Does a seperate "self" exist independent of it's space & time?

Narz said:

The idea that ideas exist on another plain as reality is pure delusion, IMO. An idea must necessarily be transmitted thru a physical means or it is lost. Ideas are dependent on physical structure (whether it be a human brain, a stone tablet or a CD) to survive. They have no independence from physical form, they spring from it and must be maintained within it. IMO, the whole concept of ideas having a magical life outside of reality is just another excuse humans use to feel superior to the natural world & to worship their own abstract constructs above the living physical world. It's as supernatural as belief in a bearded deity as just as dangerous (perhaps more so because it's so unquestioned).

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1+1=2. Remove space and time and it is still so. Why? It's an idea, and by definition not bound by space and time. The knowledge of that idea may disappear without observers, but the idea itself still exists on a 'plane' of its own (for the lack of a better word).

aelf said:

Yet I apprehend ideas without the need for physical forms.

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Your brain is physical form.

aelf said:

And are you ready to bite the bullet and say that you can touch, see, smell, hear or taste ideas?

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Of course. You've never dreamt?

aelf said:

I have trouble connecting the belief that ideas exist outside space and time with religion. It just seems a total stretch. I don't even think this crosses into a discussion on substances.

I also don't think that the abstract is comparable to the physical, so I don't think one is better than the other.

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The abstract is merely our mental machine's ability to alter the physical within itself.

aelf said:

I don't understand how it's superstition. I don't even consider this an important question. Ideas have properties that are different from material things, that much is obvious. I must say this is the first time I hear people unequivocally describe ideas as material things. That's pure delusion.

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Suppose you're right. Suppose (feel free to take issue with the way I word this) that ideas are not features of the physical world. Then, how on earth do human minds grasp ideas, and how is it that ideas influence our actions - including the physical movement of our muscles?

I'm not saying it's impossible. But it does seem like a big challenge to explain how it might be possible.

Narz said:

Your brain is physical form.

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So my brain is an idea?

Narz said:

Of course. You've never dreamt?

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So ideas are dreams?

Narz said:

The abstract is merely our mental machine's ability to alter the physical within itself.

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This sounds more like a superstition than anything I've said.

Ayatollah So said:

Suppose you're right. Suppose (feel free to take issue with the way I word this) that ideas are not features of the physical world. Then, how on earth do human minds grasp ideas, and how is it that ideas influence our actions - including the physical movement of our muscles?

I'm not saying it's impossible. But it does seem like a big challenge to explain how it might be possible.

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Are you trying to discuss substances? I'm not very good at that, but I don't think this really has to do with substances anyway.

If you're not, then I'm not sure what you mean by saying ideas influence our actions. I don't think they have a direct influence on our actions. Ideas don't directly command me to walk somewhere. My brain does that.

Narz, we experience ideas as approximations. The stuff in your brain isn't the actual idea. The actual idea doesn't actually "exist".

warpus said:

Narz, we experience ideas as approximations. The stuff in your brain isn't the actual idea. The actual idea doesn't actually "exist".

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Do intangible things exist? I can think of a perfect circle in my mind, even though it is to be found nowhere in nature, and it can never be manufactured. The *idea* of a perfect circle would still be there even if no human had ever thought about it. I'd say that physical existence is not the only form of existence there is...

Greizer85 said:

Do intangible things exist? I can think of a perfect circle in my mind, even though it is to be found nowhere in nature, and it can never be manufactured. The *idea* of a perfect circle would still be there even if no human had ever thought about it. I'd say that physical existence is not the only form of existence there is...

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I suppose it depends on your definition of "existence".

I think a buncha ancient greeks had the exact same discussion, btw. I think they even had a couple reasonable conclusions.

aelf said:

So my brain is an idea?

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You brain processes ideas.

aelf said:

So ideas are dreams?

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You asked if I can see, smell, taste an idea. I certainly can, dreams are one example, daydreams are another. Ideas (from the mind) activate our physical senses. If I mentioned a person you hated your body would up it's adernaline. I mention your favorite food & you will start salivating.

aelf said:

This sounds more like a superstition than anything I've said.

