Religion redesign

[davidlallen]

I'm most keen to see the religions implemented. That feels like a key component of the mod not yet in place, together with getting more uniqueness into the civs. I can take the Gamefonts work. I would think the custom code required for the religions is the most challenging part.

There are at least five parts: base xml with names, unit art, religion icon art/gamefonts, building selection, and python for special effects. I have spent this afternoon trying to sort out the unit art for great people and missionaries, and making the related buttons. I can get "something reasonable" for all seven great people and all six of the missionaries from my religion spreadsheet, probably by tomorrow. The icon/gamefont work is daunting. The buildings we can come to a little later. The python is important, but not critical, and we could actually get a big improvement with the right art and no python.

I put some base art for the religion icons at this post. Do you think it is any good as a starting point? I can send the full res base art and my working files.

Have you done religion icons before? For each religion you need six: the base icon, the greyed out one for an unfounded religion in the religion screen, the gamefont and holy city variant with a star, and the gamefont_75 and holy city variant. It's important but seriously not fun.

 

[Ahriman]

First, not that we are probaly working from post 37; do we have further design comments, or shall I edit that into the first post?
Do people like the unique resource synergies?

The python is important, but not critical, and we could actually get a big improvement with the right art and no python.

It will be important to start getting some things implemented so we can test.

My biggest concerns are:
i) the *wide* variation in the timing of religous foundings. are the late religions still useful; is it worth adopting them? Do the early religions spread too much?
ii) Do we need more buildings for some of the religions? Messianism and Shai-hulad only have 1 each atm
iii) Do religions provide enough happiness? Happiness can be hard to come by without hereditary rule.

Do you think it is any good as a starting point?

This icons are mostly fine; the messianism flames on the sword don't quite work, and the lime-green background reduces the scariness of the sword. A single colored flame effect with less jagged tongues (ie more solid flame around the sword) might make the sword feel more solid, and sharper.

The golden path one doesn't really fit if we're changing this to Quizarate, and I certainly don't think it should have a median strip.

The brain thing for technocracy doesn't quite work for me; as an icon for Thinking Machines directly its ok, but I still think that something more directly industrial, like crossed hammers, would work better here.

 

[Deliverator]

If you look in our current gamefonts (enlarged pics attached) - there are a lot of custom religion icons already in there. I'd suggested using some of these as placeholders. There's a lot to choose from. That's what I did for the bonus resources - just picked things from the current gamefont that looked vaguely like the commodity in question. Presumably, somewhere there's the icons to go with all these religions - do they come with RevolutionDCM? Or perhaps the Rapture mod since I suspect jonnysmith did this gamefont work and based it on his mod gamefont which has a zillion religions in it. There's even the CHOAM symbol in there which must be from when Dune Wars had CHOAM as a corporation.

My thoughts on your first draft icons. I'd like to have a stab at them, but I won't have much time until possibly next weekend - which is why I suggest going with the placeholder logos to circumvent gamefont work that we might have to repeat if we refine the icons.

I don't really like using the CHOAM symbol for Landsraad - membership of the two bodies overlap, but they are not the same thing. The CHOAM entry in the Dune Encyclopedia is worth reading (people debate whether it is canon - but we're not all that canonical anyway with the Ordos, etc). I can think

For Mahdi (Messianism) I prefer something like a dark silhouetted figure with a glowing aura around them. Flaming swords are not especially Dune for me.

Perhaps cogs for Technocracy? Or some kind of stylised circuit board style thing?

I think the worm symbol will need to be more stylised if it's going to work at gamefont size. I was thinking do a cream on brown version of our current barbarian symbol.

Some kind of lion for Imperium I think, but it would need to be slightly different from the Corrino flag.

DNA for the Tleilaxu is OK, but I think their religion should be separated from their biological activities perhaps, in which case we should have something more abstract. I suggest we should use the name Tleilaxu Zensufism rather than Supremacy. We need to capture the fact that they are secretly organized along theistic lines.

No ideas for a Qizarate logo yet.

I think the best approach is to go with placeholder icons, until I have a chance to rustle up some new ones. When the gameplay aspects are built and bedded in, we can roll in some more polished art.

