of them still have moves to make!

Erm, :eek:

I cannot be executing this nore can I be held responsible for this freaky plan... No clue why anybody came up with it, it wont work!!!!! :help:

We shall see!

Now as for me planning my set, not going to happen tonight... Not tomorrow and probably not the day after... So that makes it friday already at the earliest, if everyone is OK with that... Should be relatively straight forward set, highlights beeing:
- Trade rocketery with HC accoording to some lunatic city gifting plan (as per team plans despite my objections! :mischief:

)
- Build Gorge in 8 turns from now, using the GE and the forest chops

Why 8 turns? Don't we get plastic in 5?

- Start Apollo
- See if we can fit in some Eifel/R&R build
- Get moving towards Cuzco
- See what cities have benifit from building a Coal plant on their own (very few if any)

JH would build:
Coal plant in 2 turns
Hospital 2 turns
Gorge 4 turns
The hospital should then suply 1) Health needed 2) Generous overflow to Gorge.

Thats about the extend of the planning I can do now and even that I need to check, or if someone can sense check that for me would be good too

haphazard1 · Jun 2, 2009

KaleLambiek said:
Now as for me planning my set, not going to happen tonight... Not tomorrow and probably not the day after... So that makes it friday already at the earliest, if everyone is OK with that... Should be relatively straight forward set, highlights beeing:
- Trade rocketery with HC accoording to some lunatic city gifting plan (as per team plans despite my objections! )
- Build Gorge in 8 turns from now, using the GE and the forest chops
- Start Apollo
- See if we can fit in some Eifel/R&R build
- Get moving towards Cuzco
- See what cities have benifit from building a Coal plant on their own (very few if any)

Thats about the extend of the planning I can do now and even that I need to check, or if someone can sense check that for me would be good too

I see no problems with Friday. Sleepless is still getting his new machine set up, JH is on vacation. So if we skip you it would be all the way to Chris or myself, and I know I could not play before Friday anyway. We need some time for planning, so unless Chris thinks he could plan and play sooner I think you are up.

Several other teams have caught up in game time, and Wonder Bumpkins are even a bit ahead of us. We spent a lot of time on this set, but it went very well overall. As long as we don't take as long with every set, we should be OK.

Speaking of other teams, note the earlier power increases by Murky and X-Team. Hammi getting cruncher a fair bit earlier than we did, probably, although they could be going for Joao or even overseas.

I will try to find time to open the save and post my thoughts. I agree on your main goals for the turnset -- Rocketry if we can get it, Three Gorges, Apollo started, and proceed with the plan to take Cuzco. Lots of MM now that the war is done and we can improve tiles as we choose without fearing for our workers' lives.

Need to check diplo...did Stalin ever actually declare on anyone? He was WHEOOHRN during my turnset.

KaleLambiek · Jun 3, 2009

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
He would never OB with me. Of course, wouldn't we get minuses with HC if we trade right now? Once the city trade plan is executed...

Must admitt, I didnt actually check if OBs was an option, but the 2 resources defenatly are... The diplo with HC I hadnt concidered... OBs I know not to be a problem, techs I know to be a problem... Resources I am never sure...

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
- Settlers
All settlers on land already, one should still have been in the boat to land next turn IMHO, where do we want to plant HC's cities??

We never agreed on that. I'd put them in the best spots for US in case we have to keep them.

How is 2 settlers on one tile good for us? there needs to be a 2 tile gap atleast... So where do we settle these cities. I would say max cottage potential... even if we end up having to keep them, that is what they will be used for I think.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
- Privateer
Why a privateer? Target for any AI out there, why not a Frigate?

Cheaper build. We can stash it in BT... it's just to keep the barbs from being a nuisance.

I think I would have gone with safety and sink a few more hammers into a frigate...
Anyways, hopefully the Privateer will be save (enough) for a while to come... A stray Caravel should not be a problem.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
- Babylon
Oh Babylon, what happened to our lovely citizens? They all starved and they definatly not working! They need to work the lazy (*^*&&(@%^*^%#@%^*(()%

Next turn? Won't they be happy once the AI is gone?

If you look in the babylonian cities it looks like there are citizens missing, there isnt a citizen showing, but none working the land either. Might be due to their motherland disappearing... Some MM to do...

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
- Killing Hammi
Nice!