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Really. It seems like common sense to me.

warpus said:

Narz, we experience ideas as approximations. The stuff in your brain isn't the actual idea. The actual idea doesn't actually "exist".

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Right. Ideas don't exist in a magical land, they don't really exist at all save in our brains.

Greizer85 said:

Do intangible things exist?

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Once they are thought of they become tangible (are put onto paper on silicon, told to another, painted, recorded, etc.) or they disappear, sometimes forever. What good is an idea no one knows about? Ideas are only of value if they influence reality in some way. Philosophers who think the physical world exists to serve "the idea world" have it backwards.

Greizer85 said:

I can think of a perfect circle in my mind, even though it is to be found nowhere in nature, and it can never be manufactured. The *idea* of a perfect circle would still be there even if no human had ever thought about it. I'd say that physical existence is not the only form of existence there is...

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The idea of a perfect circle is inspired by the physical world even though it can never exist in the physical world. The mind's ability to imagine things that have never before existed & may never exist is truly amazing but we still must get our inspiration from the physical world.

Narz said:

You brain processes ideas.

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And that makes ideas physical, how?

Narz said:

You asked if I can see, smell, taste an idea. I certainly can, dreams are one example, daydreams are another. Ideas (from the mind) activate our physical senses. If I mentioned a person you hated your body would up it's adernaline. I mention your favorite food & you will start salivating.

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What does justice taste like to you? I can't figure out myself.

Narz said:

Really. It seems like common sense to me.

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Sounds like some kind of paganism to me.

Narz said:

Once they are thought of they become tangible (are put onto paper on silicon, told to another, painted, recorded, etc.) or they disappear, sometimes forever. What good is an idea no one knows about? Ideas are only of value if they influence reality in some way. Philosophers who think the physical world exists to serve "the idea world" have it backwards.

The idea of a perfect circle is inspired by the physical world even though it can never exist in the physical world. The mind's ability to imagine things that have never before existed & may never exist is truly amazing but we still must get our inspiration from the physical world.

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There are an infinite number of ideas, but we can only think about those which are somehow connected to perceivable reality because, well, that is what we perceive, that is where we must start our thinking process.

I agree that an idea that no one ever thinks about, or in some cases one that is lost to observers, is a useless one for us humans. But it still exists on the plane of ideas. Its just semantics really - what exists and what does not? It hasn't got much bearing on rw events, but then many philosophical thingies do not.

@aelf: I like my justice served cold with a nice slice of lemon and just a touch of ginger & coercion; really gives it that edge that it needs.

aelf said:

And that makes ideas physical, how?

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Your brain can only imagine ideas that are within it's physical limitations to imagine. A deaf (deaf from birth) man cannot conjure musical ideas because he lacks the sensory organs to imagine such things.

aelf said:

What does justice taste like to you? I can't figure out myself.

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What color is pain? What does success smell like? Why does the cage bird sing?

On a serious note - revenge is sweet, disappointment is bitter. Ideas only can exist because of our human senses. Without our senses or the sensuous world ideas would be impossible to construct or explain.

aelf said:

Sounds like some kind of paganism to me.

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Don't know much about it but probably paganism has some similar ideas.

Greizer85 said:

I agree that an idea that no one ever thinks about, or in some cases one that is lost to observers, is a useless one for us humans. But it still exists on the plane of ideas. Its just semantics really - what exists and what does not? It hasn't got much bearing on rw events, but then many philosophical thingies do not.

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I think we're on the same page.

aelf said:

Just because ideas are derived from the spatial-temporal world doesn't mean they exist within space and time. There's no reason to believe so. And, IMO, all your arguments fail for one simple reason - do ideas obey the laws of physics?

Ideas are not tangible, sorry.

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Of course ideas obey the laws of physics. They only exist within our imagination bound to a world of laws of physics.

aelf said:

Yet I apprehend ideas without the need for physical forms.