I think we should go with Temple of Alia as the Qizarate shrine. This means swapping in Lady Margot Fenring as the second BG leader instead of Alia. I would have done this already if I'd come up with a good leaderhead. Do you think anyone would be confused/upset if we used Mohiam from Children of Dune for Margot? She certainly looks different enough...

Spoiler :

 

[Ahriman]

I don't really like using the CHOAM symbol for Landsraad - membership of the two bodies overlap, but they are not the same thing

Our Landsraad religion is a trade religion, so I think its fine.

For Mahdi (Messianism) I prefer something like a dark silhouetted figure with a glowing aura around them. Flaming swords are not especially Dune for me.

"Mahdi" doesn't really make sense as the name of a religion. That would be like calling Christianity "Jesus", or Islam "Mohammad", or Judiasm "Moses". It also isn't as directly related to the purpose of the religion
A silhouetted figure might make it seem that the religion was about intrigue; we want it to be as clear as possible that this religion is about conquest. A sword does that.
I'm still unsure if this religion needs a second building or not, and if so what it should be (and where in the tech tree).

Or some kind of stylised circuit board style thing?

This sounds like it would be very hard to do in a simple icon. Its not the most easily identifiable of shapes.
Maybe a hammer crossed with a lightning bolt: industry and technology? (Like a communist hammer and sickle).

but I think their religion should be separated from their biological activities

I disagree, I think they are pretty tied together fluffwise, and their religion *is* basically a civ-specific mechanic, so it makes sense to tie the two together. Their shrine is designed to buff priests and let them run a priest specialist economy, so they need priest slots on their buildings. And if their buildings are biological... so what? Priest slots anyway.

I suggest we should use the name Tleilaxu Zensufism rather than Supremacy.

This is fine with me, I don't mind either way.

I think the best approach is to go with placeholder icons, until I have a chance to rustle up some new ones.

Agreed.

 

[Ahriman]

Also: can I suggest using Rhombur Vernius as the leader for Ix rather than Erlin Malky?

I think we should try to use leaders who are contemporaneous with the events of Dune/Children of Dune whenever possible, Malky comes 3000+ years later.

I'm sure we can find a picture of a cyborg somewhere to use. And I think a cyborg picture would be more "Ixian" too than just some old man for Malky.

Some examples:
http://www.fotosearch.com/BLD114/ca_27_4/
http://www.fotosearch.com/CSP202/k2028559/
http://bluetoothstore.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/cyborg.jpg


Also: another possible thinking machine picture:
http://www.fotosearch.com/CSP047/k0474707/

 

[davidlallen]

If you look in our current gamefonts (enlarged pics attached) - there are a lot of custom religion icons already in there. I'd suggested using some of these as placeholders.

Interesting point. Here is a proposal for "better", but not "perfect" art.

* Imperial: replace six point Jewish star in gamefonts with five point one from Shaddam's medal
* Landsraad: the CHOAM flag is already in there.
* Mahdi: use blue crescent (today's Zensunni)
* Qizarate: use heart (today's Zensufism)
* Shai-Hulud: use green circle (today's Zenshiism)
* Technocrat: there is a random hammer icon in gamefonts (above 113); draw a new 64x64 icon to match
* Tleilaxu: use purple wheel (today's Maha Christian)

Attached is the 64x64 art. I will make *one* change to gamefonts to put the five point star; I can survive that.

 

[Deliverator]

"Mahdi" doesn't really make sense as the name of a religion. That would be like calling Christianity "Jesus", or Islam "Mohammad", or Judiasm "Moses".

I appreciate that - I'm just searching for a more Dune related term. I associate Messianism with Judaism too much - but perhaps that's just me. I don't particularly like Way of Mahdi either... there's probably a nicer phrase.

Placeholders look fine for now.

 

[davidlallen]

Working on the python for restricting religion founding/converting.

Is there any reason why Tleilaxu should need a tech for their religion? You found a city on turn 1-2. It could immediately found the religion and become the holy city. This is easier to implement, since I don't have to worry about any tech effect on the religion spread.

