Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

Hashishim's post reminded me that Valve only have what personal information we give them, which essentially amounts to an email address and username.

Unless the anti-Steam crowd wish to claim that Steam is stealing information from your computer, theres nothing even at risk. No debate.

Senethro said:

Hashishim's post reminded me that Valve only have what personal information we give them, which essentially amounts to an email address and username.

Unless the anti-Steam crowd wish to claim that Steam is stealing information from your computer, theres nothing even at risk. No debate.

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I disagree. The way Steam has set up their Subscriber Agreement allows them to update the Agreement at any time, and your ONLY RECOURSE is to cancel your account, and you shall receive no refunds. These are CLEARLY stated in the Steam Agreement, and there is no doubt about any of them. Many companies limit your legal recourse to "binding arbitration"; Steam doesn't even do that. This setup makes me feel that Valve is in the business of giving no rights or protections to the consumer whatsoever. Even if you PROVE to me, beyond any doubt, that Valve will not maliciously collect data today, the fact remains that they can easily change their policies in the future, and consumers like me who paid money will get screwed, and will have no recourse but to forfeit the money we paid. Again, Valve may not be doing bad things now, but if they begin to, I'll be stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't know about those of you who enjoy Steam, but I generally try to avoid entering into such agreements if I can.

And claiming that we already give our information to governments or banks or cell phone companies doesn't make it OK to subject ourselves to the policies of yet another big bully.

But how will Valve get that data? Will they decide they have the right to scan your computer for it? Or will they amend the SSA to require the data be given or else the Steam account will be shut down and somehow avoid all commercial repercussions from this?

These are all comic book villain plots. Sheer malice with no real possibility to profit from it. Their business is selling games and they don't want to harm that.

Senethro said:

But how will Valve get that data? Will they decide they have the right to scan your computer for it? Or will they amend the SSA to require the data be given or else the Steam account will be shut down and somehow avoid all commercial repercussions from this?

These are all comic book villain plots. Sheer malice with no real possibility to profit from it. Their business is selling games and they don't want to harm that.

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It can begin like this:

"Valve may collect aggregate data about user's browsing preferences via the in-game browser"

Gamers will say "well no problem; its aggregate and we'll avoid using the in-game browser"

Then, it could change to "Valve may collect data about user's browsing preferences via the in-game browser"

and then to "Valve may collect data about user's browsing preferences via the system's browser"

And then somewhere else, like in a privacy policy, add something like "Valve may share collected data with its subsidiaries in order to improve the service offered by Steam"

And in a later revision change it to something like "Valve may share collected data with its third party business partners; the privacy policy of said third parties shall apply"

And the third party can have an ambiguous privacy policy.

Valve may be in the business of selling games or whatever else, but just by looking at their Subscriber Agreement, I can tell that they are in the business of leaving no rights for the consumer. Just search for the phrase "may, but is not obliged to" in the Agreement. If Valve was doing honest business, these phrases would mostly be replaced with "shall".

By the way, just because I cannot fathom why somebody is forcing me in a tight position, doesn't mean I'm safe to enter that position. I don't know if Valve will collect data or not, or if it'll be profitable or not, but I'm just uncomfortable with this agreement. It could have been much more relaxed and consumer-friendly, while achieving the same apparent objective: to sell games. It just goes against my instincts.

Senethro said:

Hashishim's post reminded me that Valve only have what personal information we give them, which essentially amounts to an email address and username.

Unless the anti-Steam crowd wish to claim that Steam is stealing information from your computer, theres nothing even at risk. No debate.

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It's not so simple as that.

As a Steam Subscriber, you 'give' them a user name and email address. Beyond that, you have no idea what information they are collecting, except in the occasional pop-up asking if you want to join a hardware survey.

I'd be more than willing to bet that there's information they're collecting that's not explicitly stated up-front; after all, the heat maps of death spots in Half-Life 2 use data that I never gave them permission to collect, unless they buried in a end-user license agreement. I get warnings for outdated drivers occasionally - do they collect that information? I don't know, because they don't tell us anything.

