SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

I totally don't agree to whip a settler in Delhi.

That's absolutely against our effort to beeline CS and build a Academy (and UO in the future) there, especially at the moment where Bombay is capable to spam the next 3 settlers in a short time.

As the hint says, don't neglect cottages: it allows you to accumulate commerce while growing the pop. I have no doubt that the cottages will pay back soon: under Bureau, a 4-commerce cottage in Delhi > a scientist.

If we do have any production problem over Settlers and Workers, I don't mind going chopping the trees in the Wheat spot.

I like kossin's plan with the "remember to trade a health resource on the first turn" added. It's also important to save forests (at least the 2 closest to the NW/SW) around Vijay to try to grow a final BFC forest. If that forest grows it's KEY to make sure there are enough workers around Vijay to complete all (5) chops by 1175BC for early GLH completion.

Also.. if something outside the plan happens during the turnset (we miss Mids, Wheat site taken, GLH Built elsewhere), it's probably a good idea to stop, and discuss what, if anything, we can do?

Regarding stuff that happens next:
- Aren't we kinda late on ToA allready? Duckweed wants 2pop whip Granary+Library and 3pop whip settler into ToA, and build ToA while regrowing? Will try it out a bit. It's just something I wouldn't normally do.
- I see the point of "playing to win" when it comes to whipping GLH vs not whipping it. It just would suck really bad to lose it 1100BC for the rest of the game, that's all... we'll see when next turnset is decided (and if GLH is still available by then, or if we lucked out and chopped it in 1175BC )
- Wonders: TGL+NE in Delhi could work out ok. I think we can get Parthenon in the 5th site if we want it. Hanging Gardens is definately powerful if we end up with GLH+Settlerspam, so I'm all for fitting that in. MoM is nice too, obv, but I'm not sure we can go there?
- About Music. I aggree we don't really have to prioritize it much (If we're not building Sistine, our "only" bonus is the Artist, and I think we'll get the GPP we need to generate enough for our win later). Other than that I aggree with kossin's techpath, and probably also on saving the bulb on Philo.

-Settler whip can be decided after this set as well.

-ToA: it depends. Completion date is either ~1000BC or ~200BC. Justinian will be attempting it almost for certain. While we have a good clue that no AI has no easy access to Stone, we can't say the same about Marble as we have no clue really. Still I'd put hammers in it - worst that can come out is gold - which is also pretty good. Hanging Gardens is much more important imo however.

We've stalled this set enough. I think there are enough votes to proceed with Udey1's plan + my modifications and the corn <->sheep (we're getting clams soon anyway).

@Udey1
Can you update your plan? I'd really like to have the set done in the next 24 hours. The more we stall early on the less time we have to concentrate on late-game. There's going to be a lot of micro/testing involved later on as well.

The one thing that doesn't seem to be quite decided is 2-pop or 1-pop whip of Library. I suggested 1-pop but 2-pop can certainly work as well and will give us more hammers on ToA (earlier build or more gold).

If we're really going after ToA, I don't mind a 2-pop whip of Library either (put enough hammers into it to make it worth it obv.), I think. It'll grow back quickly enough.

It'll also mean we have more workerturns free to use elsewhere (no need for 2 workers to put up cottages that aren't going to be used, I guess?)

It does free up some workers for a little while yes.

If a forest spawns by Vijay plan on 5 extra worker turns (that is in 1275BC a 3rd worker should be there to chop) so in 1300BC cancel a worker action that can get to the roaded forest immediately the next turn (1E of Bombay). Of course if a forest grows later then it can be chopped in time to have a natural finish in 1150BC instead of 1 turn earlier.

EDIT: More and more disliking the settler whip in Delhi like dingding says... we worked for an Academy there and a Library. Unless we find a fantastic spot, it doesn't really pay off long term (which is what we really want).

I am writing up my redone plans now trying to take in all suggestions/criticisms. (family life is busy right now G-pa in law is in the hospital)

Redone turnset:

Turn 103:
2 workers to Dehli to chop
3rd starts chopping forest hills in vijay
W3 fogbusts
Vijay move FP to marble
Trade corn for clams now or ASAP

Turn 104:
2 chops complete in Dehli
forest hill vijay prechop

Turn 105:
whip WB in patal, 2nd workboat queued
Vijay grow to 4, work stone
2 more chops finish in Dehli pyramids 1 turn
1 worker to Vijay for prechop grass forest

Turn 106:
Pyramids finish, switch to rep NSR
research 0 percent currency (do we want to minimize pottery overflow here?)
WB from patal scouts Justinian
GLH begin in vijay
2 workers to bombay to chop (these can get switched if forests grow)
prechop in vijay GF begins


