Steam - love or hate?

Jharii · Oct 26, 2010

Licinia Eudoxia said:
Yeah, I was gonna post here to add that APB was a horrible, horrible disastrous mess. I have a friend who worked for Realtime Worlds (and is now unemployed, naturally), and I watched the whole thing with the morbid fascination one shows for a train wreck. It was very impressive how so many facets of the game went so horribly wrong, from graphics to netcode to community management to PR to accounts to billing.

Or a mid-space, Starfleet starship collision, as it were... :eek:

Jharii · Oct 26, 2010

Thank you tom, for continuing to offer absolutely nothing to this discussion.

You are more than welcome to use your "No, you!" argument style against someone else. I'll save my energy for when my 5 year old uses those same tactics.

Moderator Action: Such comments are inappropriate, please refrain from attacking other members.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Drakarska · Oct 26, 2010

@ Senethro; Your sarcasm aside, yes. I know exactly why my son's acct was closed. It was a Steam mistake, and CS response was..... Indifferent.

@ Jharii; I wasn't referring to the grade itself, but the overall number of complaints for a company billed as "consumer accesability". No matter, I was merely curious. Thanx for the link.

Maniacal · Oct 26, 2010

marc420 said:
Topic needed a poll.

I know the fanboys out here will scream at me, but I hate steam.

I have no intention of yelling at you, and a poll is a cop out and wouldn't show any accurate data (neither does the thread).

ButSam said:
Very annoyed at steam for what seems like common sense. I have logged in online before, but right now I'm somewhere that blocks certain internet content (including something I need to go online in Steam). But when I try to start Steam, it complains that my Username/Password were not stored (even though I checked the box to store it), and therefore it could not log me on in offline mode.

Absolutely ridiculous. I understand requiring one-time internet access, but after that, I should be able to just type in my username/password even if they cannot connect to the steam server.

Re: Bold line: Well yeah then if that place blocks stuff like Steam then don't expect it to work online. Lousy that it won't save your log in information though :/

rbj2001 said:
How about you read the thread you're posting in.

How about YOU read the thread? That entire post was throughily discussed and his problem found. He rebuked his payment with his credit card via Paypal and that ended up setting off VALVe/Steam's credit card fraud protection which froze his account. From what I can tell, the game would have been added to his account (as that happens IMMEDIATELY after purchasing), then he canceled the payment and as such it could appear he was trying to cheat the system to get a free game.

Also, no one in this thread has said that VALVe doesn't have slow a customer service system, I'm well aware it isn't that great, but then again, neither are a lot of companies. But yeah they should improve it, again, though, VALVe is almost always taking extra long to do anything.

Senethro · Oct 26, 2010

tom2050 said:
Wrong, I didn't include the whole text of each lengthy webpage (mods have an issue with doing that), so I took paragraphs out of the page. You see, the length of the post would have exceeded the character limit allowed by CFC, so I had to limit the text count.

Yah-huh, so why did the warning text say what it said?

Yes, it seems they do, and they take action just like mods here do. Difference is, you might lose the ability to enjoy the game you bought. Here on CFC you purchased nothing, so it doesn't matter. Of course, if you buy a Steam game, and make statements like you did, it is indeed that persons fault for losing the game they bought, or being temp banned.

No, they don't.

Go add me to Steam friends, PM me something ridiculously obscene and I will go to a busy public TF2 server and paste it into textchat. Then we'll see if I lose my account.

Drakarska said:
@ Senethro; Your sarcasm aside, yes. I know exactly why my son's acct was closed. It was a Steam mistake, and CS response was..... Indifferent.

Awww come on mang, don't be all like that. At the time it was some of the best proof that Steam was evil and would cancel accounts for no reason. What happened?

tom2050 · Oct 26, 2010

Jharii said:
Thank you tom, for continuing to offer absolutely nothing to this discussion.

You are more than welcome to use your "No, you!" argument style against someone else. I'll save my energy for when my 5 year old uses those same tactics.