I enjoyed it myself! Although he did do some unusual things... that why troops are all over the place. He actually tried to counter several times.

Probably due to the underdefended cities... I will try to shuffle some units, get some stronger units on the Joao border if possible, moving the XBows north...

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
- Healing
Troopers are healing here and there without the aid of any of our 2 medics, not the Medic 1 XBow, not the Super healer... NOT good. Not catastrophic, but not good...

Well, the war just ended! And many of them still have moves to make!

Not what I mean, they are actual set to heal... THe movability has nothing to do with it...
I.e. The trooper in Akkad and the one SW of Mari

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
- Build Gorge in 8 turns from now, using the GE and the forest chops

Why 8 turns? Don't we get plastic in 5?

4 actually

But 8 turns is the target to actually FINISH it!
4 turns to start, then complete the build in just 4 turns!!! for a total of 8

KaleLambiek · Jun 3, 2009

haphazard1 said:
Several other teams have caught up in game time, and Wonder Bumpkins are even a bit ahead of us. We spent a lot of time on this set, but it went very well overall. As long as we don't take as long with every set, we should be OK. Speaking of other teams, note the earlier power increases by Murky and X-Team. Hammi getting cruncher a fair bit earlier than we did, probably, although they could be going for Joao or even overseas.

Going for Astro first over Riffling, may have been a mistake if they can keep things afloat without the overseas routes, resources and GPT.

I updated my spreadsheet to our research now, to finish research turn 195 we need to have an average of 1214 beakers per turn. We are actually making 1515 beakers!

Finishing research turn 180 requires an average of 1822 beakers... Thats our new target :eek:

15 turns down! And it may go down more!

The GPP point show minor differences, but nothing catastrophic! We should get our next GP (hopefully artist!) from FH turn 158
GP future:
158 FH (can start 2 GAs regardless of type)
161 CiB (pretty much random, optional to start the second GA here...)
170 CiB (pretty much random)
176 LM (90+% GM ~6/7% GP <3% GE)
181 CiB
185 Babylon
188 FH
194 JH

Now with the 1 GP from FH, we can start 2 GA's.
With the research target now at turn 180, and 3 likely GA's to come (27 turns)... I think we want to start the GA's as soon as possible. We have 5 turns to take Cuzco from Sippar, 3 turns travel to ~tiwanaku, turn #4 land NE of Cuzco, turn #5 take it. Or do we risk Amphibious attack on turn 4? 27 turns of GA basicaly started on turn 160 pulls us into turn 187.
18 turns (2 GAs) from 160 gets us to 178, at which point we have EXACTLY 3 more GPs... They need to be of the RIGHT KIND to be able to start another GA, unless we research Fussion in the first 2 GA's (or Communism)

Given our odds are biggest for a GS in CiB, I am tempted to trigger the first GA with the single GS, leaving us a (near) sure unique GP.

By my calcs Coal > Hospital in JH should overflow a nice 22 base hammers to the Gorge...

SdL 2 turns pre-build Hospital, start Aquaduct build in 2 turns, 1 turn finish Hospital with big overflow, start Appolo. Gives me 5 turns to settle the settlers, get HC to Friendly and trade for Rocketery.
If we want to settle on 'my spots' we need I think 4 turns to get the last city settled... that should work out pretty nicely... and with SdL growing some more pop, to max out the hammers, it will need the health as well...

FYI Stalin is not at war with anyone and doesnt have enough on our hands.

Mastiff_of_Ar · Jun 3, 2009

A couple things:

- The two settlers are on the one tile because I was planning to off load them, then send the galleon back in case it was needed for war. I realized I could not see if barbs were around, but moving it west had little effect, hence, I sent a blimp. The turns should be about the same, maybe one lost, depending on city placement.

- If HC won't accept our cities as gifts... think he'll attack them when we go for Cuzco?

- No clue on the troops. I don't recall setting them to heal, but it was late. I intended to leave any with movement... for the next guy.

- I get it on TGD now, thanks!

haphazard1 · Jun 3, 2009

KaleLambiek said:
Going for Astro first over Riffling, may have been a mistake if they can keep things afloat without the overseas routes, resources and GPT.

