Dr kossin #2

Welcome to Dr kossin #2, which stands for Daily Round.

Yes, my goal is to get in a update every day - as long as I have the time (work, girlfriend, etc). I might skip a day here and there but I will compensate by playing an extra round here and there.
Now I don't plan on very long updates, sometimes just 10 turns, and will stop at strategic times.

That being said, I'm not a great player but I can manage at times. My goal is to improve and, if possible, help others improve as well. I couldn't beat Noble when I started reading this forum (could barely beat Warlord) and I am now in the process of moving up to Immortal.

That's where you come in. I need your ideas, your criticism and everything else you can throw at me - even if you can't beat Noble. Since I plan on an update everyday, there will be mistakes from my part and I might not always get the best advice going forward. That's life!

You are also welcome to shadow this game, although I would prefer you post it in spoilers and no further than I have already played. You can still shadow the whole game and post it but it is important that no one uses that knowledge (land, AIs) to help me.

Without further time wasting, let's go to the first game.

Dr kossin #2

Round 0 Warrior move and a decision
Round 1 It's a zoo out there
Round 2 Finally some good news... sorta
Round 3 Kofi Annan would have been proud
Round 4 Towards Liberalism with more great luck
Round 5 Exploration and an alliance
Round 6 Picking cherries!
Round 7 Cleaning up the mess

Game settings:
Immortal
Fractal (I've had a friend check that it is not isolated or semi-isolated)
Normal Speed
No Huts/Events
BUG 4.1 in Custom Assets
Everything else normal.

Another strong leader this time: Mehmed, the man of many cheap buildings.


Fast granaries, harbors, lighthouses, factories, courthouses, 25% extra production to workers, 2 to every city and -50% civics costs. I'll take that any day of the week.
His UB: an aqueduct with 2. It's really great early allowing for larger cities.


His UU: A musketman with 25% extra attack against melee, ranged and mounted. It can be quite good if teched early enough.


We again start with Agriculture and The Wheel


These are the 2 most expensive starting techs. Moreover, pottery is only 1 tech away.

And the start:


Here's what I think is in the fog:


Non-irrigated corn, sugar, ivory an oasis. What looks like 3 hills and not too much plains. It looks quite decent while not as overpowered as the previous start.

I think settling in place is the way to go. It lacks commerce a bit (no rivers) but makes up for it in production. In that case, I will consider settling before moving the warrior.

Worker first on the oasis and after the border pop, the plains hill for an extra .

If settling reveals pigs/sheep, then I might consider hunting>AH. Otherwise should hunting wait until after mining/BW?

I will post a new screenshot after some feedback.

you havent attached a save of the start.

For my 2 cents - my first thoughts were Hunting > Mining > BW, is improving the ivory tile worth it? With all that forest maybe Mining > BW straight off the bat ...

Good luck

Thanks, I always forget it. Ivory isn't a great tile, especially non-riverside as the output isn't really impressive (need roads to connect as well). Skipping it depends on what lies in the fog mostly I would say.

kossin said:

I think settling in place is the way to go. It lacks commerce a bit (no rivers) but makes up for it in production.

Click to expand...

Is that going to be stronger than settling on the ivory?

I considered settling on the Ivory actually while moving the warrior north to see what's there. It also makes the first worker come up much faster and we don't need hunting for a while. I wasn't sure so I did not mention it - glad you have.

kossin said:

I considered settling on the Ivory actually while moving the warrior north to see what's there. It also makes the first worker come up much faster and we don't need hunting for a while. I wasn't sure so I did not mention it - glad you have.

Click to expand...

And when you do get Hunting, the main benefit (+1 ) appears immediately, and saves some worker turns. But you lose some midgame benefits - the freshwater health bonus, and the "free" irrigation of the corn with Civil Service.

Plus, if there are hidden strategic resources in the fat cross, they are currently 2N and 2W - both tiles are lost by the move the the elephants.

I do like settling on ivory, but the problem in this case is you lose the fresh water bonus. Is that a big deal? You are expansive, so it's not as big an issue, but it's something.

I always love having only like 1 or 2 non-forested tiles in my cap's BFC, since odds are there's a resource there. If you move they get out of your BFC.

Now, the other option to consider is settling on the sugar. It gives you a 3F city tile, and an improved sugar really doesn't give all that much (4F/1C isn't bad, but it only ends up 1C better than just farming it, and is worse post-bio). You lose 1 hill, and what looks like 4 forested tiles to the south, but you gain some more tiles to the north. Everything points to moving the warrior N and then evaluating from there.

