SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

Aye, well done.

That barb galley is going to feast on a bunch of workboats down south.

Construction+Theo will be good to have.
I strongly doubt we can extort Feudalism from Zara so it will probably be needed for vassaling as well.

Resource deals need to be updated badly... we might as well improve the Incense now that we have workers next to them (or just 1 of the 2).
In the same line of thought we could go Compass>Optics quickly to get another +1 from Whales as Duckweed queued.

We'll want to hook up the Iron in Delhi soon: trade away our copper, queue some warriors for garrison duty for 1~2 turn and then finish the road on the Iron mine.

Cottages will be weaker than Colossus coast for now but once we get PP Villages will outweigh the coast (especially once we get to Astronomy and lose TC) so eventually we should add some more and run the excess food as specialists to stay under the happy cap.
As long as a post-PP cottage can be worked for >60 turns, it is worth building.

That's all the time I have for now, I'll check some more tonight and try to update the test game (and fix some tile errors).

BornInCantaloup said:

Situation is sweet. Well done, Duckweed !
(and the score... yeah... you announced it... Farming is good... teching is good... HG is tremendous... That's +122 on the last turn... It doesn't happen everyday.
It's a nice thing we let Agra and Lahore grow. I was fearing after my set that we would leave them on work mines and don't grow mode)

The farm road was much needed.
Do we want an incense plantation, now that our workers are around Calcutta ? Or would it take too long ?

- We should send 1 worker to Delhi, since it has only 11 improved tiles.
- If we want to chop forests east of Delhi, it should also be now (Zara's new city is closer).
- We haven't decided yet what kind of improvements we want in Madras. If we grow it further without running specs, then we will need improvements there. Seeing how the game looks right now, I'd say farms would be ok. Or is the Colossus enhanced coast good enough ?

Spare worker points --> the road ? We will need one to get maces moving...

Click to expand...

Agra might still need to work on food tile for a bit longer time to whip lib and univ.

We can leave 1 worker in cal for the incense tile, 2 workers to connect the road to Pat and Madras, and 2 to eastern of Delhi for road and forest chop.

Del won't grow too much in short time since it is going to whip 2 monasteries for the overflow to OU, the cottage on the grassland tile 2W of Delhi is close to be done.

I'd say to make Madras another GP farm, it can support 6 specialists at size 12. Can work at coastal tiles before size 12.

@kossin

I intended to leave the resource trade deals as many as possible with Meh, Saladin, and Jus to get the diplomatic bonus. Especially Meh, I see a high possibility that we need his vote. We possibly need to attack Toku finally.

We can trade Feudalism from Meh and Theology from Saladin. If we can't get construction in ~5 turns, then we need to research it ourselves. Compass->Optics sounds fine. However, there's a possibility that we can trade compass, PP gives instant commercial boost if the next GP is a GS.

Doesn't one resource trade achieve the same as multiple resource trades?

Agree to grab PP if we get a GS so probably we could play a short 2-turns set to see. We can always put some research on Music in the meantime to secure the GA. Let's delay Compass/Construction as much as we can.

@Duckweed

I tried updating the test game but I can't seem to match the same moves you did so all the cities are off by hammers/food. Can you take some time to do it?

@kossin

I read an article before, 1 resource trade takes 50 turns to get +1, 5 take 10 turns.

Unfortunately, I already deleted the test file. If there's only hammers/food difference, it can be fixed by WB. If you have problem to fix them, upload your test run file, I can fixed for you.

I never figured how to manually edit food/production and usually just modify it by changing tiles and infrastructure. Am I doing it the hard way all along the time?

Sorry, I had the wrong impression, only pop and culture can be adjusted directly.

Can't seem to get the testgame updated right for food + hammers either, so I'll have to work with what I have unless someone can figure it out right.

Anyways.. my updated testgame (forgot to update gold):

Agree to grab PP if we get a GS so probably we could play a short 2-turns set to see

Click to expand...

Sounds like a plan. I think we can get that going pretty quickly.

I also aggree we might as well get started on Music for the 2 turns, since we want the GA anyways.

As far as trades. We could do it right away if we want, I guess. We could get Feud from Meh (Aest+Cur+Math+Map+50g) and Theo from Sal or Just (would be easier to get a good price from Just, maybe, like Aest+Curr for Theo+his gold)

Initial worker priorities like duckweed suggests seems like a good plan.

In Delhi. Do we start MoM right away (leaving Monasteries to be 1-pop whipped into OU later?)

In Bom+Pati. We want to start whipping Maces ASAP, right? I suppose whipping a few out in Vijay can't hurt either

EDIT: Where do we want the Tao Misionnary? Straight to Delhi or pass by Varan to get a TM there after Uni? (or anywhere else?)

Bugg123 said:

I also aggree we might as well get started on Music for the 2 turns, since we want the GA anyways.

Click to expand...

Or Compass. I guess Harbours should be the next buildings in Agra / Lahore, after the Courthouses.
If we have time to get Music first, then fine. If not, then I'd favour Compass.