And are you ready to bite the bullet and say that you can touch, see, smell, hear or taste ideas?

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And again, your brain thinks wrong. The problem is that you trick yourself to believe that if you have the idea of yourself flying (Physically impossible in its purest natural form), you are suddenly within the grasp of something out of this world. The idea of flying is bound to this world, as flying itself is within the materialistic view of reality - difficulties to explain aside, the very idea of you being able to fly isn't abstract. You recognize birds flying and put that idea together with your own. That doesn't create some new magical nonexistant dimension that has abstract inhabitants of human thoughts. Human thoughts are bound to reality, since they derive from reality.

If an idea is omnipresent, why does your mind have the freedom to make it up? You are romantisizing the idea of the human mind, promoting that thoughts, bound to numbers and chemicals, can comprehend the zero and the infinite. Remember that no matter how big a number you can think of, you will never get near the horizontal eight. Flying is a good example of this; no, it can't be done in the physical form, but it is a physical imagination, bound to your sensations from the real world - you imagine touching, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting. Vague sensations are pathetic when compared to the nonexistant infinite - saying that petty human physical ideas make up the infinite aether is like saying there are angels in heaven.

If you didn't catch where we disagree, I'll note you that in your world view, the physical world is what you sense, and the aether is what we imagine, and that the aether has makeup from reality. That just doesn't make it when realizing this world is numbers, chemicals, and that all laws are defined in some way. The aether is instead what laws this world doesn't follow, it is there while it isn't, the actual truth of the abstract aether is that it isn't from this world, it is nonexistant while everywhere. Our mind can attemp to comprehend the idea of another plane, but we fail to realize it isn't there - or, at least, is unreachable for us since the aether isn't chaos but still is, and isn't logical by our standards.

EDIT:

Narz said:

Your brain can only imagine ideas that are within it's physical limitations to imagine. A deaf (deaf from birth) man cannot conjure musical ideas because he lacks the sensory organs to imagine such things.

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This made it much clearer than my whole post. Thanks Narz. xD

warpus said:

They can't do that yet, but that doesn't mean that they won't be able to do so in the future.

After all, our brains are just biological machines. There's no reason we won't be able to build machines, at some point in the future, to duplicate our ability to "come up with new ideas". (which we never truly do, any new idea is just a repackaging of something else that already exists)

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Narz said:

Name one idea that is not quantifiable.

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Atlantis, the icon idea. Didn't exist before Plato thought of it. Very powerful idea through the ages, yet completely "immaterial"; it only takes up space (and time) in visual form - printed or otherwise. (I'd like to see a computer come up with such a coherent idea. The point is: computers do not think; they combine input and calculate "solutions". An idea is not necessarily a solution to a problem; in fact, an idea may create a problem. In other words: a computer cannot think outside the box.)

lord_joakim said:

Of course ideas obey the laws of physics. They only exist within our imagination bound to a world of laws of physics.

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That depends on the person; imaginative people can come up with ideas much like in a dream state - the idea/dream may have little relation with reality. (In fact, what exists prior to the visual dream or formulated idea is probably what matters most here: the notion.) Also, the fact that we necessarily follow the laws of physics - which, BTW, are never absolute laws - does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that ideas must.

Narz said:

Your brain can only imagine ideas that are within it's physical limitations to imagine. A deaf (deaf from birth) man cannot conjure musical ideas because he lacks the sensory organs to imagine such things.

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Bad example: sound is vibration; many "deaf" people can sense it. Also, deaf people can very well come up with musical ideas.

JEELEN said:

Atlantis, the icon idea. Didn't exist before Plato thought of it. Very powerful idea through the ages, yet completely "immaterial"; it only takes up space (and time) in visual form - printed or otherwise. (I'd like to see a computer come up with such a coherent idea. The point is: computers do not think; they combine input and calculate "solutions". An idea is not necessarily a solution to a problem; in fact, an idea may create a problem. In other words: a computer cannot think outside the box.)

