SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

[Bugg123]

@kossin:

I don't think there are actual axes completed in the plan. The one axe mentioned completes as a maceman the turn after this turnset.

MoM in Delhi will require more chops. Maybe we'd be better off chopping in OU and Taj in Delhi and let Bombay do the MoM thing (as per the current plan), I don't know.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

You've got my approval to move along, DingDing

There may be more discussion about the micro, but that's not what I can contribute a lot on (meaning you'll still have my vote to play the set if you modify some minor stuff).
As I said, I just prefer Lib+Uni in Pataliputra because I can't see a reason to delay this. But, well...

I think it's about time we play the end of the set

 

[dingding]

@your plan

Some different thoughts

T163 -- I'm so confused, what on earth does the FW in the galley come from? I thought it's the one from gold city, but it's not since you mentioned another one.

You didn't check the save? I loaded anther FS on the island to help the initial FS finish the road earlier (so free Galley earlier).

T164 -- I prefer to start and whip a lib and then Univ in Pat. We have time to produce units.

In the revised plan, Pata is ready to spam Macemen as soon as Machinery is finished. Even we can build 5 Macemen within 10 turns here. We have time to produce units but isn't it better to make it ASAP?

The Libra+Univ cost another 5 pops and 2 angers. We can afford either the pops nor the angers considering a massive whipping to spam units later. Furthermore the "weakest link" of building OU is not Pata but other cities.


T166 -- I'd use the Confu missionary for the crab city since it needs more infras.

It was written in the plan.

T167 -- I'd use the Hindu missionary on other city than Del such as Var and whip new Hindu missionaries from there since I don't like Delhi to produce even a single missionary for now.

There will be only Delhi which needs to benefice from Pacifism after the war. Moreover, given that the actual mission of Pata is to spam units and its mission after-war is to build Libra+Univer, adding 2-pop whipping and 1 additional anger in Pata for a 60h missionary is burdensome, we don't have much happiness left.

So based on the assumption that another hindu missionary is needed, which is not true, we can make it in Delhi instead of Pata, which can put its pops on Maceman. It's just a question of selecting Delhi/Pata to produce Maceman/Missionary.

T168 -- I prefer Cal and Bombay start Barrack and skip lib and MoM since the units from these 2 cities are close to be loaded to Galleys. Also I prefer MoM in Delhi to use the GP points of MoM. The 6 cities for producing Universities in my mind are Delhi, Pat, Var, Banglore, Madras, and Hyde.

Calcutta and Bombay have a common big disadvantage: they are not productive.

Calcutta working on 1Fish and 1Horse is about 12hpt; Bombay, after Vijay taking the horse, has about 12hpt as well. That's 9 turns a Maceman compared to 2-3 turns a Maceman in Pata/Vijay/Delhi. Barrack is a very heavy investment with a bad pay-back in these two cities because they can't even produce many units actually.

About MoM in Bombay, the purpose is to free Delhi to do something more valuable because it doesn't really matter where we get MoM. The +6 GPP from MoM is not that useful because it's it's GA point. Compared to 600h and -6 GAP, I favor the latter and save the forests for OU. If more GPP is really wanted, Pantheon in Delhi is the perfect choice bringing +17 GPP, or even turn a pop into spe will do that.

My cities for OU is Delhi, Varan, Madras, Hyder, Calcutta and Pata Compared to yours (Delhi, Pat, Var, Banglore, Madras, and Hyde). I think the weakest link of your choice, Bangalore the 2 clam city, is weaker than that in my choice (Calcutta). Yes the weakest link in my choice is Calcutta, that's also why I accelerate the Librea+Univer there.

Answer in Black.

@ All:

Vote 1:
I think it's not bad for us to vote the 6 cities for OU which needs a long-term planning (attention I changed the city names in the test game according to the real game. Now the 2-clam city is Bangalore and the Fish+Deer city is Madras):

My vote: Delhi, Varan, Madras, Hyder, Calcutta and Pata
Duck vote: Delhi, Pat, Var, Banglore, Madras, and Hyde
BIC vote: Delhi+Bombay+Pata+Varan+Calcutta+Agra/Madras

Vote 2:

It mainly depends on the previous vote in fact: Starts Libra+Univer in Pata?

