Really furious!

OK looked at the save, excellent set Iustus The warriors seem set to rally the Iroquois area.

As tech path, writing will give us something to build and the scientist slots. Then I like AH like you said to unlock horses, and because it opens up the last worker techs (the wheel and trapping).

ungy said:

So need input:

1. rush or no rush

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I'd say yes, but I would scout him a bit, as Iroquois gets a lot of bonus in forests and iirc their unique unit is early (Iron working?). Might be worth checking what special effect it has

I would wait for a bit more units as well (I am really scared by our lack of ranged. So far I had success starting rushes with 4 melee 4 range, so i am not sure how many melee units are needed to make up for our abscence of range... should get better in later wars though).

2. switch to stonehenge?

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Very cautious about this. I am always astonished at the dates this thing is built. Beside, I may have gotten the pyramids ability wrong (Rusten told me it might work the other way -need to check this for good), and I believe early scientist have higher return than earlier civic. Finally, getting in medieval era thanks to a scientist early has some civic advantages, namely unlocking patronage. Some food for discussion... (for now I prefer mids -> lib)

3. tech writing?

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I agree (a bit more comments just in the beginning of the post )

Cheers,
Raskolnikov

edit1: we may want to sell our marble right away for 300 gold to either chinese, japanese, or even better, the unfortunate Iroquois
edit2: What do you think of letting the south peninsula UNSETTLED (maybe grab the whale tile with some city though), so it keeps spawning barb camps. Letting a unit in the vicinity would allow us to farm units regularly.
edit3: thanks Gyathaar for the convertor tool!

Gyathaar said:

Hmm.. seems like my program must have some kind of bug.. it stripped 8MB of data away from the save that it should not have...

Will identify the bug and upload a new version (will make it strip the growing version string data in the save too that might be a problem in succession games where the save tends to be loaded many times)

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fixed the problem.. new version uploaded

ungy said:

If we switch to stonehenge and get it we can get the discipline promo in 14 turns.

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RRRaskolnikov said:

Very cautious about this. I am always astonished at the dates this thing is built. Beside, I may have gotten the pyramids ability wrong (Rusten told me it might work the other way -need to check this for good), and I believe early scientist have higher return than earlier civic. Finally, getting in medieval era thanks to a scientist early has some civic advantages, namely unlocking patronage. Some food for discussion... (for now I prefer mids -> lib)

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I agree. Are you saying Stonehenge would complete in 14 turns? I somewhat doubt that would be soon enough. The pyramids tends to be lower priority for the AIs and we already have it 1/4 done, I think we should stick with it. That said, if you want to take the risk, we can try it, worst case, we do a bad trade for some gold.

I thought the pyramids made workers build improvements faster. If it does, it is pretty good for us, and if it does not, then it still gives us a little culture and some great person points.

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Teching writing for libraries seems like a good idea. I would not start the great library unless you think the great engineer the pyramids will give us will pop out that quickly, but I think it will take a lot longer.

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Do not forget to somewhat stagnated Berlin to finish the Pyramids quicker, so do not forget to undo that if/when they complete.

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I think it is not at all uncommon to have both Stonehenge and the Great Library completed by 2000 BC, so keep that in mind. I am not sure how many turns that is from 2400 BC, if it the year speed does not change, then it is 40 years per turn, or 10 turns for 400 years. If Stonehenge is 14 turns, then that is 160 years (4 turns) into the risky zone.

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I am not sure we want to take discipline social policy, I think we might want to not buy any more until we can get patronage (which would imply we need to beeline to a medieval tech). Ideally we will be able to buy 2 or 3 social policies immediately as soon as we learn that first medieval tech, getting patronage plus the 20 min faction and the gold bonus to our bribes. Ideally we wait until then to start spending our gold bribing the city states.

(In case you did not know, you can right click the social policy notification to avoid buying it right away)

-Iustus

[Lurker's comment: I thought the pyramids made workers construct improvements faser, not cities build workers faster. BTW - looks like a fun varient, enjoying watcing!]

1. Rush now. OB to check garrison would be nice, but waiting for that could increase losses we take.

2.

I thought the pyramids made workers build improvements faster. If it does, it is pretty good for us, and if it does not, then it still gives us a little culture and some great person points.