Normally, you have the opportunity to have "no state religion", and you have to convert with a turn of anarchy. Should the Tleilaxu player be allowed to have no state religion, or should the game force a conversion when the religion is founded? Similarly, should the Tleilaxu player be allowed to choose later on, to convert to "no religion"?

 

[Ahriman]

Is there any reason why Tleilaxu should need a tech for their religion? You found a city on turn 1-2. It could immediately found the religion and become the holy city. This is easier to implement, since I don't have to worry about any tech effect on the religion spread.

There is no reason, as long as you are sure that immediately founding the religion will also generate a holy city; sometimes initial foundings like this say "religion founded" but don't actually generate a holy city that spreads the religion or where the shrine can be built.

Normally, you have the opportunity to have "no state religion", and you have to convert with a turn of anarchy. Should the Tleilaxu player be allowed to have no state religion, or should the game force a conversion when the religion is founded? Similarly, should the Tleilaxu player be allowed to choose later on, to convert to "no religion"

I see no particular harm in letting them be no-religion if they want; they miss the extra culture and happiness that way, and we could arguably make some of their buildings require Supremacy state religion. So if they're willing to give up biology labs, axolotl tanks and the happy/culture bonus in exchange for avoiding diplomacy penalties then let them.
The AI will always adopt state religion, so its only humans we are worrying about.
I don't feel strongly either way.

 

[davidlallen]

I have gotten the Tleilaxu spread mechanism to work (automatically in any city they found). This is standalone python and relatively straightforward.

I have a proof of concept for religions which are forbidden to civs. This is more complicated, and my implementation is definitely not releaseable. There are python hooks to prevent civs from founding religions, but no way to prevent a civ from converting. So I have added an internal function, CvReligion::isForbidden(CivilizationTypes eCiv). It means each religion, can list which civilizations are not allowed to use it. So far this is hard-coded into sdk, but I will have to make it an xml list field before releasing it. Then I have sprinkled calls to isForbidden into all the right places, so that civs cannot found or convert to their forbidden religions.

I have a user interface design question, however. In the tech chooser, the hover help for a tech is short, and says, "First to research founds Qizarate". Now, this is sometimes true and sometimes not. If the religion is forbidden to your civ, you will not found even though you are first. Should the hover help say, "Not allowed to civ 1, civ 2, civ 3" the whole list? Or just "Not allowed for you"? Or nothing at all (which will be confusing)?

 

[Ahriman]

I will ask the Warhammer team how religions are blocked, I know we have it there.

"First to research founds A (available only to X)", or "First to research founds B (unavailable to Y, Z)" are both fine, whichever is fewer.

We can also talk more about which religions should/should not be adoptable by which civs.

My first impression is:
Imperium, adoptable by anyone except Tleilaxu and Fremen.
Landsraad, adoptable by anyone except Tleilaxu and Fremen.
Shai-Hulad, adoptable by anyone except Tleilaxu. (and Corrino? and Harkonnen?)
Messianism, adoptable by anyone except Tleilaxu (and Corrino? and Harkonnen?)
Quizarate, adoptable by anyone except Tleilaxu? (and Corrino? and Harkonnen?)
Technocracy, adoptable by anyone except Tleilaxu and Bene Gesserit.
Tleilaxu, adoptable only by Tleilaxu.

 

[davidlallen]

We can also talk more about which religions should/should not be adoptable by which civs.

This is given in your original design, modulo some name switching. I am implementing based on my spreadsheet a few posts back. (Posts 37-38)

 

[Ahriman]

This is given in your original design, modulo some name switching.

Yes, but I'm happy to be more flexible if people want; I don't feel strongly about that part of the design.

 

[rocklikeafool]

I will ask the Warhammer team how religions are blocked, I know we have it there.