My vote: No (Reasons above)

In the revised plan, Pata is ready to spam Macemen as soon as Machinery is finished. Even we can build 5 Macemen within 10 turns here. We have time to produce units but isn't it better to make it ASAP?

The Libra+Univ cost another 5 pops and 2 angers. We can afford either the pops nor the angers considering a massive whipping to spam units later. Furthermore the "weakest link" of building OU is not Pata but other cities.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Answer in Black.

@ All:

Vote 1:
I think it's not bad for us to vote the 6 cities for OU which needs a long-term planning (attention I changed the city names in the test game according to the real game. Now the 2-clam city is Bangalore and the Fish+Deer city is Madras):

My vote: Delhi, Varan, Madras, Hyder, Calcutta and Pata
Duck vote: Delhi, Pat, Var, Banglore, Madras, and Hyde
BIC vote: Delhi+Bombay+Pata+Varan+Calcutta+Agra/Madras

Vote 2:

It mainly depends on the previous vote in fact: Starts Libra+Univer in Pata?

My vote: No (Reasons above)

Oooops, I forgot I mentionned my opinion about where to build universities. I'll change that right away !!
I can guess we will never build a university in Bombay.

Vote 1 :
Delhi, Pataliputra, Varanasi for sure //
Then, I'll wait a bit to chose between Calcutta and the 3 food cities : Madras, Hyderabad and Bangalore. If we build the Statues Moai soon in one of those 3 last cities, then a university in Calcutta makes sense. If we don't, I guess the 3 food cities are faster than Calcutta. Plus, Calcutta could be used for military prod whereas the other 3 cities couldn't.

Vote 2 :
Start libra+univer in Pata. Not units.
DingDing's argument makes sense, but the micro of future sets will be much simpler if we already have the multiplier buildings.

 

[kossin]

Delhi: multi-tasking
Bombay: hammers
Vijay: hammers
Patali: food
Varanasi: commerce/semi-food
Calcutta: hammers (weak)
Madras: food
Hyde: food (weak hammers later)

We have 2 goals:
1- fastest Oxford possible
2- fastest war buildup possible

My preference is for food cities to build Library+University as their high food output hints at high pop thus more happy thus less whips.

Our hammer cities should devote themselves to making Maces. However a good question now raises: how many Barracks do we need? If we allow the cities that already have barracks to get most of the catapults then Maces can be allowed to gather their experience from 0 (but a few could be useful at 3xp).

Bangalore iIrc is the weak link in Library+University production. (it should skip Forge imo).

The votes so far are the same except:
Calcutta<->Bangalore

imo: Bangalore wouldn't contribute much to the war effort while Calcutta will help.

It delays OU slightly (Hyderabad is also lagging on Lib+Uni) but accelerates war.

Lib+Uni in Patali = ~15bpt. In my last test the military buildup finishes about at the same time (maybe a bit later) that the 6 universities are done. So why pay for units ahead of time while we can get an extra 15bpt for "free".