In any case, the idea that the data is aggregate making it no longer a privacy concern is certainly not the case, especially in modern computing where the data collected is becoming so fine-grained. Look at this article as an example: researchers could identify 'anonymous' people simply because of their connections.

I won't try and argue that Steam is a major privacy concern, as different people have different ideas as to what constitutes a major privacy concern (the comments in this thread alone should be proof of that), but I do want to point out that there are risks that very subtle and that you may not be aware of.

Senethro said:

Hashishim's post reminded me that Valve only have what personal information we give them, which essentially amounts to an email address and username.

Unless the anti-Steam crowd wish to claim that Steam is stealing information from your computer, theres nothing even at risk. No debate.

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This is - unfortunately - not true.

Steam collects data (information about hard- and software on your machine) and sends them to the Steam servers. They say that this is done in case of the crash reports (being sent after a crash of the Steam client and/or the game being run by it), yet when are these data collected?
I severely doubt that after a crash of the Steam client any data collection would still be reliable, therefore I have to assume that such collection will be performed beforehand.
Since these data have been up to date, it is very likely that they are collected each time the Steam client is started.

Senethro said:

But how will Valve get that data? Will they decide they have the right to scan your computer for it?

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As pointed out above, they already have made that decision.

Senethro said:

Or will they amend the SSA to require the data be given or else the Steam account will be shut down and somehow avoid all commercial repercussions from this?

These are all comic book villain plots. Sheer malice with no real possibility to profit from it. Their business is selling games and they don't want to harm that.

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They (Steam) by themselves advertise themselves to software companies as data collectors.

Their business may have started as game company, but they have turned into something very different by now.

If you are fine with having your system checked and analyzed, this is your decision. Be fine with it.

But there are others who do not want to have their data collected, too.

And Steam has every means to make your - assumed anonymous - data identifiable:
Your hardware composition is the one thing, next are the traces the in-game browser leaves in the net, they can learn about the times and frequency of your gaming and and and...

Commander Bello said:

This is - unfortunately - not true.

Steam collects data (information about hard- and software on your machine) and sends them to the Steam servers. They say that this is done in case of the crash reports (being sent after a crash of the Steam client and/or the game being run by it), yet when are these data collected?
I severely doubt that after a crash of the Steam client any data collection would still be reliable, therefore I have to assume that such collection will be performed beforehand.
Since these data have been up to date, it is very likely that they are collected each time the Steam client is started.

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That sure is some great baseless speculation you've got that.

As pointed out above, they already have made that decision.

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What does this sentence even mean in this context?

They (Steam) by themselves advertise themselves to software companies as data collectors.

Their business may have started as game company, but they have turned into something very different by now.

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No, they're still in the business of selling games. Or do you have detailed information of a breakdown of their revenue? This isn't like television being in the business of delivering viewers to the advertisers because Steam has a very clear source of income from its subscribers.

If you are fine with having your system checked and analyzed, this is your decision. Be fine with it.

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What exactly do you know to be checked and analysed?

And Steam has every means to make your - assumed anonymous - data identifiable:
Your hardware composition is the one thing, next are the traces the in-game browser leaves in the net, they can learn about the times and frequency of your gaming and and and...

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And what is this paragraph even about? How about telling us instead of trailing off.

Baseless speculation, aspersions and leaving enough gaps for people to see whatever they don't want. All very alarmist.

Senethro said:

Did you miss the part where I said "importance... to Valve?"

And I just plain don't get what the rest of your post is saying.

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Even if it's not of any importance to Valve (which could be, but we don't know): You support an bigger evil with it.

Senethro said:

Hashishim's post reminded me that Valve only have what personal information we give them, which essentially amounts to an email address and username.

Unless the anti-Steam crowd wish to claim that Steam is stealing information from your computer, theres nothing even at risk. No debate.

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They have the times when we play the game, right?

And yes, this is something interesting, you can interpret lots of this into it .

The_J said:

Even if it's not of any importance to Valve (which could be, but we don't know): You support an bigger evil with it.

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Ah, faux-ideology and principles about things that don't matter.

They have the times when we play the game, right?

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What, are they going to blackmail you by telling your wife you were playing at 4am? Are they going to burgle your house if your account logs into a computer in a different timezone from normal?