Turn 107:
Bombay FW complete, start settler- bombay FW to clam forest to chop next turn

Turn 108:
2 pop whip granary in Dehli
begin clam chop
hills forest vijay prechopp complete (should I mine here? what should he do since he cant really move)

Turn 109
grass forest vijay is prechopped

Turn 110
move FW from grass forest vijay(with a road) to plains forest

Turn 111
2F2C patal (kossin)

Turn 112
whip library

Turn 113
coordinated chops complete (bombay choppers will move if extra forests grow)
must decide what to do with Dehli overflow now. Some say ToA. that would be nice. I do not want to whip a settler from here.
Research 100%
Turn 114:
Stop point. 2 pop whip up for GLH settler done in bombay if there were no new forests



My vote is to not whip the capital. I think we need to start cottaging it if we are going to have a strong bureaucracy.

The settler for SW wheat can get chops there for more workers/settlers

We could do hanging gardens instead of ToA. I think that might be better for a GE later and because I think its much safer than ToA at this point.

According to the test game, required slider to finish Pottery with minimum overflow is 60%. However we'll be at 36 total commerce which loses 2 commerce (1 gold and 1 towards research).

We do gain 14 gold for deficit spending with a Library i.e. 1 turn of research at 100%. Depending on Delhi size at t113, I think we effectively gain 5 beakers at the cost of 1 gold.

So yes, get minimum overflow in Currency via 60% (or if the test game is off and 50% is enough great!)

t108
No time to mine in Vijay, you have to complete forest chops within 4 turns. That worker can go to the forest with the road (the new worker only puts 1 pre-chop in it to avoid losing movement)

t113
Agree on ToA overflow. Best case we get it, worst case we get gold to research CS. Either is good in my books.

I also much prefer HG to ToA. On Emperor we have a lot of time to grab this wonder however with the apparent lack of stone of AIs. I think we complete it too soon if we go after it right away however. Overflow in ToA and we can start working on Aqueduct after?

Plan looking good with kossin's remarks taken into account.

You're also gonna use the chariot to scout out the rest of our land, and get started on Zara's land, yeah? (South to Deer site, EDIT: then east (geeze.. how hard is it to tell my east from my west, really....). With WIII in place I think barbs are more or less gone.

I'm not sure on this ToA plan, but if we can get it, why not, at least put overflow there for now. However.. if we're putting HG+NE+GL in Delhi... how does that timeline work out if we're building ToA first? If we're putting city 5 on Settlerduty with the forests, where do we attempt Parthenon (if anywhere?). HG would be good with 12-15 cities, which should be doable.

I'm also still not sure on this whole 3pop whip out a settler deal in Delhi. I'm not even sure we can get city #6 offshore with good exploration. If Vijay builds WBx2 (one north, EDIT : one east) then galley, we're maybe talking city 7 allready?

Final clarification on my part:

T108: The worker may just complete the chop, then move to roaded forest T109?

^Yup, we agree on this one.

No complaints about the plan.
I didn't test it really, so I can't say about the overflows into buildings vs wonders.

However, I think HG is premature, right now.
We're going in no state religion + rep, we have only silver as a happiness resource but no forges to let it shine... --> Our happy cap is low, especially if we whip everywhere. HG would grow our cities, right, but if it's to whip them right away, we don't need the HG...
Later on the health bonus is useful and the 1 pop growth gets better as well because a) it costs more food and b) we can handle the happiness.
Finally, I don't think we need to rush the HG. If we really want it, we can build it later, right ?

The ToA would be much more convenient right now, even if it would lose some power as the game goes on.


Question :
What's the intended build in Vijay after the GLH is done (provided we don't whip) ?
Workboats/galleys production ? Whipping or growing to 5 ? I know you want this, not sure how exactly...
Workers/settlers production ? I'd like it if it contributed in that respect. I fear we will just whip it to size 2 again and again

@ 6th city offshore, maybe :
- start a galley in Vijay first (no wb). It could check the northern islands.
- send 2 workers in Varanasi (wheat city) instead of one to chop the workboat (plainshill forest) from there (to go east, past Zara). I will also get the wheat improved faster, but loses worker turns, yep.

@BIC:
We aggree on delaying HG (no real point right now). Not convinced we get ToA anyways (I'm at like 650BC completion or so with current plan, and that could not work out, we'll see)

As for what Vijay does, we could, I guess ship a galley with settler and escort up north there ASAP (and delay/drop WB) hoping for a decent site. I still think at least WB->Galley in Vijay is ok (and could probably be timed with a settler somehow), especially if Vijay stays at size 4. Then Vijay can contribute in settler production.