1) Delhi, Patali, Varanasi, Bangalore, Madras, Hyderabad

2) Start Lib+Uni right away

@BIC
imo Moai should only be built to cash on failure gold. It's actual usefulness from now to the end of the game would barely offset its cost I think.

~~~~

New test game: I'm up to 500BC but don't have further much time today.. tomorrow might be it though.

 

[Duckweed]

Answer in Black.
T163 -- I'm so confused, what on earth does the FW in the galley come from? I thought it's the one from gold city, but it's not since you mentioned another one.

You didn't check the save? I loaded anther FS on the island to help the initial FS finish the road earlier (so free Galley earlier).

No, I did look at the save, but I did not run any test for your last plan. I mentioned that so I did not put any comment on your worker move and tile management since I trust you and others who run the test. Otherwise I would say no to it since there's no hurry to check the island and it was a waste of worker force while we were really short at the moment.

Answer in Black.
T164 -- I prefer to start and whip a lib and then Univ in Pat. We have time to produce units.

In the revised plan, Pata is ready to spam Macemen as soon as Machinery is finished. Even we can build 5 Macemen within 10 turns here. We have time to produce units but isn't it better to make it ASAP?

The Libra+Univ cost another 5 pops and 2 angers. We can afford either the pops nor the angers considering a massive whipping to spam units later. Furthermore the "weakest link" of building OU is not Pata but other cities.

A simple counter argument, what's the benefit of producing units before lib and univ if they are needed eventually?

Answer in Black.
T167 -- I'd use the Hindu missionary on other city than Del such as Var and whip new Hindu missionaries from there since I don't like Delhi to produce even a single missionary for now.

There will be only Delhi which needs to benefice from Pacifism after the war. Moreover, given that the actual mission of Pata is to spam units and its mission after-war is to build Libra+Univer, adding 2-pop whipping and 1 additional anger in Pata for a 60h missionary is burdensome, we don't have much happiness left.

So based on the assumption that another hindu missionary is needed, which is not true, we can make it in Delhi instead of Pata, which can put its pops on Maceman. It's just a question of selecting Delhi/Pata to produce Maceman/Missionary.

That's a unilateralism point. We want Hindu in every cities eventually and more urgent in major cities. The earlier we spread them to our empire, the earlier we can take the benefit from adopting Hindu. Why only Delhi, how could you skip Pat, and the Fish/Deer city as well?

T168 -- I prefer Cal and Bombay start Barrack and skip lib and MoM since the units from these 2 cities are close to be loaded to Galleys. Also I prefer MoM in Delhi to use the GP points of MoM. The 6 cities for producing Universities in my mind are Delhi, Pat, Var, Banglore, Madras, and Hyde.

Calcutta and Bombay have a common big disadvantage: they are not productive.

Calcutta working on 1Fish and 1Horse is about 12hpt; Bombay, after Vijay taking the horse, has about 12hpt as well. That's 9 turns a Maceman compared to 2-3 turns a Maceman in Pata/Vijay/Delhi. Barrack is a very heavy investment with a bad pay-back in these two cities because they can't even produce many units actually.

About MoM in Bombay, the purpose is to free Delhi to do something more valuable because it doesn't really matter where we get MoM. The +6 GPP from MoM is not that useful because it's it's GA point. Compared to 600h and -6 GAP, I favor the latter and save the forests for OU. If more GPP is really wanted, Pantheon in Delhi is the perfect choice bringing +17 GPP, or even turn a pop into spe will do that.

My cities for OU is Delhi, Varan, Madras, Hyder, Calcutta and Pata Compared to yours (Delhi, Pat, Var, Banglore, Madras, and Hyde). I think the weakest link of your choice, Bangalore the 2 clam city, is weaker than that in my choice (Calcutta). Yes the weakest link in my choice is Calcutta, that's also why I accelerate the Librea+Univer there.

I told the reason, the units from Cal is closer to the battlefield. As for MoM, Bombay can contribute quite a few units without MoM, HG will be completed soon, what do you want to build in Delhi before OU is available??? MoM is a good fit. We don't need to chop the forests for MoM, we'd better slowly build MoM and chop the forests for OU. Why GA point is not good? we need a GA for golden age and we can always save them for the victory condition.