And yes, this is something interesting, you can interpret lots of this into it .

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You're all doing it. Say what you mean instead of a statement that says nothing while implying something usually accompanied by an emote.

Senethro said:

Ah, faux-ideology and principles about things that don't matter.

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Don't matter for you.
There are persons around here who like their privacy.

Senethro said:

What, are they going to blackmail you by telling your wife you were playing at 4am? Are they going to burgle your house if your account logs into a computer in a different timezone from normal?


You're all doing it. Say what you mean instead of a statement that says nothing while implying something usually accompanied by an emote.

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I've just said, that you can interpet many things in it.

You want an example?
What, if you're playing friday evenings, until late in the night?
What does it say to me?
No friends? No girlfriend? Not on the "hunt" for one? -> The perfect customer for pornographic advertisement.
Playing during thanks giving or during christmas? Seriously, no friends and no family.
Playing during the superbowl? Probably not a good customer for football advertisement.
Not playing during the Wacken Open Air (note: biggest heavy metal concert in germany)? Good customer for heavy metal advertisement.
Your gameplay behaviour changed dramatically? Now playing during lunch time and in the afternoon...and the evening, but before you've only played in the evening? Ah, lost your job maybe?
Playing time decreased dramatically without any reason? New girlfriend, maybe?
Playing time decreased dramatically and you have a competly new IP? Ah, new job and moved your home.

So, playing time and some additional infos (email from a company, tied to an internet connection? So you earn your own money and are probably not a pupil) can be very interesting.

The_J said:

Don't matter for you.
There are persons around here who like their privacy.

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Privacy is good, avoiding Steam because it lets Valve know how good/bad you are at a video game is silly.

I've just said, that you can interpet many things in it.

You want an example?
What, if you're playing friday evenings, until late in the night?
What does it say to me?
No friends? No girlfriend? Not on the "hunt" for one? -> The perfect customer for pornographic advertisement.
Playing during thanks giving or during christmas? Seriously, no friends and no family.
Playing during the superbowl? Probably not a good customer for football advertisement.
Not playing during the Wacken Open Air (note: biggest heavy metal concert in germany)? Good customer for heavy metal advertisement.
Your gameplay behaviour changed dramatically? Now playing during lunch time and in the afternoon...and the evening, but before you've only played in the evening? Ah, lost your job maybe?
Playing time decreased dramatically without any reason? New girlfriend, maybe?
Playing time decreased dramatically and you have a competly new IP? Ah, new job and moved your home.

So, playing time and some additional infos (email from a company, tied to an internet connection? So you earn your own money and are probably not a pupil) can be very interesting.

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How many of those things does Valve advertise?

Ignoring the fact that your suggestions are so low value and yet requiring quite a sophisticated degree of interpretation and understanding that you'd practically need an AI to understand them as no developed world citizen could do it cheaply enough, how does Valve which advertises no product not on Steam turn that into money?

Your data is safe because your data is worthless. Noone is interested in your personal habits.

Now on the other hand there is quite clearly and obviously a means for valve to turn in game death/achievement/completion information into making a better product. Its relevant, pertinent and unambiguous. You put it into your favorite data analysis package and you get something useful. But note that the outcomes say nothing at all about any of the participants.

Its the same old story, follow the money. Criminals want your credit card, governments want a statement of your annual income, companies want to know why their product sucks, noone wants to know what game John Q. Nerd was playing last night. The very least they'd be interested in is what all the JQNs are playing this past month.

its insane that this has not been addressed yet. i watched the civ v stuff from e3 as well as listened to that first podcast and waited to hear someone address the steam issue. "ignore it and itll go away" must be the policy they are going with. it really is sad that they went down this route. its even sadder that they cant sack it up and address the issue that is obviously a very big deal among their most loyal supporters.

Senethro said:

Privacy is good, avoiding Steam because it lets Valve know how good/bad you are at a video game is silly.

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Tell this the progamers, who earn money on matches in south korea .

Senethro said:

How many of those things does Valve advertise?

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Is advertisement only done by Valve ?