Bugg123 said:

Initial worker priorities like duckweed suggests seems like a good plan.

Click to expand...

Maybe put the 5 workers on the Plantation for a turn, and then leave only one to finish the job... If we want the 2 plantations done + 2 roads on desert, then it would gain us 4 worker turns in that area.
No big deal if we split them right away, though.

Bugg123 said:

In Delhi. Do we start MoM right away (leaving Monasteries to be 1-pop whipped into OU later?)

Click to expand...

Duckweed will tell you how he intended to do this, but, as I see it,
Delhi is big enough to work all its mines even if we whip it, so
--> getting the multipliers asap is a good thing. Maxing the overflow into the MoM, of course.

Bugg123 said:

In Bom+Pati. We want to start whipping Maces ASAP, right? I suppose whipping a few out in Vijay can't hurt either

Click to expand...

If Vijay grows, it will work farms or hire an engineer... So, I guess whipping would be alright.
Typically, I'm bad at this so I'm interested to see your way of whipping an army. Anyways, here's what I'd do :
I think Vijay has its best production capability at size 6, working 2 fp farms, horse, marble, cows, mine. It has 5 food surplus, meaning it grows to size 7 in 5 turns.
--> I'd do 1pop whips at size 7 to keep it size 6 (timing according to food reserve and overflow). Happiness isn't really an issue, as I see things. Maybe with Maces 2pop whips are better, but I fear the city isn't food rich enough for this (add another 5 turns to grow from 7 to 8 if it works the grass farm).


I can't think of anything else relevant for your set, Bugg
(anything that hasn't been adressed, yet)


Oh ! I can :
@ 2 turns pre set :
Obviously ok with me ! Or isn't it obvious ?

And good luck with the plan !

BornInCantaloup said:

Or Compass. I guess Harbours should be the next buildings in Agra / Lahore, after the Courthouses.
If we have time to get Music first, then fine. If not, then I'd favour Compass.

Click to expand...

Courthouses won't be ready for a while, I think, so no need. If we're lucky we can trade for compass a bit later. Music-> If GS then PP. 5 turns passed, if no construction available, get that finish music when needed then Compass->Optics->Nationalism (Hopfully ready by OU completion).

BornInCantaloup said:

Maybe put the 5 workers on the Plantation for a turn, and then leave only one to finish the job... If we want the 2 plantations done + 2 roads on desert, then it would gain us 4 worker turns in that area.
No big deal if we split them right away, though.

Click to expand...

Don't think we need to worry too much about plantations. We do need to get workers to Delhi, while roading could be delayed, so I don't mind keeping 3 workers for plantation for a few turns before shipping some off for more roading (but it's a bit tight on the roading towards Gondar for troop movement if we want that up)

BornInCantaloup said:

If Vijay grows, it will work farms or hire an engineer... So, I guess whipping would be alright.
Typically, I'm bad at this so I'm interested to see your way of whipping an army. Anyways, here's what I'd do :
I think Vijay has its best production capability at size 6, working 2 fp farms, horse, marble, cows, mine. It has 5 food surplus, meaning it grows to size 7 in 5 turns.
--> I'd do 1pop whips at size 7 to keep it size 6 (timing according to food reserve and overflow). Happiness isn't really an issue, as I see things. Maybe with Maces 2pop whips are better, but I fear the city isn't food rich enough for this (add another 5 turns to grow from 7 to 8 if it works the grass farm).

Click to expand...

I think we'll get ready for about ~300AD DOW on Zara. If the testgame gives the right impression, it won't be much of a war either It doesn't even look like we need Theocracy to do anything, but it won't hurt
Happiness will be an issue in Pata, other than that it won't be.

But we'll get to the whipping issues in the next plan.

Just some points for these 2 turns:
- Start whipping in Bombay right now (which I think I should this turn) and in Vijay next turn (I could do Pata next turn too, but that can wait, I don't care).
- Calcutta starts whipping in ships asap (starting with trireme this turn). Can also do a spy or 2 before completing ships. Other spies from Lib+Uni cities.
- Workers: keep 3 to kickstart plantation, or just keep one and let him slow it up.
- MoM now, or whip Monastery into MoM next turn?
- Delhi workers finishes cottage, then starts chopping in MoM/prechop for OU (if necessary)
- Missionary to Varan or Delhi (or elsewhere)

EDIT:
- And so I proceed with the tech-trades? (or do you have better suggestions) :
"We could get Feud from Meh (Aest+Cur+Math+Map+50g) and Theo from Sal or Just (would be easier to get a good price from Just, maybe, like Aest+Curr for Theo+his gold)"

Generally I'll try to maximize overflow and whip when regrow is quickest, but can't guarantee I get it 100% right

Will get to timing of spies vs army (if we want max discount on spy-mission (only need 20-30%, I guess) in Aksoum). If this is the only city to revolt, maybe 3-4 spies is enough. (I suppose after the war transport-duties are done, we ship a spy with an upgraded trireme to barb-island)

We want 1 Trireme, 5 (or 6?) Galleys, ~5Catapults and ~15 maces still? (In the testgame, that's plenty of troops) (8-10 maces+spies for Aksoum (keeps moving towards spain), 5-7 maces+catapults for Gondar, catches up in aksoum and boats over to spain later)

Maybe trade for Theo first and then use that for Feudalism the next turn?