IIRC FfH was the 1st mod to allow this kinda thing. It's set up there in the LeaderHeadInfos. We're using the FF code, of course, in WHoC. And that mechanic transfers over. The code uses an integer of -100 to 100 for whether a leader will adopt a religion. You'll find this at the end of each <LeadeHeadInfo>. For example:

Spoiler :

___________<ReligionWeightModifiers>
_________________<ReligionWeightModifier>
_______________________<ReligionType>RELIGION_EVIL</ReligionType>
_______________________<iWeightModifier>-20</iWeightModifier>
________________</ReligionWeightModifier>
________________<ReligionWeightModifier>
______________________<ReligionType>RELIGION_GOOD</ReligionType>
______________________<iWeightModifier>-20</iWeightModifier>
________________<ReligionWeightModifier>
__________</ReligionWeightModifiers>
_____</LeaderHeadInfo>

(The "____"s represent spaces in the XML code.)

By setting the <iWeightModifier> to -100, you can prevent a leader from adopting a certain religion. Or alternatively, by setting it to 100, you can cause a leader to always adopt that religion, provided the leader has the religion in 1 or more of its cities.


That is the easiest way I know of.

 

[Ahriman]

That is the easiest way I know of.

But does this prevent a *human* player from adopting a particular religion as their state religion, or does it just tell an AI not to?

 

[rocklikeafool]

I believe it just prevents the AI from doing so. If you wanna block both, may I suggest you attach the religions to techs and block certain civs from certain religious techs. This is somewhat unwieldy, as it may require a reworking of your tech tree.

 

[orlanth]

I don't think anything else is involved, I switched it pretty easily for AI/human in WH just by changing the leaderhead weights per the thread below.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=299145
Well, give it a try and see.

 

[Fenring]

If you look in our current gamefonts (enlarged pics attached) - there are a lot of custom religion icons already in there. I'd suggested using some of these as placeholders. There's a lot to choose from. That's what I did for the bonus resources - just picked things from the current gamefont that looked vaguely like the commodity in question. Presumably, somewhere there's the icons to go with all these religions - do they come with RevolutionDCM? Or perhaps the Rapture mod since I suspect jonnysmith did this gamefont work and based it on his mod gamefont which has a zillion religions in it. There's even the CHOAM symbol in there which must be from when Dune Wars had CHOAM as a corporation.

My thoughts on your first draft icons. I'd like to have a stab at them, but I won't have much time until possibly next weekend - which is why I suggest going with the placeholder logos to circumvent gamefont work that we might have to repeat if we refine the icons.

I don't really like using the CHOAM symbol for Landsraad - membership of the two bodies overlap, but they are not the same thing. The CHOAM entry in the Dune Encyclopedia is worth reading (people debate whether it is canon - but we're not all that canonical anyway with the Ordos, etc). I can think

For Mahdi (Messianism) I prefer something like a dark silhouetted figure with a glowing aura around them. Flaming swords are not especially Dune for me.

Perhaps cogs for Technocracy? Or some kind of stylised circuit board style thing?

I think the worm symbol will need to be more stylised if it's going to work at gamefont size. I was thinking do a cream on brown version of our current barbarian symbol.

Some kind of lion for Imperium I think, but it would need to be slightly different from the Corrino flag.

DNA for the Tleilaxu is OK, but I think their religion should be separated from their biological activities perhaps, in which case we should have something more abstract. I suggest we should use the name Tleilaxu Zensufism rather than Supremacy. We need to capture the fact that they are secretly organized along theistic lines.

No ideas for a Qizarate logo yet.

I think the best approach is to go with placeholder icons, until I have a chance to rustle up some new ones. When the gameplay aspects are built and bedded in, we can roll in some more polished art.

I think we should go with Temple of Alia as the Qizarate shrine. This means swapping in Lady Margot Fenring as the second BG leader instead of Alia. I would have done this already if I'd come up with a good leaderhead. Do you think anyone would be confused/upset if we used Mohiam from Children of Dune for Margot? She certainly looks different enough...

Spoiler :

How about true Lady Margot?

 

[Deliverator]

The problem we have is that all the other leaderheads are from TV/film stills and one made from an illustration might look out of place. I can have a play with it though and see if I can make it match the others somehow. Otherwise I think the Children of Dune Mohiam is a reasonable way to go.

 

[Ahriman]

Otherwise I think the Children of Dune Mohiam is a reasonable way to go.

Agreed. The card looks strange.