Really furious!

Sorry for being quiet... was kinda busy IRL. Nice round Ungy, are you done or do you want some more turns? You played 11 iirc. Otherwise, Rusten would be up

Personally I am for war, as the situation seems more in our favor than what it could be in some turns (Iroquois has three cities with emperor bonus producing swords already, we can't even promote our warriors before a good amount of turns). And promotions are good.

Iustus said:

(Do not sell the marble if we going to build the pyramids though...)

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Lurker Comment
I'm not at a computer with the game that I can verify this, but I'm pretty sure that you retain the marble wonder bonus even if you trade away the marble.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that ungy was finished and that I'm up.

I've got it, and will look at it and post a plan soon.

Estarrioll said:

Just some ideas came up:

I believe, the whole idea about conquering Iroquois is outdated now. He has three cities already, so we won't be able to finish him off by taking his capital. And mohawk warriors are too powerful for us. We'll lose our army, get one city, and, actually, for what reason? Woods make this place quite hostile for us, I can see that he has only dyes, which will be new luxury resource for us (another incense and marble - well, not too much), and he seems to be friendly. I'd say keep him alive and wait until we have our swordsman. Bronze working will be ready soon, and Iron working should be next, I guess. If we are lucky, iron will be reachable, and we have enough gold for upgrades. Then we'll wipe him out in a few turns.

Pyramids are outdated as well. As far as I remember, we already have two workers and they are about to finish farm and plantation. Our cultural borders expand slowly, so two workers will cover any new tiles fast enough. Monument (not build, am I right?) should be the best option after library is finished.

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I think switch to Pyramids is worth the shot.

I did test the trade marble idea and in fact we keep the bonus. So I should have traded it on my set

As for the iroquois, I think there are two ways it works. One is we catch both swords in the open with 3 warriors each--kind of tough unless they can be baited out to defend his workers. The other is I think if they go off after someone else and we can hit him with all 6 warriors we should be able to take the capital turn 2. Outside his borders they don't get a move bonus in forest but inside they treat as roads. Not sure if it moves to Osinka as it is larger but if so then he should give us the other city for peace.

But the way happiness works in this game I think it's better to found cities than capture them--we'll hit the happy limit soon enough.

Rusten's got it.

ungy said:

As for the iroquois, I think there are two ways it works. One is we catch both swords in the open with 3 warriors each--kind of tough unless they can be baited out to defend his workers. The other is I think if they go off after someone else and we can hit him with all 6 warriors we should be able to take the capital turn 2.

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I agree. If those cases aren't open, we can still raze his third (closest, undefended) city and make peace after killing his swords. Though the returns are way less.

Yeah, apparently marble works differently in ciV. It seems you need it as a workable tile in the city and there's no empire-wide boost.

Opening the save now.

Iustus said:

It looks like you can also grab one of the workers at his 3rd city as well, if you can grab both the first turn of war, so much the better, if nothing else, can start connecting up the cities with a road.

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When are roads worth it? My feeling is that making roads now will cost more than it will bring in. Maybe it's good if we capture all 3 cities as they're pretty densely placed.

Iustus said:

I think we can still beat the Iroquois now, and with his 3 cities, our military count will go way up.

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I don't understand this, maybe I'm missing a ciV feature. How does having more cities increase our military? We're not allowed to build units.

Emperor Peter said:

Agreed, why would we exchange warriors for cities when we may build settlers but not military?

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Yes. The upkeep is annoying, but what do we do if we lose our warriors? A single city state is not enough to fuel a war -- too slow. I would think waiting for swordsmen is better.

I see that the "show yield cheat" is still going strong in ciV.

The plains tile SE of Grand River has 2 hammers, which means it has a resource, no? Does this change anything? Perhaps attack Grand River first?
If it's his iron (which it seems to be as I can't find any other big yields) we could take Grand River promote our units and then attack the capital. Did he have Mohawks before settlings this city?

Or is there some other reason for a tile to have extra hammers this early?

Rusten said:

I see that the "show yield cheat" is still going strong in ciV.

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lol More points for you if you play eyes closed

roads: I feel there will be worth it as his first city is quite close. With that kind of distance between cities (no big gap), TRs should pay for the maint quite fast. If we have spare worker turns, we can also synchronise the road completion so that we don't loose maintenance with no TR.

Iroquois cities: my bet is that Iustus is implying we'll be able to maintain a larger army after that war.

war: your call. True it might get dirty if we loose our warriors, moreso as I got the feeling civ 5 AIs take longer to talk peace.

Good catch with his iron tile btw (I don't think there is any other hidden resource early on -we know horses-).

As far as I know we don't know about horses, but I didn't find any other mysterious tiles at first glance.

Iroquois cities: my bet is that Iustus is implying we'll be able to maintain a larger army after that war.

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Ah, ok. That feature I know.


Edit/Update: Playing today (sunday).

Looking back at the screenshots from ungy's set there are Mohawks before settling Grand River so it's not his (main) source of iron. Could also be horses.

Opened ciV to play, but I'll wait some hours to allow for opinions.

1: Agree to finish Pyramids.

2: Let's cash-rush a settler? I really don't see why this hasn't been done yet (1000 years ago ), it's such an immediate boost paying back right away. We're about to start a more or less useless golden age because we haven't expanded or traded away luxuries.

Reason I didn't play right away is because I'm not sure where to settle. Next to the marble between Berlin and the city state looks good in the short term, but we will get the marble eventually without a city there. Short term gain/benefit is usually the right approach in civ games though. It won't have that many tiles (not counting coast), but it can grow quickly and run some scientists later. It adds another incense which we have plenty of, but being on a pangea map it might still come in handy.