Senethro said:

Ignoring the fact that your suggestions are so low value and yet requiring quite a sophisticated degree of interpretation and understanding that you'd practically need an AI to understand them as no developed world citizen could do it cheaply enough,

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this is quite easy.
You can just connect a database with big events to the current gameplay time, and you're done.
Needs some further adjustments, but it's not really a big thing.
I really doubt that googe ad system doesn't have something like this .

Senethro said:

how does Valve which advertises no product not on Steam turn that into money?

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Data can be sold, right?

And steam adds: Would not make much sense to advertise the new soccer game for someone who is playing during the current soccer matches, right?

Senethro said:

Your data is safe because your data is worthless. Noone is interested in your personal habits.

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Right.
But steam doesn't only have my personal habits.
It saves the behaviour of millions of people.
And which company is not interested in what's interesting for their customers (= big mass)?

Senethro said:

Now on the other hand there is quite clearly and obviously a means for valve to turn in game death/achievement/completion information into making a better product.

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Reading directly my mind would also allow them to make the game better.
Yes, this is hyperbole, but it's still right.

Senethro said:

Its relevant, pertinent and unambiguous. You put it into your favorite data analysis package and you get something useful. But note that the outcomes say nothing at all about any of the participants.

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The same do the NSA employees say...
Data mining can be harmful for everyone.
That it's sometimes easy...well...

Senethro said:

Its the same old story, follow the money. Criminals want your credit card, governments want a statement of your annual income, companies want to know why their product sucks

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Maybe think over this row again...you really want to support something like this?

Senethro said:

noone wants to know what game John Q. Nerd was playing last night.

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If the next part of this game series he played is released, then someone is sure interested in it.

Senethro said:

The very least they'd be interested in is what all the JQNs are playing this past month.

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And they know it...

No answer to the question about CIV V / Steam download compatibility if other versions of CIV are already loaded on the same computer?

The_J said:

Tell this the progamers, who earn money on matches in south korea .

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This point is silly.

Is advertisement only done by Valve ?

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Advertisement through Steam is only done by Valve. Habits of specific Steam users is worthless to anyone else as they don't have access to those specific users.

this is quite easy.
You can just connect a database with big events to the current gameplay time, and you're done.
Needs some further adjustments, but it's not really a big thing.
I really doubt that googe ad system doesn't have something like this .

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Google ad system is at the level of word matching and little more sophisticated. You really overestimate what we're able to measure and observe.

Data can be sold, right?

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Aggregate data about STeam user habits and game playing milestones is potentially being offered as a service to publishers Steam distributes.

However, what do you think could be sold?

And steam adds: Would not make much sense to advertise the new soccer game for someone who is playing during the current soccer matches, right?

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What? Oh, yeah, the non-existent live ads that don't exist. Great argument. No, I think they'll just sit in the Steam launch queue for the next time you start Steam along with all the other static ads. Your point doesn't even make sense given the number of countries, timezones, and possible broadcast or internet channels those people have access to through which they might be watching the match. Given that at any point in time most Steam users are not using Steam I think we can be fairly sure that negative usage patterns would be useless.

Whats my point? That you overestimate the ability to collect and interpret data. No wonder you're scared, you really think they can watch you.

Right.
But steam doesn't only have my personal habits.
It saves the behaviour of millions of people.
And which company is not interested in what's interesting for their customers (= big mass)?

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And how is that harmful to you? As far as I can tell its neutral.

Reading directly my mind would also allow them to make the game better.
Yes, this is hyperbole, but it's still right.

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No, its hyperbole and you know its silly.

The same do the NSA employees say...
Data mining can be harmful for everyone.
That it's sometimes easy...well...

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More dots, more not saying your actual point because its too weak to bring out into full scrutiny.

Maybe think over this row again...you really want to support something like this?

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I'm not supporting anything in that line, I'm reiterating that what you're trying to protect is worthless especially in contrast with things like credit card numbers or voting records or things that actually matter and are important privacy issues!

If the next part of this game series he played is released, then someone is sure interested in it.
And they know it...

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And noone is harmed by it.