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I'm not sure what it does either, but Stonehenge is still better than faster improvements and way better than faster worker construction, especially since workers don't halt city growth anymore.

3. writing is the way forward

1. Rush the sucker.

2. I rate Stonehenge much higher than Pyramids, but it boils down to how likely we are to finish it in time. We've met Egypt haven't we?
I'm fine with either choice, but leaning towards making an attempt.

@Iustus: When I was ingame I think it said it would take 10 turns.

I'm pretty sure Pyramids increases improvement speed and not production speed of workers. If you compare the tooltip for the Pyramids with something like a forge or a workshop you see a clear difference. It would say +50% production with the hammer icon if it influenced building time.

3. Writing is best.

^^Note that unlike civ4, captured wonders do produce culture. (though I get that main benefit of SH are early when it multiplies your culture by 8). No strong opinions even if I feel SH route is more "gambling".

@WillowBrook: glad you are having fun

Rusten said:

2. I rate Stonehenge much higher than Pyramids, but it boils down to how likely we are to finish it in time. We've met Egypt haven't we?

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At this point we're 11 turns to build stonehenge--the 14 turns was to the next social policy. Pyramids is 10 turns. My understanding as well is that improvements are done at twice the speed. But we should have lots of captured workers.

So there's consensus on the rush and writing and it seems like a bit of a split on the wonder. Frankly I don't have a feel for dates, but it just seems like the pyramids are pretty nerfed in this game so I'll plan on making the switch to SH.

I'll play it in the morning

Luker's comment on Pyramids:
They do increase worker improvement building speed by 50% --> this translates into a 1/3 reduction of construction time!! (e.g. it now takes 6 turns instead of 9).
(half the time would mean an increase of 100% in working-speed).

ungy said:

it seems like a bit of a split on the wonder. Frankly I don't have a feel for dates, but it just seems like the pyramids are pretty nerfed in this game so I'll plan on making the switch to SH.

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I guess, the main thing is that pyramids are not that great, but if we switch to stonehedge, we can be beaten by AI and miss both wonders. However, on the long run it's not that important actually.

OK- getting started:

I decide to pull the NW warrior back as I think we're in for some pillaging if we send the entire army to iroquois.

Nobunaga requests pullback:






--hmm didn't realize we were close to him

2360 new barb encampment:






2320 we clear the camp but no unit.


2240 we clear an empty camp to the NW but no unit (can we get a unit if the camp is empty?)

a look at iroquois:






unfortunatelly they have a single mohawk warrior which is an upgraded swordsman.
let's hope it goes wandering

2200 mohawk warrior starts exploring.

We sell incense to iroquois:



Ally with Budapest:




Looks like Iroquois have trouble with China:





we get the "too close to our borders message" I say we mean peace. Does this cause us extra diplo hits if we betray them?




but 2 mohawk warriors--if those don't head out we could have trouble.

[/IMG]

2080 we make another incense trade:




mohawks look like they're leaving
writing in--set research to bronze working

1960 hmm mohawks come back (forest-road for iroquois) we were about to pull the trigger. Now I'm not so sure. Kind of a frustrating dance the last few turns--wait for them to move--then step up and they move back. So the AI isn't totally uselessStonehenge in.

Here's the situation:



the second iroquois mohawk is 1E of the capital.


Actually I don't think we can attack. Those mohawks will go through our units like butter. Maybe pull back and wait for IW or iroquois to send their units away?

RRRaskolnikov said:

I use photobucket.com

Civ 5 produces .tga which photobucket doens't accept so you will have to convert them to jpeg if you use that one.

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how does one do that?
(I do have screenies)

save is here:

You can use the soft provided here.

It's pretty easy to use (even I succeeded ).

edit: Another one

RRRaskolnikov said:

You can use the soft provided here.

It's pretty easy to use (even I succeeded ).

Click to expand...

thanks yes it I can do it anyone can

I would just attack him, it is all about local tactics. If there was a turn where 2 of his warriors were on flatland not in a forest, I would have DOW and attack them both, there is a 33% penalty for being on flatland. He foolishly cleared land for all those farms, that is perfect ground to kill his warriors. If we have 2 in place to attack each, we can kill them before he can retaliate. He may get one of ours on the flat in retaliation, but then ideally we can get his last guy back after that.