The overseas trade routes and resources have been big. Look at the F4 Info screen on how much commerce we are getting from Shaka and Stalin (the overseas AIs with the most cities), plus HC. And the extra happiness, health, and gpt has been important too. Also, Astro earlier allows obs and labs earlier for more beakers per turn.

Rifling earlier could be done, but I don't think it would be worth delaying Astro. Maybe if you did not settle aggressively enough, and Hammi took some of the sites we got -- SdL, Sleeps, TR, GV. Losing all those would be unlikely unless you really got slowed down (maybe by Atlantis barbs, if BT site was settled earlier?). But it would not be unlikely to lose the SdL site if we had been a little slower expanding, and SdL has been a major city for us.

KaleLambiek said:
I updated my spreadsheet to our research now, to finish research turn 195 we need to have an average of 1214 beakers per turn. We are actually making 1515 beakers!

Finishing research turn 180 requires an average of 1822 beakers... Thats our new target 15 turns down! And it may go down more!

Have not opened the save yet, but that bpt is unexpectedly strong.

Add a golden age...180 could be very doable. Do these figures include getting Rocketry from HC (i.e. add a few turns if we can not get it)?

KaleLambiek said:
The GPP point show minor differences, but nothing catastrophic! We should get our next GP (hopefully artist!) from FH turn 158
GP future:
158 FH (can start 2 GAs regardless of type)
161 CiB (pretty much random, optional to start the second GA here...)
170 CiB (pretty much random)
176 LM (90+% GM ~6/7% GP <3% GE)
181 CiB
185 Babylon
188 FH
194 JH

Now with the 1 GP from FH, we can start 2 GA's.

I am a bit confused here. :confused:

2 GAs will require 3 GP, of at least 2 types. FH will provide 1, but where do we get #2 and #3? We are not counting our sleeping GE, are we? With the faster time table, we definitely must have Three Gorges as quickly as we can get it. (8 turns, as per your other reply)

KaleLambiek said:
With the research target now at turn 180, and 3 likely GA's to come (27 turns)... I think we want to start the GA's as soon as possible. We have 5 turns to take Cuzco from Sippar, 3 turns travel to ~tiwanaku, turn #4 land NE of Cuzco, turn #5 take it. Or do we risk Amphibious attack on turn 4? 27 turns of GA basicaly started on turn 160 pulls us into turn 187.
18 turns (2 GAs) from 160 gets us to 178, at which point we have EXACTLY 3 more GPs... They need to be of the RIGHT KIND to be able to start another GA, unless we research Fussion in the first 2 GA's (or Communism)

Given our odds are biggest for a GS in CiB, I am tempted to trigger the first GA with the single GS, leaving us a (near) sure unique GP.

Hmmm. If we can really hit T180 for end of required research (and that is looking more and more likely, especially as towns continue maturing and we get some golden age), then 3 golden ages for 27 turns may actually be overkill. I am estimating we need final research + 5 turns (for final part builds), although a couple extra turns might be needed on the end, depending.

So I agree, we need to start the golden ages very very soon. I think we do wait to capture Cuzco, just in case we get unlucky on GP odds, although triggering the first golden age early for 24 total turns...hmmm. Does not really help, since T180 + 5 turns final parts - 24 turns gives T161. We should have Cuzco by then anyway. If we could somehow get Cuzco a turn or two earlier....

I don't see a way to do it, though. If I am remembering correctly, in BtS siege units can not bombard defenses from aboad ship. So an amphibious attack would mean full culture defenses in Cuzco.

We could choose to sacrifice cannons rather than bombarb with them, but it would be very bloody to save one turn. And we do have to hold the city afterward, against a presumably very upset HC.

KaleLambiek said:
By my calcs Coal > Hospital in JH should overflow a nice 22 base hammers to the Gorge...

SdL 2 turns pre-build Hospital, start Aquaduct build in 2 turns, 1 turn finish Hospital with big overflow, start Appolo. Gives me 5 turns to settle the settlers, get HC to Friendly and trade for Rocketery.
If we want to settle on 'my spots' we need I think 4 turns to get the last city settled... that should work out pretty nicely... and with SdL growing some more pop, to max out the hammers, it will need the health as well...

Sounds good. With the accelerated time table, we definitely need Apollo quickly so we can start the lesser cities building thrusters and other cheap parts. How long will it take to get IW built in Dur-Kur?