FNP said:

No answer to the question about CIV V / Steam download compatibility if other versions of CIV are already loaded on the same computer?

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The DVD version is also tied to steam, they will essentially be the same, there are not really 2 different versions.

Senethro said:

This point is silly.

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Right.

Senethro said:

Advertisement through Steam is only done by Valve. Habits of specific Steam users is worthless to anyone else as they don't have access to those specific users.

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Technical question:
Can you buy ads?
Because then it doesn't matter, who is doing the advertisement.

Senethro said:

Google ad system is at the level of word matching and little more sophisticated. You really overestimate what we're able to measure and observe.

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I think you rahter underestimate them.
Besides that: Just checking times against a database with bigger events is not complicated.

Senethro said:

Aggregate data about STeam user habits and game playing milestones is potentially being offered as a service to publishers Steam distributes.

However, what do you think could be sold?

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You've already said it: Aggregated data.
What is included in this data we don't know.
And lack of knowlegde in this field can't be good in any way.

Senethro said:

What? Oh, yeah, the non-existent live ads that don't exist. Great argument. No, I think they'll just sit in the Steam launch queue for the next time you start Steam.

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@ second sentence: Why not? Easy to do.

Senethro said:

And how is that harmful to you? As far as I can tell its neutral.

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The harmfullness depends on the use. If it's used in a neutral way, well, yes, then it's neutral.

Senethro said:

No, its hyperbole and you know its silly.

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Ask in 50 years again.
If you now support "mild" forms of data mining, they'll be able to spread the harder ones more easily.

Senethro said:

More dots, more not saying your actual point because its too weak to bring out into full scrutiny.

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So you disagree that the intelligence services use excessive data mining?
And you disagree that Valve uses data mining?

Senethro said:

I'm not supporting anything in that line, I'm reiterating that what you're trying to protect is worthless especially in contrast with things like credit card numbers or voting records or things that actually matter and are important privacy issues!

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The problems have to begin somewhere.
That all the things you mention are extremly serious, and that Steam is compared to it negligible, doesn't negate the point that it is an issue.

Senethro said:

And noone is harmed by it.

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If i don't want them to know it, then i'm harmed.
Why i don't them to know it, is my problem.
And it was just an example.

Senethro said:

Ah, yes, aggregate information, that well known scourge of privacy.

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Can you please provide me to a link with the minimum aggregation level of the data collected and shared by steam (global, nation wide, federal states - regions, ...). A gropu of more than one can be considered as aggregated (but this will depend on the actual data situation). Or is there a law that sets a minimum number of data cases in the US that data can be defined as aggregated data and is no longer individual data.

Senethro said:

Whats my point? That you overestimate the ability to collect and interpret data.

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Are you willing* to share the base for your - it seems - expert knowledge what kind of data analysis are possible and what not

* i will not request or demand it, it´s your decision

btw: you know, i still wait for my legal binding and complete list of individual informations collected

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Senethro said:

Hashishim's post reminded me that Valve only have what personal information we give them, which essentially amounts to an email address and username.

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it depends on the definition of personal information - or how often shall i post that the IP adress itself is sometime seen (by courts, there can be limitations) as personal information.

The_Coyote said:

Can you please provide me to a link with the minimum aggregation level of the data collected and shared by steam (global, nation wide, federal states - regions, ...). A gropu of more than one can be considered as aggregated (but this will depend on the actual data situation). Or is there a law that sets a minimum number of data cases in the US that data can be defined as aggregated data and is no longer individual data.

* i will not request or demand it, it´s your decision

btw: you know, i still wait for my legal binding and complete list of individual informations collected

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No, its not my job to do so and I don't have the knowledge. I am not a legal or technical representative of Valve software. I'm not even on the right continent and don't know what a federal thing in the US is.

Why don't you ask Gabe Newall? The dude is pretty good about answering emails. You could ask now and stand a fair chance of him responding before Greg.

Are you willing* to share the base for your - it seems - expert knowledge what kind of data analysis are possible and what not.