You mean you are saving your energy for when you use your tactics against yourself? Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. :cool:

Senethro said:
Go add me to Steam friends, PM me something ridiculously obscene and I will go to a busy public TF2 server and paste it into textchat. Then we'll see if I lose my account.

Well, it's impossible to know exactly what goes on, unless you have worked there and know the exact business model they have and adhere to. If you said something like that and there was the 'Steam moderator' in game, they may do something about it (depending on if the guy feels like it or not). But there probably aren't lots of Steam moderators compared to the number of games and millions of players, so the chances are still very low. Regardless, seems they hold the power to do so according the agreement. And like I said, it probably doesn't happen often at all. So, it's not much of a big deal, and it's only a small (very small) issue.

But I'm not in to 'maybe' making death threats, so I can't agree to what you are asking.

Of course, all subscriber agreements have terms similar to the one Valve does, so really it's even less of an issue (an extremely small issue) that's probably not even worth discussion.

Moderator Action: Please don't troll other members.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Jharii · Oct 26, 2010

Drakarska said:
@ Jharii; I wasn't referring to the grade itself, but the overall number of complaints for a company billed as "consumer accesability". No matter, I was merely curious. Thanx for the link.

Just trying to do my part, even though it does offer information that counters my viewpoint. Not that I had a point other than my experience with Steam has been excellent, I just wanted to see actual information that certain people would not provide, even when asked nicely. But I liken those counter-arguments to Newton "discovering" gravity by an apple falling on his head.

And yes, I was curious as well.

Jharii · Oct 26, 2010

tom2050 said:
... Maybe I don't understand ...

Yeah, I am under the impression that you say that a lot.

Good day, tom.

Moss · Oct 26, 2010

Moderator Action: Back on topic guys, and quit the needless bickering please.

Maniacal · Oct 26, 2010

tom2050 said:
Difference is, you might lose the ability to enjoy the game you bought. Here on CFC you purchased nothing, so it doesn't matter. Of course, if you buy a Steam game, and make statements like you did, it is indeed that persons fault for losing the game they bought, or being temp banned.

*clicks view post button, immediately regrets decision*

VALVe does NOT monitor ANY ingame behaviour that isn't related to cheating or statistics collection. That is entirely the realm of server administrators and other players (all users). Otherwise they will likely have banned most of the people I play with for inappropriate conduct, bad language, porn sprays, etc etc. And then there are the infamous website servers...

EDIT: Apparently the specific website I mentioned has been censored. But regardless, its the most infamous/

Server admins are NOT paid by VALVe in any way and more than likely have more and actually gripes with VALVe than you do (updates keep breaking all the usermods, every single damn time).

EDIT2: Agreed, stop feeding the unconstructive argument.

Senethro · Oct 26, 2010

tom2050 said:
You mean you are saving your energy for when you use your tactics against yourself? Maybe I don't understand what you are saying.

Let me try and help you tom. This is an example of what he is referring to from a few pages ago.

tom2050 said:
They have people monitor online games

Senethro said:
(paraphrase: So you claim) the existence of a secret Valve gestapo who close accounts for breaking rules din online games...

tom2050 said:
You believe in a Valve gestapo?

Did you see what you did? You made a statement, I questioned the statement, you ignored the question and put words in my mouth as if I had made the claim you did.

Its very childish.

Moderator Action: No need to call anything childish.

Edit:

Moss said:
Moderator Action: Back on topic guys, and quit the needless bickering please.

Alright, no more from me, sorry for not checking for mods before clicking submit.

Drakarska · Oct 26, 2010

Jharii said:
Just trying to do my part, even though it does offer information that counters my viewpoint. Not that I had a point other than my experience with Steam has been excellent, I just wanted to see actual information that certain people would not provide, even when asked nicely. But I liken those counter-arguments to Newton "discovering" gravity by an apple falling on his head.

And yes, I was curious as well.

Well, lol, we have differing views about Steam. Yours has been excellant according to you, mine has definitely been less so according to me. But I agree with your analgy.