Using the wheatsite to produce a WB quickly is also a decent option (We'll want to chop+mine the PH anyways, I guess.. to potentially produce settlers at size 2, or for Parthenon). Will try a few different approaches for my turnset, and try to compare them.

@Udey's turnset:
I'm off for tonight. I'm ok with Udey1's plan with the mentioned modifications.

Bugg123 said:

Plan looking good with kossin's remarks taken into account.

You're also gonna use the chariot to scout out the rest of our land, and get started on Zara's land, yeah? (South to Deer site, EDIT: then east (geeze.. how hard is it to tell my east from my west, really....). With WIII in place I think barbs are more or less gone.

I'm not sure on this ToA plan, but if we can get it, why not, at least put overflow there for now. However.. if we're putting HG+NE+GL in Delhi... how does that timeline work out if we're building ToA first? If we're putting city 5 on Settlerduty with the forests, where do we attempt Parthenon (if anywhere?). HG would be good with 12-15 cities, which should be doable.

I'm also still not sure on this whole 3pop whip out a settler deal in Delhi. I'm not even sure we can get city #6 offshore with good exploration. If Vijay builds WBx2 (one north, EDIT : one east) then galley, we're maybe talking city 7 allready?

Click to expand...

Yes chariot will backup W3 warrior on exploration. If they get out there then the fogbust will be pretty much complete.

Ok seems like overflow from library will go to ToA. If we do manage to snag it GPP is powerful.


3 in favor:
I will run through my test game once more and then do it for reals.

edit: I have more time today. I will hold off for a while to wait for ding ding/duckweed for input. but will do turnset this evening.

@Udey1
Overall your plan looks good, but I have some issues and will update soon.

Edit:

The following are all modifications:

T 103 -- Why not sent the worker to chop the forest 1NW of Vij and then the forest outside the border
T 104 -- Should be 3 chops completed IIRC
T 105 -- that worker starts to chop forest around Bombay. Delhi starts Granary
T 106 -- Delhi whip Granary (it should be whipped as soon as possible to save the food) another 2 workers also chop the forests in Bombay. After 3 chops done, you can send 1 worker back to Delhi for cottages
T 107 -- Overflow to Lib, Bombay new worker to the forest hill and chop next turn
T 108 -- Whip lib
T 109 -- Start ToA

Above are my impression of previous test run, the major different is 2 pop whip of granary and lib as soon as possible.

Last Note, Burea cottages are powerful, but there are things more important!!!

To whom are strongly against whipping the settler in Delhi, have you thought about this issue with actual calculation or that's just your feeling? Without real experience and just relying on personal intuition, I won't make any assertion when I see the different points. Here's some numbers you may want to look at and carefully think about it.

The loss from 3 pop whip of settler. In short, commerce or beakers. Delhi needs 2, 2, 3 turns from size 3 to 4 ,5, 6, therefore, it's 2, 4, 7 turns on 3 cottages. In cottage, gamlet, village and town stage, the commerce gain is 26C, 19.5C, 19.5C and 19.5C (burea bonus) = 85C. It's pretty complicate to translate them to beakers with Delhi's science bonus. Given 50% science in average, There are probably 85 * 50% * 100% = ~ 40 beakers more.

Then what we can gain from the settler? Delhi won't build any settler before ToA, or probably none since it is going to be busy at infrastructures and wonders from now on, which make this settler a pure extra one. The next question is -- when is the space going to be saturated by the last settler we need. I have not run test that far, kossin could answer this question. I'd say 50 ~ 100 turns after the one whipped from Delhi. Do I need to say anything more on the choice between an extra city for 50 ~ 100 turns and 85C + 40 beakers? If you do need more clarification, I'm glad to do so when I have time.

There are a couple more reasons.
1. whipping the settler frees all 3 workers around Delhi and they can start to chop 3 forests around Bombay to speed up the 5th settler by 2 or 3 turns. I have a feeling that we will probably lose the wheat site, hence the 2 or 3 turns could be critical.
2. faster ToA and probably other buildings due to the overflow from settler

Good counterargument: I don't quite follow one part. Did you want to whip the settler after the library? And then you would send it to SW wheat?

^ Yes, after it grows back to size 6, we should make a 3 pop whip a settler from Delhi. But no, the settler from Bombay come out faster and should be sent to the wheat site. Make sure that you sent the chariot to zara's land and watch for his settler, his intend site should be 2S of the wheat, so don't waste settle turn if you see that we are going to lose it. In that case, send it to settle on Rice.

@Duckweed
The issues you raise are from the next set (after Udey1)?
Or do you have something for those 13 turns?

Delhi will be size 5/6 (can't remember) at 1150BC so we can decide next to whip settler or not.

^^
Zara might settle the cows SW of Aksum too - he has no cities there yet. At least he did that in the test.