3: I don't feel comfortable attacking with only brutes and no proper way to reinforce, so don't expect any warring unless there's a golden opportunity.

Rusten said:

Reason I didn't play right away is because I'm not sure where to settle. Next to the marble between Berlin and the city state looks good in the short term, but we will get the marble eventually without a city there. Short term gain/benefit is usually the right approach in civ games though. It won't have that many tiles (not counting coast), but it can grow quickly and run some scientists later. It adds another incense which we have plenty of, but being on a pangea map it might still come in handy.

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I suggest to go far north and settle near Copenhagen. Think about it.

Rusten said:

2: Let's cash-rush a settler? I really don't see why this hasn't been done yet (1000 years ago ), it's such an immediate boost paying back right away. We're about to start a more or less useless golden age because we haven't expanded or traded away luxuries.

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Agreed. I did sugest selling out our marble, not sure it was done. How about settling on the marble?

Rusten said:

2: Let's cash-rush a settler? I really don't see why this hasn't been done yet (1000 years ago ), it's such an immediate boost paying back right away. We're about to start a more or less useless golden age because we haven't expanded or traded away luxuries.

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never occurred to me (but just learning the game).
Not understanding that we could trade the marble and keep the bonus definately hurt us--we could have traded it a while ago which would have not only cashed us up but delayed the GA.

Actually Berlin won't ever claim the marble--it's 4 tiles away. So seems like we need a city there sooner or later.

Not the most successful turns.

Warning to other players: Make sure you take screenshots without using the shift key. All my screenshots have ended up like this (no pop-ups):


Did one for testing without the shift key after playing and then it works fine, but I found out too late for this set.


I was counting on my screenshots to tell me when what happened, but now I can not, so writing this report is a pain. Next one will be better.

- - - - - - - - - -

What I can remember:
Sold incense to Iroquois for 110 gold and 6 GPT.
Signed open borders. He seems very friendly with us, we can still find another target.
Sent 2 warriors to encampment south of Berlin.
Sent 2 warriors to encampment SE of Iroquois.
Sent 3 warriors exploring -> 2 warriors towards encampment near Stockholm which was revealed.
City state gave us a scout (revealed nearby encampment this turn).
We missed Pyramids by 1 or 2 turns...........
We found 2 new city states, but they're both cultural.
We found China (the cities).
The encampment near Iroquios wants Vienna eliminated (we don't know where it is -- probably to the east so scout there).
Sold another incense -- this time to England for 300 gold.
Founded Hamburg NE of marble.
The "mystery tile" near Grand River is definitely iron. I saw the workers mining it.
Ramesses is willing to sign a research agreement.
Took out the 2 encampments and got 1 brute.

A joke of a report, but no screens makes it difficult.

I stopped after 8 turns as we just missed the Pyramids. Need to decide what to build next. For me it's between another settler and a library. The benefit of doing a settler now is that it mixes well with our golden age. We want to work the hammer+gold tiles which means no food anyway.

Looks good. I believe I am up?

I will do more scouting and take the encampment. Any ideas where Japan might be? We must have gotten close to them earlier.

A settler during the GA makes sense. The land near us doesn't look to great to me though. I suggest deer/fish/whale/gibraltar. What do you think?

I say we sign the Research Agreement.

Yes, you're up.

Aquiring whale sounds good (it's wanted in Berlin). How much extra food does it give once it's hooked up?

How about settling up by Copenhagen (2x cotton)?
there's also a barb encampment there that is a quest for Copenhagen (maritime)--although Copenhagen is a useless gold duplication.
whales do need sailing and a boat--iroqouis will settle the near incense first so we should be able to get both-or maybe build 2 settlers and leave one for iron?

Rusten said:

Yes, you're up.

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Yes EP, you are up. Estarioll should be on deck.

Aquiring whale sounds good (it's wanted in Berlin). How much extra food does it give once it's hooked up?

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Iirc (which must not be the case ), they provide only gold. Though let's face it, in 5 that's the happy bonus that matters the most as the extra yields provided by ressources (hooked or not) look like a joke...

Will check the save after the foot match (in about 4 hours), though it looks good from other comments. My guess is that a settler is indeed needed if we aren't warring, and as u said it fits well with our happy surplus (both in term of cap and future GA).

Rusten said:

He seems very friendly with us, we can still find another target.

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My feeling is that you can't trust any AI in this game in the sense of civ4. They can backstab without notice. THey basically will obliterate any entity in their homeland continent. No matter what. I haven't seen any other pattern in my (limited though) number of games. It is possible to befriend oversea AI long term though.

Oh, and bravo for your report! Good thing there is a log (ofc, I went through this once, and then started to take notes... )

Cheers,
Raskolnikov

Emperor Peter said:

I suggest deer/fish/whale/gibraltar. What do you think?

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Sounds OK. Though we should make sure it doesn't fogbust the peninsula as we want barb camps there. Moreso because it seems we haven't met any military city-states yet. I might change my settling priority once I (finally) get to open the save.

ungy said:

How about settling up by Copenhagen (2x cotton)?
there's also a barb encampment there that is a quest for Copenhagen (maritime)--although Copenhagen is a useless gold duplication.

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Can't we trade away those particular resources (not sure it works like regular resources)?

RRRaskolnikov said:

Estarioll should be on deck.

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I'm here and waiting for my Great Emperor to do his righteous turns.

ungy said:

How about settling up by Copenhagen (2x cotton)?

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I've been crying out loud - Let us do it!