About the vote, your vote2 is no need since everyone expressed his opinion on it. Also You did not need to reply my post of #1 and #3 since Bugg123 answered for you.

Please read all posts carefully and think about other people's points calmly. I usually don't say everything in the 1st post since I have thought people will understand it just with some hints and clues and I'm lazy to write too much. Everyone will make mistakes and be wrong about something. However, some mistakes can be avoided easily if you paid attention to what others mentioned.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

1) Delhi, Patali, Varanasi, Bangalore, Madras, Hyderabad

@BIC
imo Moai should only be built to cash on failure gold. It's actual usefulness from now to the end of the game would barely offset its cost I think.

No Moai --> My vote goes to the 3 food cities. Same as The Duck and Captain.


You're right to talk about Barracks, Kossin. With Maces against Zara's Archers, we don't need super promoted units (or are we waiting for longbows ?)... I guess that all comes down to how many units we build in each city :
- A city like Calcutta wouldn't contribute heavily to the war effort, hence no need for barracks. That's probably the same for Bombay.
- In Vijay they're needed.
- In Pali, that can be discussed ! It could be worth it if we only look at the number of units we build... OTOH Pali should not keep on building units after this war. Calcutta, Wheat city, Bombay, Vijay, we'll have plenty of sites for this. If we don't need the promotions right now because of siege+tech advantage, then maybe we don't need Barracks here. If we face longbows, I guess we can afford the barracks.

--> 1 Barracks in Vijay and .33 in Pali.


ps : you're crazy about that testgame. It's a great asset but, still, crazy...
Thanks, I guess. And don't forget your DR !!

 

[Duckweed]

^We'll face LB from Zara for sure and very possible from Izzy too, hence barrack is needed.
Edit: Cal can skip barrack and let it focus on navies.

 

[Bugg123]

choices, choices...

I'm sure both dingding and duckweed have played their way on to the war with Zara+Izzy, so both will probably get it done. My thoughts:

Barracks: I aggree we do need them and that the (mainly) ship-site can skip. (reasons in duckweed's recent post)

Lib+Uni: The discussion seems to be Banga vs Calcutta. I think I'll stick with Bangalore for Lib+Uni. (Calcutta is set to contribute more to war than Banga right now).

Pata: I think Lib+Uni first. We'll need army+lib+uni from this city, so I'm not sure why we want to pay for the army upfront, rather than getting the bpt (like kossin).

MoM: To have Bom focus on units (and put trees into units) while Delhi continues wonderspam (and skips barracks) is ok with me.

@kossin:
Appreciate the effort you put into the testgame

On another note: I'll be off in a few hours, and should return on sunday.

 

[dingding]

Lib+Uni in Patali = ~15bpt. In my last test the military buildup finishes about at the same time (maybe a bit later) that the 6 universities are done. So why pay for units ahead of time while we can get an extra 15bpt for "free".

I don't know how you did this. Considering the production of the whole empire is no more than 0.66-0.75 Maceman per turn, saving 3 Maceman is 4-5 turns earlier of the war.

 

[dingding]

@ Duckweed:

I spent half an hour to reply to your #1106 but the server lost it.
I don't bother retyping the whole stuff any more because it doesn't matter now.

@ all:

I'm quite disappointed about the discussion ambiance. I like that everyone shares his own opinion but it seems that it's missing calm here and the discussion is way out of line.

Another reason is that I want to be freed from Civ 4 to get a life. I think it's time to stop being nerdy like this any more.

So, I decide to quit this SGOTM and also Civ 4. A big sorry for kossin, you are so kind of restarting a new test game. I'll miss you.

Good luck everyone!

 

[kossin]

dingding,

I also wanted to address the atmosphere of the discussion in the last few pages.

re: army buildup
I was very very very generous with the whip... (which is why I said maybe a little later)

Désolé de te voir partir, je te souhaite une bonne vie... si jamais tu as le goût de terminer ta partie avec Gandhi de conquête cependant...

@all
Cheap shots are unacceptable... I'm not going to point fingers but this is a bloody game and should be fun for everyone. Mistakes happen and we shouldn't pull each others' hair for them.