It looks like you can also grab one of the workers at his 3rd city as well, if you can grab both the first turn of war, so much the better, if nothing else, can start connecting up the cities with a road.

The first goal of the war should be to take out his roaming military while losing few of ours. If you can get him out of money first so he cannot upgrade his units, that would help of course. Once his cities have no units left, 3 warriors can easily take one.

We are going to take some losses, but we need to get his cities.

-Iustus

Thinking about it some more, we probably want to have 3 on 1 vs those swordsmen (and attack in the open). I think the best tactic would be to move to the open between Berlin and Grand River. Get all our units in position, then DOW and take his two workers, unless he moves one or both of the swordsmen onto the flat, then attack those. We will probably lose one warrior on the northern worker, so we may not want to attack that one, I think is swordsman is close enough to retaliate. In an ideal world, he would move both swordsmen on top of the two workers, then we get the best of both worlds.

We want to have 3 in position to all attack, the first 2 should not die, and the 3rd will finish him.

We are almost to the next policy, I would take Discipline (15% bonus if next to friendly unit). We are halfway to a great general already, once he is in, we will have both bonuses.

I see you can sell Hiawatha marble for 93 gold and 5 gold per turn (and open borders). I would do that right away, we do not want him to have any excess cash. As soon as we DOW, we get our marble back, but he does not get his money back.

Rather than build the library, I think I would finish the pyramids, it has almost half the hammers completed (it is 14 turns vs 13 for library). (Do not sell the marble if we going to build the pyramids though...) If you are willing to stagnate, you can get it down to 10 turns (9 with starvation).

We have a barbarian camp south of Berlin, and one south of Warsaw that we did not clean up, I think we should send at least warrior to get some new recruits.

-Iustus

Just some ideas came up:

I believe, the whole idea about conquering Iroquois is outdated now. He has three cities already, so we won't be able to finish him off by taking his capital. And mohawk warriors are too powerful for us. We'll lose our army, get one city, and, actually, for what reason? Woods make this place quite hostile for us, I can see that he has only dyes, which will be new luxury resource for us (another incense and marble - well, not too much), and he seems to be friendly. I'd say keep him alive and wait until we have our swordsman. Bronze working will be ready soon, and Iron working should be next, I guess. If we are lucky, iron will be reachable, and we have enough gold for upgrades. Then we'll wipe him out in a few turns.

Pyramids are outdated as well. As far as I remember, we already have two workers and they are about to finish farm and plantation. Our cultural borders expand slowly, so two workers will cover any new tiles fast enough. Monument (not build, am I right?) should be the best option after library is finished.

We badly need more cities, 'cause I think that our military is about its limit. Maybe we should buy a settler and build a city somewhere near Copenhagen - I guess from the screen that there are dyes, cotton (?), rivers and a lot of hills = money-making city awaits.

Oh, and also we should consider some research agreements with rich, but not too advanced AI.

Pyramids is half done, with marble, it will build faster than a monument, and give the same culture, plus great engineer points. I still think we should build it. And we can build a monument after, to get twice the culture.

I think we can still beat the Iroquois now, and with his 3 cities, our military count will go way up. I agree it is a risk, but I think we can win it. If not him we need to attack someone else or run out of momentum. We need some money for upgrades as well.

-Iustus

Estarrioll said:

I believe, the whole idea about conquering Iroquois is outdated now.

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Agreed, why would we exchange warriors for cities when we may build settlers but not military?

Iustus said:

Pyramids is half done, with marble, it will build faster than a monument, and give the same culture, plus great engineer points. I still think we should build it. And we can build a monument after, to get twice the culture.

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I totally agree with you - pyramids and monument will be great together. But don't forget that we are not alone. We got lucky with Stonehedge, but luck may change.

Iustus said:

I think we can still beat the Iroquois now, and with his 3 cities, our military count will go way up. I agree it is a risk, but I think we can win it. If not him we need to attack someone else or run out of momentum. We need some money for upgrades as well.

-Iustus

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Again, I agree that a war will save us settler and helps with military upkeep and army limit - but I just don't feel like the Iroquois are the right target. Let's see what others think, and esp. Rusten.