KaleLambiek said:
FYI Stalin is not at war with anyone and doesnt have enough on our hands.

Odd. Guess he changed his mind. Must not have been planning to come after us -- AIs never change their minds about attacking the human player once they go WHEOOHRN, even if they become friendly.

KaleLambiek · Jun 3, 2009

These figures include self researching Rocketery, trading it cuts of 2 or 3 turns ultimatly I think. Trading for Rocketery is going to cost us a lot of techs though

but its worth it I think. I will regardsless atleast pauze, perhaps even handover the game at the point that Rocketery becomes available.

We have now, GE, GS and GP sleeping in JH, Counting the GS and GP as well as the one from FH for the first 3. Possibly the first from CiB instead.

Capturing Cuzco can probably be done a little faster, but that may become risky as we take say 3 cannons and 6 Troopers on 6 boats total, 2 times 3 with a chain happening in the middle atleast saving a turn. 3 Cannons and 6 troopers may be cutting it close though. On the screen shot of Mastiff, I count 6 defenders, 4 riffles so we would have to win each and every fight. Plus with only 3 cannons even Accuracy cannons, I dont think we can fully take down the culture (can we?)

HC I categorize as one of the role over AIs, take a city, maybe 2 BANG they are ready to capitulize right away. Hopefully he can keep research good enough to research something semi usefull for us.... Saving another few turns once we Vassaled him...

IW in Dur K. that build is going to be loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong, not figured it out yet, but might be to long/to late... "forcing" us to take it to Sleeps, TR or SdL.

You sure about Stalin? Wasnt it Shaka? He has had enough for the longest time before DoWing Wang

Would like some feedback on where to settle the gifting cities in the mean while... I really dont like packing them together like Mastiff suggested, but dont want to make that call without further oppions.

Global plan will be get Factories up, get Labs up, build +hammers in Babylon perhaps a Lib here or there. Any spare hammers we have "at home" will go to Eifel/R&R

Plus we can do a little something about the GPs, but no more than a little pulling forward some GPs onto turn 180-ish by running 7 specialists in FH for some turns during the GAs. Probably not worth it though...

haphazard1 · Jun 3, 2009

KaleLambiek said:
These figures include self researching Rocketery, trading it cuts of 2 or 3 turns ultimatly I think. Trading for Rocketery is going to cost us a lot of techs though but its worth it I think. I will regardsless atleast pauze, perhaps even handover the game at the point that Rocketery becomes available.

Certainly worth it, I think. It is not like HC is going to beat us to space, even if we give him every tech we have for Rocketry. His production will never keep up with ours. And if we vassalize him, there is little to fear from him. I suppose he could trade away advanced techs to other AIs, but what would they give him in return?

KaleLambiek said:
We have now, GE, GS and GP sleeping in JH, Counting the GS and GP as well as the one from FH for the first 3. Possibly the first from CiB instead.

I had lost track of how many GP we already had sleeping. :crazyeye:

KaleLambiek said:
Capturing Cuzco can probably be done a little faster, but that may become risky as we take say 3 cannons and 6 Troopers on 6 boats total, 2 times 3 with a chain happening in the middle atleast saving a turn. 3 Cannons and 6 troopers may be cutting it close though. On the screen shot of Mastiff, I count 6 defenders, 4 riffles so we would have to win each and every fight. Plus with only 3 cannons even Accuracy cannons, I dont think we can fully take down the culture (can we?)

Very risky...too risky, I think. And we do not have hammers/time to build frigates to reduce the culture.

The question becomes, if we can get Rocketry in trade and shave even a few more turns off the T180 research target...does it make sense to trigger the first golden age without the MoM?

We would get 24 turns of golden age instead of 27. But "extra" golden age turns after we launch the ship have no real value; only turns which contribute to teching or building SS parts have value.

If we capture Cuzco on T160 and then trigger our golden ages, they will last through T186 (inclusive). If we can build the final part(s) in 5 turns after finishing the last needed tech, and we finish the last tech on T180, we have "wasted" one turn of golden age.

If we actually finish research earlier than T180 (by trading Rocketry, getting more beakers than expected, etc.), then we waste more turns of GA.