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This I do know a little about as a biology graduate. When I tell people that they ask me what animals I work with and are disappointed when I tell them I see animals as numbers in a dataset on my computer screen. Its all statistics and surveying. You can't learn anything by looking briefly at individuals, they're too erratic and varied. You follow a single individual over an extended period and hope its behavioural eccentricities are reduced in relation to standard behaviour. This can't be applied to individual internet users because of manpower issues as the observer must necessarily be able to interpret context which computers are insufficient for. If an AdvertisingBot observes you telling a girl "You're so hot" then a basic one will show results with word matches and an impossibly sophisticated one that we aren't yet able to develop might get as far as ice packs, warm weather gear and fever relief medicine instead of the actual relevant product, contraceptives. Computers are stupid.

The alternative is you look at large groups to determine meaningful trends and to find the signal in amongst the noise. This necessarily involves cutting out so much that you're practically anonymised. Theres not enough resolution at this level to see individual little private things that would potentially bruise human egos.

Come on, this is basic Anti-Conspiracy Theory 101. There is insufficient manpower and funds for Them to directly observe you. Its going to take a Turing machine to change this.

I never wanted to say that your are Valve employee, i hope you didn´t read this in my post. I only wanted to say that such a list is missing while imo such a list should exists (does rarely exists and is not a Valve specific thing, but atm Valve is in question). The aggregation level was perhaps a bit nitpicking. But the aggregation level will be important in the future if you really want to answer the question what can be possible or what can´t be done with data. Perhaps some kind of reassignment could be possible already now if other data is available and the aggregation level is very low (only 3 - 5(?) persons pro group). It´s seem thinkable to me, but in most (if not all real world) situation it should still be impossible or (at leat hopeful) too hard to achieve.

And i see/believe you saw individual profiling (you know this is sometimes done by psychologists - but this is no longer "real" statistic) as one problem. Afaik you are right, real profiling is - with the known algorithm - not really possible so far - and if done by humans a really time intensive works. "Profiling" of or identifying groups is more or less standard, but in most cases there won´t be more than 5 - 10 groups for the entire market.

But you shouldn´t understimate the power of models. Unfortunally without knowing the data and computation of a model it´s impossible to say how good and powerful the collected data is and therefore which power the resulting models will have. But eg you could made a simple binomial logit model - the decision to buy a good or not after seeing an ad as dependent variable and some independent variables (other games, region, ...). And now if you are lucky and your independent variables hold enough information you could have a nice prediction model with only minimal (or at least acceptable) error. And the prediction for every user, after the model is computed, can be done quite quickly. And if you had no luck and the independent variables no real informations, you have collected - at least considering this questions - a lot of useless bits.

And of course you should also never understimate the machine learning guys - while in most cases you will have no idea why (more or less some of them are black box algorithm and therefore worthless if you want to understand relationships), you know quite good what will happens. It´s not really rare that such models can have a better prediction abilities than a complex statistic models.

So finally, i would agree that claiming a complex automatic wide scale profiling for a huge number of individuals with the well-known algorithm and models is possible would be a bit over the top. But saying that it´s impossible to create models which can be used to predict individual behaviour (or at least give you a probility for a certain action - what exact will depend on the model) and also provide informations about the relationships between the variables is a bit not up to date. The main question is: How good is the data?

According to 2K Greg: You don't even need the product key once you've registered it with your Steam account. All you need is your username and password.

Although it's advisable to hold on to your product key, as it is one method of providing proof of ownership of your account.

Excuse me, but I queried this issue earlier in this post. I installed a game (Orange Box) and it wouldn't play because my computer was too old. I saved my money and bought a new computer. When I tried to install the game on my new computer, Steam would not allow it. I have answered all their questions: passwords, security questions and, just recently, e-mailed a digital copy of the quick reference card with the activation code. I even offered to send them the original Best Buy receipt.

GUESS WHAT?! I still can't play the game! All they say is the ownership is in dispute because it was downloaded on an entirely different type of computer. My question is, if I purchase Civ V and then have a problem with Steam, will I be able to play the game? 6 months ago, I would have been scratching my head wondering why all this fuss with Steam? The issue with Steam becomes very clear when it affects you. I am not a silly person who lost vital info, and I'm not a hacker, but I am mad as heck over this.