Tao Missionary is for Delhi.

Monasteries whips overflow into OU (along with a few chops).

>Start on Monastery then switch to MoM.
Whipping: as long as the best tiles are worked I don't mind 1/2-whips. 2-pops will be faster in general but I guess Vijay can use a few 1-pops.

Maybe trade for Theo first and then use that for Feudalism the next turn?

Click to expand...

I guess that's an option, but it shouldn't really matter with the stuff we're trading away anyway, I think?

I'll easily get lost in the trading-shuffle, though, which is why I'm asking

Tech -- We can research (1 or 2??) turns into PP, so that we can complete PP immediately if a GS pops.

Trade -- I don't mind to trade away mono techs such as Col, MC is also fine, but I don't like to give cash even only 50g. kossin's suggestion is good.

Tao missionary -- for Delhi and only Delhi needs it.

City build and tiles:

riverside Cot>Farm>Mine>cot in Delhi, other cities Food/hammer tile 1st (1F=2H)

Delhi produces Monasteries to 1 turn of completion and then switches to MoM, only whip 1 turn before we can start OU.
Vij, can only do 1pop whip, so 2 macemans per 3 turns.
Bombay -- 2 or 1 pop whip is fine
Cal -- can whip a trireme this turn, send it east to kill the barbarian galley 1st. Edit, we probably need more galleys if we want the war to be very efficient.
Pat -- only do 2 pop whip and can whip it this turn, if too much overflow, put it to a temple, the whip anger is too high in Pat.
Agra -- consider to start a HM this turn and 2pop whip it, so that we can do 3pop whip of CH next, otherwise, it needs 8pop to whip.
Lah -- can also contribute a HM, the earlier we spread HM to our empire, the earlier we can adopt HM

Worker move -- note: we put several turns of cot on the grassland tile 2W of Delhi.

Edit: I'd like to adopt Theology for 5 turns, level 3 Maceman is much better than level 2 when against LB, also level 3 cat is double efficient on bombard.

I was just thinking not to trade MC untill after the War, but I suppose we won't really face Triremes from Izzy regardless?

Ok. I suppose for the first 2 turns we can do:

T175:
Research to PP (@100%, 2 turns is fine with a GS we need a slight partial to finish it T178)
Trade for Theology+105g from Just for Aest+Curr

Workers:
2 Workers start plantation
3 Workers move 2S (road)

Cities:
Pati+Bombay whip Mace
Calcutta whip Trireme (overflow to Galley)
Agra starts HM
Lahore starts HM (whipped T177)

Units:
Missionnary moves towards Delhi (through Varan)
Galley returns to Lahore to pick up 2 HM later.


T176:
Trade for Feud from Meh for Theo + stuff

Workers:
3 workers move to 1N2W Delhi+Cottage
1 worker moves to 2nd Hill near Hyder

Cities:
Pati, Bombay->Mace
Vijay Whip Mace
Agra Whip HM


T177:
Get a GP, stop, upload
(I'm holding off whipping forge untill T177 in Madras

T175, we're whipping an engineer in Pataliputra.
I wonder if it's better to wait for T176 or not. If we whip on T175 (testgame), the city will regrow 1 pop immediately.
That may delay the next maces, though... so it is prolly a bad idea.


Other than that, I'm ok with your plan, Bugg

@Bugg123
OK with your plan.

Can't check now but it looks fine from what I remember so feel free to play.

Eeek...
Awkward. I loaded the 25AD OFFICIAL save to check what civic we're in (Pacifism ? Have we revolted into it yet, is it possible to do so right now or do we have to wait ?)...

And the game is asking plenty of questions...
I feel uneasy about it Not sure if answers affect the validity of the save or not.

- Do you want to adopt Pacifism ?
--> Selected Let me check the big picture, then Exit the civic screen.

- What tech do you want to research next ?
Selected nothing... I kept the game on standby.

I didn't expect this... That's why I'm stressed each time I load the official save.
- Does it have any importance what I select ?
- If yes, what shall I select ?
- Are there any further traps ?

ps : yes, I realize Bugg might be playing the set right now. Sorry for the trouble
ps2 : additionnal question : how come the save starts as if it was an autosave for 25AD ?

@BIC:

Not at my Civ-computer right now, but will try to get it done before I go to bed.

Do not revolt into anything (We're not in Pacifism), that would affect the state of our game (I suppose). Selecting tech research doesn't matter.

And I don't know what you mean "as if it was an autosave". It's saved at the beginning of the turn before any action is taken, so we get the select tech, new civic avail etc right then because Philo has just been completed.