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Men live on lands. Imagining other lands is not so much of a stretch. I'm not going to get into the man vs. machine debate. And yes, of course men create stories to present themselves with problems/challenges. It's one of the principle ways to motivate oneself (or others).

JEELEN said:

That depends on the person; imaginative people can come up with ideas much like in a dream state - the idea/dream may have little relation with reality. (In fact, what exists prior to the visual dream or formulated idea is probably what matters most here: the notion.) Also, the fact that we necessarily follow the laws of physics - which, BTW, are never absolute laws - does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that ideas must.

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Just because the brain is far too complex to understand fully at present doesn't mean it occupies a magical realm outside of the laws of physics, just that we don't understand everything that is going on within it yet.

JEELEN said:

Bad example: sound is vibration; many "deaf" people can sense it. Also, deaf people can very well come up with musical ideas.

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Perhaps, I should have used blindness & color instead.

My point is that all ideas have roots in the physical world. Salvidore Dali can paint pictures that defy natural laws but had her never seen a hand, a clock or a face he could not have combined them. Creativity is putting things together in new ways, not creating something out of nothing.

Narz said:

Your brain can only imagine ideas that are within it's physical limitations to imagine. A deaf (deaf from birth) man cannot conjure musical ideas because he lacks the sensory organs to imagine such things.

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I don't think anyone is disputing that ideas exist within the context of the material world and our experience of it. One may, but I don't think anyone here is doing that. That, however, is far from saying that ideas are physical, which is a loony thought.

Narz said:

What color is pain? What does success smell like? Why does the cage bird sing?

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Huh?

Narz said:

On a serious note - revenge is sweet, disappointment is bitter. Ideas only can exist because of our human senses. Without our senses or the sensuous world ideas would be impossible to construct or explain.

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Are you really taking such descriptives literally? Because if you do, you're the one romantisizing.

lord_joakim said:

Of course ideas obey the laws of physics. They only exist within our imagination bound to a world of laws of physics.

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What?

Come on, folks, let's give justice a push with our hands. Need to overcome the inertia.

lord_joakim said:

And again, your brain thinks wrong. The problem is that you trick yourself to believe that if you have the idea of yourself flying (Physically impossible in its purest natural form), you are suddenly within the grasp of something out of this world. The idea of flying is bound to this world, as flying itself is within the materialistic view of reality - difficulties to explain aside, the very idea of you being able to fly isn't abstract. You recognize birds flying and put that idea together with your own. That doesn't create some new magical nonexistant dimension that has abstract inhabitants of human thoughts. Human thoughts are bound to reality, since they derive from reality.

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Yeah, I can agree that ideas are derived from 'material reality' or whatever. That doesn't mean that ideas are material or that they are bound by space and time.

lord_joakim said:

If an idea is omnipresent, why does your mind have the freedom to make it up? You are romantisizing the idea of the human mind, promoting that thoughts, bound to numbers and chemicals, can comprehend the zero and the infinite. Remember that no matter how big a number you can think of, you will never get near the horizontal eight. Flying is a good example of this; no, it can't be done in the physical form, but it is a physical imagination, bound to your sensations from the real world - you imagine touching, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting. Vague sensations are pathetic when compared to the nonexistant infinite - saying that petty human physical ideas make up the infinite aether is like saying there are angels in heaven.

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Funny that you should keep raising the subject of religion/superstition. I'm not the one making things up here.

lord_joakim said:

If you didn't catch where we disagree, I'll note you that in your world view, the physical world is what you sense, and the aether is what we imagine, and that the aether has makeup from reality. That just doesn't make it when realizing this world is numbers, chemicals, and that all laws are defined in some way. The aether is instead what laws this world doesn't follow, it is there while it isn't, the actual truth of the abstract aether is that it isn't from this world, it is nonexistant while everywhere. Our mind can attemp to comprehend the idea of another plane, but we fail to realize it isn't there - or, at least, is unreachable for us since the aether isn't chaos but still is, and isn't logical by our standards.