@Duckweed
Awaiting your 15-turns plan I guess.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Sorry you feel bad, DingDing.
I wish you stayed and enjoyed the game and the discussion and all.

Maybe we can find some kind of compromise to stick a high level team together until the end of the game ?
Maybe something along the lines of : less focus on performance, more focus on the play agenda ?
And make an effort to be nice with each other, even when we disagree.

I'd like to think we aren't forced to all invest tens of hours into this game and still play it decently while having fun.

If your decision is no doubt truly really made, like for sure and no come back, croix de bois, croix de fer, si je mens je vais en enfer, then...
Stage, études, boulot...
Bonne chance ! Bon courage !
Say "Hi" if you come by.

 

[Duckweed]

@dingding

I'm sorry that if there are some inappropriate expression in the replies. I have felt very hard to convince you on many things which are not difficult for others to accept. In my opinion, a good player like you can easily judge what is better if think it carefully and calmly. I also wish you can stay and enjoy the game and the discussion.

@kossin
I wish dingding could change his mind easier this time.

 

[kossin]

Better to move along. He made his choice and we have to keep on playing to meet the schedule. Should he change his mind, then we will adjust accordingly but for now I will assume this is the last post from him.

I will not have much time throughout July-August so I'd like to get as much done as possible now.

 

[kossin]

Well... it's hard to have everything follow suit in 2 different games.
For one, the AI play very differently and they sometimes do stupid things (see Justinian as Hindu - I erased all Hindu traces and he still won't go back to Judaism the idiot).

EP's are all messed up and AI techs aren't the way they should be but the only way to control that is to vassal them and direct their teching for 100+ turns, which I didn't want to bother with.

All our cities are 100% to the real game however, which is what really counts. The landmass should be pretty correct as well, I didn't bother fixing AI city sizes and religious spreads as that will change too much anyway.

Lastly, I added markers via WB (so they can't be removed normally) to make it easier to distinguish between the test game and the real game (it could get confusing...).

Maybe now I can go back to playing and testing

 

[Duckweed]

Thanks for the test game. kossin!

All right, some of the issues have been discussed and determined and there are a few more. The detailed plan will follow after we come with an agreement.

Agra(CH->Missionary)
Lah(Gra->LH->CH)
Hyde(Gra->LH->Lib->Univ)
Banglore(Gra->LH->Lib->Univ)
Var(Lib->Univ->Spy/Missionary)
Pat(Lib->Univ->Bar->Maceman)
Madras(LH->Forge->Lib->Univ)
Vij(HE->Macemans)
Bombay(Bar->Maceman)
Del(Univ->HG->MoM)
Cal(1Tri->Galleys)

CM to Hyde
HM to Var
Galley either goes to the mysterious island after unload the CM or stays for the war?
Eastern WB to whale tile
FWs focus on farms around Vij and Bombay and then connect road, this include the FW on deer tile

 

[kossin]

It is my opinion that we need a spy to look at the mysterious island. The second city is clearly landlocked behind the first so unless the mapmaker decided to be generous all of a sudden we won't get the full picture. Galley can stick around for the war.

Move the western wb 1-tile at a time until we are clear of the 'danger' zone (meaning where the barb galley is).

Agree with your propositions otherwise.

 

[Duckweed]

Toyed around the diplomacy and found something interesting. Do we want to do this?

Toku -- Cur<->stop trading with Sal + 40g
Izzy -- cancel horse deal, gift Aes, Marble<->2g
Saladin -- Horse<->Marble
Zara -- Aes<->WM+20g

We can anticipate 1 or 2 free wonders from Izzy and Zara

 

[kossin]

Toyed around the diplomacy and found something interesting. Do we want to do this?

1 Toku -- Cur<->stop trading with Sal + 40g
2 Izzy -- cancel horse deal, gift Aes, Marble<->2g
3 Saladin -- Horse<->Marble
4 Zara -- Aes<->WM+20g

We can anticipate 1 or 2 free wonders from Izzy and Zara

1 - Don't see it being much use... we don't care about Saladin's tech speed and giving Toku Currency for closing borders will advantage him (with our trade routes).

2 - Fine. More hammers in wonders = less hammers in units... might end up facing SoZ though

3 - Fine with 2

4 - Fine also, do we have a gold trade with him? If not gift/sell.