Religion redesign

@ Ahriman, redirecting from the modpack thread around post #125. You mentioned that you were going to experiment with the missionary spread rate and perhaps the prerequisite tech for religions. I am working on the forbidden religion feature but it is a little painful. As a change of pace, I thought I would go through and update the unit names and building names and building art for the religions to match the design. This will involve changing file Civ4ReligionInfos.xml.

If you have also changed this file, it will be a little complicated to merge. (Not impossible, just complicated.) Have you changed this file, or do you plan to change it in the next couple of days? If you have a version you like, it would be helpful if you post just that file, or PM it to me. This will keep our local versions mostly in sync.

I did tweak the file (attached), but haven't tested it significantly; I can't really tune the spread rates without some of the python spread features (like: automatically spreads to a conquered city, automatically removed when another religion is spread to the city, automatically spread to a newly founded city, etc.)

It was only 5 mins of work, so I don't mind redoing it at a later stage.

Did the leaderhead =-100 thing not work out for blocking religions?

Ahriman said:

Did the leaderhead =-100 thing not work out for blocking religions?

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I appreciate the suggestions from the warhammer team. But the feature you/they were mentioning is only part of FF. It is not part of base civ. From the description it does not seem that this prevents the human player from converting, which is a key part of your design.

Since I have already mostly implemented the forbidden civ code, I will not try to separate out this piece from FF.

Ahriman said:

I can't really tune the spread rates without some of the python spread features (like: automatically spreads to a conquered city, automatically removed when another religion is spread to the city, automatically spread to a newly founded city, etc.)

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I have thought about that and it is still a little challenging. For example, "automatically removed when another religion appears". This means that when the religion spreads along trade routes, it cannot enter a city with another religion. It also means that a missionary who tries to spread it in a city with another religion will automatically fail. It also means that the AI must not try to send a missionary to a city, where it knows the spread will fail; or else it will keep sending missionaries there in a steady stream.

Don't forget the theocracy effect, which prevents the religion spreading.
Maybe you can hijack this somehow.

For example, "automatically removed when another religion appears". This means that when the religion spreads along trade routes, it cannot enter a city with another religion. It also means that a missionary who tries to spread it in a city with another religion will automatically fail.

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This was not my intention.

So, this feature was in Imperium religion. My design intention was:

1. Imperium religion is present in a city. Another religion arrives: imperium gets removed.
2. Another religion is present in a city. Imperium arrives; imperium stays, the city has 2 religions.

So my intention was that when a new religion was added *on top of* imperium, it would be removed, but that this would not be the same as imperium being added on top of another religion.

Also: it was implied by some of the stuff on religion spread that trade-route spread doesn't happen once a religion is already in a city.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4072270&postcount=4

If a city already has religion, doReligion is does nothing.

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I'm not sure if this is true though.

Maybe it would be sufficient for Imperium to be removed if another religion was added to that city *by missionary*.

The intention was for Imperium to be a religion that would spread widely in the early game, but then would be superseded by conquest or the late-game religions.

This was intended both to capture the status quo -> new ideas superseding it theme, and be a mechanic that would make "late" game religions worth pursuing (in vanilla civ and in most mods the late-game religions are generally not worth pursuing or adopting at all, because the early game ones have spread far and wide beforehand).

Ahriman said:

So, this feature was in Imperium religion. My design intention was:
1. Imperium religion is present in a city. Another religion arrives: imperium gets removed.
2. Another religion is present in a city. Imperium arrives; imperium stays, the city has 2 religions.

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This is identical to spread of Tleilaxu plague. If the game removes Imperium from a city, but Imperium is present in an adjacent city, the game will spread Imperium back to the first city unless we add code to prevent that. You would see that at best, Imperium temporarily disappears from a city for a few turns. I don't believe that captures the behavior you wanted.

Unless the code has been modified, religions do not spread to cities with another religion.
Unless a missionary is involved, of course.

You guys clearly need to play the game (plain old as shipped, or only lightly moded) more!

Perhaps I have never noticed this. Many times I have cities with multiple religions after no action on my part. You are saying this can only happen due to a missionary "attack"? That certainly removes the need for one part of the project. Still, for the case of a "weak" religion, I assume a missionary attempting to spread this religion into a city with any religions should automatically fail, and therefore the AI should never send missionaries where it knows they will fail.

If the game removes Imperium from a city, but Imperium is present in an adjacent city, the game will spread Imperium back to the first city unless we add code to prevent that. You would see that at best, Imperium temporarily disappears from a city for a few turns.

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Unless the code has been modified, religions do not spread to cities with another religion.

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This was what I thought, from the "doReligion does nothing" comment. So I thought that the Imperium religion would *not* disappear temporarily; the new religion arrived, so the only way to get Imperium back would be with a missionary.