But if we trigger the first golden age before taking Cuzco, and get 24 total turns of golden age, we get the benefits of golden age sooner and maybe finish sooner...as long as our golden age does not run out too early. We have to determine (guess) when we will finish that final tech, and whether 5 turns after is correct for building the final part(s). If we can save 3 turns from Rocketry and 1 more turn from faster-than-expected research, we get:

T180 (target) - (3 + 1) turns saved = T176 + (5) turns to buid parts = T181 - 24 turns golden age = T157 to start the first (non-MoM) golden age.

If we really can get Rocketry in trade, and the earlier golden age boost beakers enough to save a little more...we may want to start our first golden age without MoM. But my example above is just an example -- we need to be truly certain we are not starting the golden age too early, or we will lose the boosted hammers before finishing all the parts.

KaleLambiek said:
HC I categorize as one of the role over AIs, take a city, maybe 2 BANG they are ready to capitulize right away. Hopefully he can keep research good enough to research something semi usefull for us.... Saving another few turns once we Vassaled him...

Maybe we could ask him to start teching Fission? If we are going to leave that until near the end? Maybe we should gift/trade the techs needed for him to research what we think is best for us?

Of course, without his capital, I don't know how well he will be teching. :satan:

So maybe it will not matter at all?

Also re vassalizing him...good thing we are gifting those cities early, or he could expand into the empty land and break free. If the AI even "thinks" in those terms.

KaleLambiek said:
IW in Dur K. that build is going to be loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong, not figured it out yet, but might be to long/to late... "forcing" us to take it to Sleeps, TR or SdL.

If we are really thinking we can launch by early T180's...less than 35 turns from now

eek

...do we really need more military from Sleeps? Maybe we just go ahead and put the IW there, starting ASAP? If we can get it done in Dur-Kur in time, great -- we can build some more military to grab cash by conquering Joao's cities. But finishing the SS parts has to take priority.

KaleLambiek said:
You sure about Stalin? Wasnt it Shaka? He has had enough for the longest time before DoWing Wang

It was definitely Stalin. This was one of the reasons I accepted Shaka's request to DOW WK -- WK was the only civ Stalin was annoyed with, so I figured Stalin was going to declare within a few turns anyway and we would avoid diplo penalties with both Shaka and Stalin. Was still a mistake to DOW WK, but that was what I was thinking at the time since there had just been some discussion of avoiding the diplo penalties we would get for trading with WK. Avoiding "refused help during war time" penalties seemed to be equally worthwhile. Oh well...can't change it now, but a big screw-up on my part.

KaleLambiek said:
Would like some feedback on where to settle the gifting cities in the mean while... I really dont like packing them together like Mastiff suggested, but dont want to make that call without further oppions.

I need to open the save and see exactly where they are now. Hopefully tonight.

KaleLambiek said:
Global plan will be get Factories up, get Labs up, build +hammers in Babylon perhaps a Lib here or there. Any spare hammers we have "at home" will go to Eifel/R&R

Plus we can do a little something about the GPs, but no more than a little pulling forward some GPs onto turn 180-ish by running 7 specialists in FH for some turns during the GAs. Probably not worth it though...

As long as we get enough GPs for our three golden ages. If absolutely necessary, we can research Communism for a GSpy. Fusion GE is presumably too late for triggering the third golden age.

Mastiff_of_Ar · Jun 3, 2009

How will we hold Cuzco with all the culture surrounding it? Will we have to take more cities? I think it'll revolt fairly quickly, no?

KaleLambiek · Jun 4, 2009

Guestimate at IW in Dur K.
2 turns left of the Levee
5 turns factory
18 base hammers now, + 9 Levee hammers + 2 hammers from adding a pop = 29 hammers
167 / (29 + 25%) = 167 / 36 = 4.6 = 5 turns

In 7 turns hopefully we are 1 turn from completing Gorge:
1 turn at 32 base hammers (slowly growing) + 50% = 48 hammers leaving 469 - 48 - 12 (overflow) = 409 hammers on IW
Complete IW in
- 7 turns on an average of 29.21 base hammers
- 6 turns on an average of 34.08 base hammers

7 turns is pretty much guaranteed, so
2 turns levee + 5 turns Factory + 1 turn powerless + 7 turns to finish it = 15 turns

Then again Apollo at 1072 is going to take some building too. Assuming full power etc...
SdL or TR are hammering out ~30 hammers at the moment. This may increase somewhat.... but not HUGE.
Lets assume 32 base hammers at +200% (power + Aluminium) = 96 hammers.
It is going to take 1072 / 96 = 11.16 turns to build Apollo.