UWHabs said:

I do like settling on ivory, but the problem in this case is you lose the fresh water bonus. Is that a big deal? You are expansive, so it's not as big an issue, but it's something.

I always love having only like 1 or 2 non-forested tiles in my cap's BFC, since odds are there's a resource there. If you move they get out of your BFC.

Now, the other option to consider is settling on the sugar. It gives you a 3F city tile, and an improved sugar really doesn't give all that much (4F/1C isn't bad, but it only ends up 1C better than just farming it, and is worse post-bio). You lose 1 hill, and what looks like 4 forested tiles to the south, but you gain some more tiles to the north. Everything points to moving the warrior N and then evaluating from there.

Click to expand...

Great point! Unless someone comes up with a better plan, I'll move the warrior 1N in a little bit and post turn 0.

I don't much like the looks of settling on the Ellies- You're trading nice grass for more hills and plains. You also miss out on a potential hidden resource N of the sugar.

Settling on the sugar looks better. Keeps the clear grassland to the W and N. Sugar often comes in bunches too. I would bet money if you move the warrior 1N you will see at least one more sugar up there in the fog.

I'd go for the elephants. Settling on a 2 hammer tile like that will get you your first worker out in (I think) 3 fewer turns. That's a huge benefit!

Settling on the Ivory will result in a 1-turn edge for the worker. I'll move the warrior and we'll see what's north.

Turn 0
Moved the warrior and as suggested, another sugar. There are also some rivers. Bad news though: we're next to the jungle strip so expanding north isn't really appealing right now.


Settling on the sugar will allow for 2 more early commerce tiles while settling on the Ivory will lose 1 sugar, a potential resource 2W in between the forests but gain a turn on the worker. I'm inching towards settling on the sugar but will make the decision sometime later today when I play the first round.

If this were a non-expansive civ, I'd stay in place for the fresh water. But since you are expansive, 1N looks reasonable.

Perhaps you can try a gunpowder beeline to show off them janissaries? They're pretty ridiculous units in their era.

kossin said:

Settling on the Ivory will result in a 1-turn edge for the worker.

Click to expand...

Huh? Oh, expansive. I'm not sure that 1 turn is quite the right way to describe this, as I think you can get some additional benefits from tile juggling - swapping to the oasis at the right time to trade hammer overflow for commerce, or whatever.

Settling on sugar is fun too. I'd actually be somewhat encouraged by the jungle to the north - given the proximity, you aren't likely to put an early city to the north. Therefore, moving the capital gives you more room in the area of the map where you want to put your early cities anyway.

I see no reason not to settle in place. Might miss a resource south if you move north. No reason to settle on a resource too imo.

Dirk1302 said:

No reason to settle on a resource too imo.

Click to expand...

You're saying that free / free aren't a reason, or aren't enough to compensate for... what precisely?

The 3 tiles in the BFC that are in the fog to the south are clearly forests so the only thing I'd miss from moving north is a resource in the second culture pop which is on turn 50, ample time to set up a second city by then I think. While I generally also avoid settling on resources, sugar will take a long time before it's improvable and it would give a good benefit in the early game.
The question is then... do I go for a 'stronger' early game or for a better city in the long run?

The stronger early game. Settle on the sugar.

And in place isn't stronger in the long run either.

Compare settling on sugar and farming the grass you're on now vs. settling in place and plantation the sugar:
settle/farm:
3/1/1 for city tile + 3/0/0 for grass = 6/1/1 total
in place/plantation:
2/1/1 for city tile + 4/0/1 for plantation = 6/1/2 total

You get one extra commerce, but you only get that with calendar (since you can't plantation until calendar OR even farm it until civil service). You lose: forested hill, forested plains, 3 random forested squares. You gain: empty grassland, unforested hill, 3 unknown tiles (green, possibly forested, possibly one with jungle). And the freshwater bonus.

I think given being expansive, extra food now is more important than the freshwater bonus. That being said, you do also lose the first couple turns of working an oasis vs. working just a plain corn tile, so you do lose ~10 commerce early, which is not good to lose, but I think the extra food that you get to use early more than makes up for it.

Forests in the south, missed that.Settling sugar may be a reasonable alternative. Even being expansive the 2 health from freshwater is ok though if you want to grow the capital very big.

UWHabs said:

I think given being expansive, extra food now is more important than the freshwater bonus. That being said, you do also lose the first couple turns of working an oasis vs. working just a plain corn tile

Click to expand...

You're expansive: are you really going to be working a 3F tile while training your first worker? After all, the contribution to Worker training doesn't benefit from the production bonus (unless I missed a change in the last patch?)