Still, for the case of a "weak" religion, I assume a missionary attempting to spread this religion into a city with any religions should automatically fail, and therefore the AI should never send missionaries where it knows they will fail.

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Imperium is not supposed to be a "weak" religion, it is supposed to be an "easily supplanted" religion. Is there a parameter that controls missionary spread chance for a particular religion? Maybe we could tweak it down slightly.

I'd leave the AI missionary behavior untouched, its probably fine.

My fear I suppose is that you could have the early spread of Imperium from the shrine, have everyone adopt Imperium, and then even as other religions spread through them, the AIs would instantly replace Imperium in their own cities with missionaries (because AIs spread their state religion).
And my fear at the other end is that Imperium could be displaced too easily.
It will take some playtest, I guess.

In post 37 (text) and post 38 (spreadsheet) we have some ideas for buildings. There are 28 (7 religions x monastery, temple, cathedral, shrine) potential buildings. So far, most of them are empty or "??". I am almost done with the spread mechanisms and forbidden religions. Next up is to enter the xml for the buildings.

Is there any existing building art in vanilla or mods which captures the concept of the religious buildings? I can shuffle the building art around at the same time as the rest of the xml.

I don't think we need three religious buildings for each religion. Two is probably reasonable though.

I have no particular ideas for art.

It would be great to get some suggestions from others for the buildings. I still have no particular ideas for a second Messianism building.

Expanding slightly on the post 37 design (some additions, some tweaks):

1. Galactic Empire
Great shrine: Imperial palace. Adds +2 free noble specialist, +1culture per city with this religion, +1 gold to all noble and great noble specialists in all your cities. Spreads religion. Can be built by great priest, great noble.

Unique buildings: Feudal estate. Gives +1 happy, +2 culture, +20% culture. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to noble. Requires tech: feudalism.

Fiefdom. Gives +50% culture, +1 happy, +1 happy if Landsraad is state religion, +1 happy with Sardaukar cooperation resource, requires 3 feudal estates. Allows 2 citizens to be converted to noble. Requires tech: imperium.

2. Landsraad
Great shrine: CHOAM Headquarters. not actually a shrine, but instead another spice corporation hq (and no executives to spread it), that competes with all the other spice corporations (so you can't have both in the same city). Spreads CHOAM religion (not the same as the corporation). Founded by a great trader or a great priest. Gives +2 trader GPPs. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to trader.

Unique buildings: CHOAM outpost. Gives +1 trade route, +25% trade route yield. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to trader. Requires tech: spice economy.

CHOAM Directorate (cathedral replacement). Requires 3 CHOAM outposts. Gives +1 trade route, +50% trade route yield, gives +1 happy from each of the various luxury rade goods (semuta, opafire, soostone, etc.) Allows 1 citizen to be converted to trader. Requires tech: CHOAM.
Allows 2 citizens to be converted to trader.

3. Messianism. (Alternatives: Way of the Mahdi, Way of Muad'Dib)

Great shrine: Dune Messiah (or: Prophecies of the Mahdi). Gives -100% war weariness in this city. Gives -25% war weariness empirewide. Gives +10% military production per city with this religion. So the shrine becomes a unit factory powerhouse. Gives +1 priest GPPs.

Unique buildings: Temple of the Mahdi. +1 happy, +1 culture, +15% military production, +1 unhappy per non-state religion. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest. +10% military production with Fremen water debt. Requires theocracy tech.

4. Tleilaxu Supremacy
Great shrine: Prophecies of Bandalong. +4 culture, +2 free priest, +1 hammer output to priests and great priests in all cities. Allows 2 citizens to be converted to priests.

Unique buildings: Zensufi temple. Adds +1 happy, +1 culture, allows 2 citizens to be converted to priest. Requires Faith.

Biology lab. Adds +15% beakers, +1 happy, allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest. Requires Academies tech.

Axolotl tanks. Requires genetic manipulation. Allows 1 citizens to be converted to priest.


5. Qizarate
Great shrine: Grand Palace of Arakeen. +1 gold per city with Quizarate religion, +1 culture per city with Quizarate religion. No unhappiness in the city. +2 great prophet GPPS.

Unique buildings: Quizarate temple. +1 happy, -30% city maintenance. Allows 2 citizens to be coverted to priests.

The Golden Path. Gives +5 happy, +5 health, -25% beakers, -50% trade route yield. Requires golden path tech.


6. Way of Shai-Hulad.

Holy shrine: Shrine of the worm. +2 culture. +1 gold per city with this religion present. +2 priest GPPs.

Unique buildings: Arrakian Temple, +1 culture, +1 water, +1happy with Fremen water debt.
Allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest. Requires tech: faith.

Arrakian Cathedral. +1happy with incense, +1 happy if Shai-hulad is state religion, allows 2 citiznes to be converted to priests, +50% culture. Requires theocracy tech. Requires 3 Arrakian temples.