Actually a bit more as we wont have power from the start, an alternative could be to not build Aqua/Hospital, but rather build a Coal plant. This causes 2 unhealthy (which go away with Gorge right?)
Coal plant is a 2 turn 100 hammer project. For which we gain 15 hammers (50% of 30).
At best we gain 15 * 6 hammers = 90 hammers. However we gain them towards Apollo, which is an important project.
Lets assume it takes 4 turns to get Rocketery. So
4 turns powerless (31 + 100% alu + 50% factory) = 77 per turn = 308 Leaves 764
Then finish Apollo at (32 + 200%) = 96 hammers per turn 764 / 96 = 7.96 turns (4 + 8 = 12 turns, not 11, + 4 turns to start it = 16, not 15, turns from now Apollo done)

Now add power to the 4 turns for 4 * 15 hammers = 60 hammers leaving 704 / 96 = 7.3333 turns If we can find some 11 base hammers that is reduced to 7 turns for a turn saved towards space if we can take that forward by finishing all parts one turn earlier.
11 base hammers overflow or extra production from someplace (i.e. Replace a windmill by a mine + rail for +2 hammers per turn). Minimal overflow + the mine is pretty doable... And the turn, dont know if we can pull that thru, but there is no reversing it if we dont do it... so I guess we should go for it.

So that gives us Apollo and IW just about on the same turn... about 15 turns from now. NOT accounting for GA turns

Some rough guestimates without detailed power calculations which will speed this up.
LM needs a factory = 15 turns
Sleeps Obs 2 > Odeon 1 > Lab 2 > Aquaduct 1 for 6 turns (leaving 9 for "other" builds, i.e. Eiffel or R&R)
CiB Factory 1 > Lab 6 > IPark 6 (or reverse IPark and Lab for more GPP?) 13 turns
The extra GPP pulls forward the turn 181 GP from CiB to 179, not huge but ... something. By working some additional (starving) GP turns we can pull that to turn 178.
IT Factory 1 > Coal plant 5 > Lighthouse 2 > IPark 5 (or something like that) getting close to 15 already
BT Levee 3 > lighthouse 2 > Obs 4 > Lab 7 again going on 15 (missing IPark)
TR needs Levee > Obs > Lab for 3/3/4 = 10 turn build perhaps IPark? Eifel/R&R?
FH if we run 7 specialists (add engineer with the Forge completing) we can pull that GP forwards to turn 182 instead of 188, probably inconsequential though... Any builds here will not really help as we wont have time I think to finish any needed infra (factory > Lab) to really build any parts here.
GV Factory 1 > Obs 6 > Lab 10 for 17 turns
Dur K. Levee > Factory > IW 15 turns
Sippar Forge > Factory > Gold
Babylon Courthouse > FP 7 turns total > Factory > build gold?

Hey thats pretty much a turnset plan

what do you think?

Meanwhile time workers to chop them forests around JH into Gorge while railing/improving along the way where possible.
Mine/Rail around Sippar, SdL and TR
Workshops (if possible) at FH
Preserve near Sleeps and start some turns towards Lumbermills.

Research
Plastics > Computers > Fiber Optics > Fission > Fussion for 4/4/6/3/6
Delaying Fission as long as possible, perhaps use a GS or trade from HC if possible.

We do need Satalites soon, but not before trading Rocketery from HC.
Ecology is the last tech we research for the cheapest part...
Satelites > Composits > Fission > Genetics > Ecology ??? Does that sound about right?

edit:
Above is not compensate for cities comming out of revolt or GA hammers/Power hammers/ GA Commerce/beakers.
And/or Overflow beakers/hammers.

Sleepless · Jun 4, 2009

Still problems I'm afraid.

I can play the game ok.

Just can't submit HOF games.

I'll try again this weekend and see how it goes.

SGOTM 09 - Misfits

In his Element

In his Element

Deity

former 'Misfit'

In his Element

Dancing Bear

Dancing Bear

In his Element

Prince

In his Element

Dancing Bear

Prince

Prince

In his Element

Dancing Bear

Prince

Dancing Bear

In his Element

Prince

Deity

Similar threads