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I don't understand any of this. I think you just invented my view for me. Is a strawman a physical thing? How does it feel? Good?

JEELEN said:

That depends on the person; imaginative people can come up with ideas much like in a dream state - the idea/dream may have little relation with reality. (In fact, what exists prior to the visual dream or formulated idea is probably what matters most here: the notion.) Also, the fact that we necessarily follow the laws of physics - which, BTW, are never absolute laws - does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that ideas must.

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Tell me who can imagine a world with nonexistant colours, or better, a world where colours, brightness and contrast are nonexistant while the world is the same. And no, that does not mean total darkness.

Also, I don't want to repeat myself. Ideas consist of elements only from our world. They aren't otherworldy.

lord_joakim said:

Also, I don't want to repeat myself. Ideas consist of elements only from our world.

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How many hydrogen atoms are in one molecule of justice?

aelf said:

What?

Come on, folks, let's give justice a push with our hands. Need to overcome the inertia.

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Completely disregarding the remainder of my post doesn't leave you right when counterarguments are present in the part disregarded. Also, I think you seem to have lacked an argument in one of my earlier posts (Against you to boot I think) that I don't care to reproduce right now. Read my posts in this thread if you want, you might understand I feel your concern for the GREATNESS of the human mind.

Yeah, I can agree that ideas are derived from 'material reality' or whatever. That doesn't mean that ideas are material or that they are bound by space and time.

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Ideas aren't nonexistant or infinite. They're chemicals.

Funny that you should keep raising the subject of religion/superstition. I'm not the one making things up here.

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No I'm not raising the subject about religion/superstition, I'm saying why you are wrong. Get to the point, goddamit, answer to the whole post instead of a line. With this, I'm just as right as you. I'm just saying there are no spiritual brain realm while you seem to do so. At least the realm is part of reality.

I don't understand any of this. I think you just invented my view for me. Is a strawman a physical thing? How does it feel? Good?

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Me no get machine. Me smash machine, then me get it. Or, 'I don't get it, therefore you must be wrong.'

Also, in short, you seem to think the mind is apart from our body, which is untrue.

aelf said:

How many hydrogen atoms are in one molecule of justice?

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Completely disregarding your bluntness, just note that I'll be happy to speak with you when you begin understanding what I mean instead of using bad rhethoric that doesn't convince anyone anyways.

lord_joakim said:

Completely disregarding the remainder of my post doesn't leave you right when counterarguments are present in the part disregarded. Also, I think you seem to have lacked an argument in one of my earlier posts (Against you to boot I think) that I don't care to reproduce right now. Read my posts in this thread if you want, you might understand I feel your concern for the GREATNESS of the human mind.

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Actually, I have a rather dim view of the human mind. So I don't understand why you keep going off on rants about stuff that I never said. What am I supposed to say in reply? Are you even sure you're talking to me? Hello...?

Houston, we have a problem...

lord_joakim said:

Ideas aren't nonexistant or infinite. They're chemicals.

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Ah, there you are.

I'd like to know the chemical composition of justice, please.

lord_joakim said:

No I'm not raising the subject about religion/superstition, I'm saying why you are wrong. Get to the point, goddamit, answer to the whole post instead of a line. With this, I'm just as right as you. I'm just saying there are no spiritual brain realm while you seem to do so. At least the realm is part of reality.

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How did I do so?

I can't really reply much if I don't know what to make of most of what you're saying.

lord_joakim said:

Me no get machine. Me smash machine, then me get it. Or, 'I don't get it, therefore you must be wrong.'

Also, in short, you seem to think the mind is apart from our body, which is untrue.

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Actually, I made no such assumption. So your assumption that I'm just stupid and can't argue with you is really funny.

lord_joakim said:

Completely disregarding your bluntness, just note that I'll be happy to speak with you when you begin understanding what I mean instead of using bad rhethoric that doesn't convince anyone anyways.

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Sure. Laters, Mr. "spiritual realm".


PS: If you want to make claims, be sure your claims stand up to the simplest of questioning.