7. Technocracy

Holy shrine: The Great Processor. +2 culture, no GPPs (its not encouraging human development), +25% beakers, +1 beaker per city with this religion. Can be founded by great prophet, great scientist.

Unique buildings: Automated factory. +25% hammer production, +2 unhappy. +1 happy with Thinking Machines resource. Allows 1 citizens to be converted to engineer. +25% hammers with power. Requires industrialism tech.

Computerized research center. +25% beaker production, +2 unhappy. +1happy with Thinking Machines resource. +25% beakers with power. requires cybernetics tech.

Robotic power plant. Provides power with Thinking machines resource. requires thinking machines tech.

David; if you're working on the python spread mechanics and such for religions, once you get those done, if you can post those for me somehow then I can go through and tune the religion spread rates and missionary costs a little.

I finished the religion restrictions and spread mechanics last week, and I included your spread rates and missionary costs. I didn't release 1.5.5 because of the homeworld screen thing, but I will definitely put it up this weekend. I am not sure if deliverator or koma13 will have anything this weekend; I am hoping a couple of volunteers from the modpack thread will have civilopedia text; and I want to take a crack at the Mentat build / move AI and city effects.

And how about Shai hulud with Arrakis Future civic. Such things should be avoided imho. may be add own civics for every religion like in FFH?
This adds flavor and change following religion change.
Or at least requirement to be in certain civic to adopt religion.
In this way we get some religions opposed more to other certain ones (as CHOAM to Shai Hulud (Arrakis Paradise vs Arrakis Future) lets say)

I finished the religion restrictions and spread mechanics last week, and I included your spread rates and missionary costs.

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Ok, its a reasonable start point, I will tune it once released.

And how about Shai hulud with Arrakis Future civic. Such things should be avoided imho.

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I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you arguing that followers of the Shai-Hulad religion shouldn't be able to adopt the Arrakis Paradise civic?
I would strongly disagree; before the Atreides arrive in Dune, the Fremen are basically following the Shai Hulad religion (venerating Shai-Hulad) while working to transform Arrakis (Paradise civic). They don't really realize that terraforming Arrakis will destroy the worms.

I don't really think we need to block particular civic/religion combinations.

OK, this is "done". A few posts back I had copied all the design elements into a spreadsheet and annotated the items I don't know how to implement in red. Please find attached an updated spreadsheet. There are some additional items I did not know how to implement, in orange. Also, there are some changes I made, in blue. For example, I decided to leave the automated factory as available to all, instead of limiting it to Technocrat religion.

For example, I decided to leave the automated factory as available to all

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I don't really like this. Technocracy religion is very late and only spreads manually. The whole point of it is to have powerful buildings that are exclusive to technocracy.
If technocracy doesn't provide unique buildings, then what is it for? And those buildings only really make sense by following the technocracy religion. Again that was the point; if you want those buildings in your cities, you have to spread the technocracy religion to them.

"+1 culture per city with this religion" is in orange... but I am surprised that you do not know how to do this; one of the christianity shrines in the old religion (ie anything before 1.5.3) gave +1 culture rather than +1 gold. So this was already in the mod.

I would rename the Tleilaxu stuff into Zensufi, or Tleilaxu, rather than Supreme. Supreme temple just sounds weird.
I also quite liked "Prophecies of Bandalong" or something. Much more flavorful.

the Golden Path building needs to require the Golden Path tech.
Qizarate missionaries should also be extremely expensive (given that they are also basically an inquisitor).

Ahriman said:

Technocracy religion is very late and only spreads manually. The whole point of it is to have powerful buildings that are exclusive to technocracy.

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Good question. These two buildings also require thinking machines, so it seems to make a 100% overlap with the thinking machine resource. Are there some other powerful specialty buildings we could add, instead of mixing these two concepts?

I would rename the Tleilaxu stuff into Zensufi, or Tleilaxu, rather than Supreme. Supreme temple just sounds weird. I also quite liked "Prophecies of Bandalong" or something. Much more flavorful.

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I thought about these, and tried to pick names with a theme. "Tleilaxu temple" seemed too plain, and "Prophecies" seemed like an odd name for a building. Since the religion has "Supreme" in the name, I thought carrying that as a theme would be helpful. Any other suggestions for a thematic set of names?

The Golden Path building needs to require the Golden Path tech.

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Are you sure? That is a very late stage tech, and there would be nothing you could really do with the religion in between founding it, at Academies, and building temples, six tech tiers later.

Qizarate missionaries should also be extremely expensive (given that they are also basically an inquisitor).

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Easy to tweak in the unitinfos.xml file, iCost field. What value do you prefer?

why is imperial lost when other religions spread? what's the reasoning behind that ?