@ Senethro; No, I don't think you really deserve the requested info young man. And mom says your grounded from the mustang this weekend

.

Anthropoid · Oct 26, 2010

Here is my take on Steam

Have you ever tried to uninstall Steam?

I did some years ago, and I couldn't. That makes it malware IMO.

Second, requiring an online connection to play a game that is not an online game and for that matter a single-player game creates a possibility for infringed usage. Providing me the option to play the game that way is one thing. Requiring this form of networking as a precondition for the game to work constitutes an infringement on rights of fair use.

Lastly, Steam is a 3rd party application that is not integral to the products in question. Requiring me to register with said 3rd party or for that matter network to their system as a pre-condition to use the game product is forcing me to patronize a third party and giving me no other option for opportunity to get my fair use of the game unless I do patronize said third party. I argue that that too constitutes an infringement of my rights of fair use, though I don't think that principle has been contested in court as yet.

Lastly, and this is just my personal feeling: I don't want to have to go to extra hassle to play a game. I'm more than willing to jump through a hoop or maybe even two to get a game to run as a way to help the publisher prevent shrinkage. I certainly have to deal with those godforsaken plastic security packages in which they package various products these days in efforts to prevent shoplifting . . .

Issuing me a License Key and requiring me to activate the product with said license key is a tried-and true method in software retailing, whether it is hard copy or DL. Unless they can prove to me that this measure of anti-piracy is ineffective, then their decision to employ more restrictive methods that infringe on my life and impinge my use of their product constitutes simply hassling me, an honest paying customer, as a way to TRY to protect their bottom line. If it is so necessary, then why haven't the companies that still do not use such techniques gone out of business? Have the producers considered repricing as an alternative option to reducing shrinkage? A determined hacker is scarcely going to be more obstructed by a login process than by a license key algorithm.

My bet is this: Valve has a thing going, they are aggressively partnering with various publishers and because a large fraction of the gaming market are under 20s who are quite accustomed to having their digital lives networked, this movement has steadily grown.

Consequently, more and more publishers are flirting with the model. I will bet that this is inspite of a lack of evidence of need for such measures, or any proof of their greater effectiveness at reducing shrinkage. I've seen plenty of online discussions about this, including plenty of proponents and I've never seen links to any market studies or consumer psych studies which provide any evidence that these types of anti-piracy measures really are necessary or effective. IMO, the "need" for anti-piracy measures like Steam is a reflection of an agenda by Valve and an understandable sentiment on the part of publishers/producers to play it safe and to go with the "latest" approach.

However, as I said in the post on the TES thread, eventually I predict this is going to bite them back. Eventually, someone, somewhere will buy this stuff, and be sufficiently ***ed that they fight it. A suit for infringement of fair use will not be a pretty prospect if some filthy rich 20 year old living in Beverly Hills and whose father is a hot-shot corporate attorney catch the whiff of a potential score. Not to mention the potential hit to market share from adopting Steam.

In short, I believe that Firaxis, Bethesda, etc. the companies that are flirting with going in this direction really should be thinking hard about the possible long-term consequences of such changes in practice.

Many years ago, I had Steam on a former machine for Half Life 2 I believe (might have been HL1). The irony: About 3 years ago, I reinstalled HL2 (from disks) and activated the game.

I encountered a CTD causing bug in one of the elevators toward the end of the first cell in the game. I looked around for a fix, even sent a note to the Valve tech support guys. Know what I was told?

We don't support that game any longer.

Drakarska · Oct 26, 2010

An interesting read, my thanks. It closely parallel's my own personal feelings about Steam and the growing trend of implementing unwanted extras all in the guise of making things easier for the consumer.

Mesix · Oct 26, 2010

yeti101 said:
i do IT support our SLA (service level agreement) is 16 working hours thats 2 days. Last time i had a problem with steam i got a response in 24 hours. You remind me of some of my customers, some seem to think theyre the only ones who have incidents raised and i support 5000 people not 25 million like valve.

Thank you for making my point for me. Valve is incompetent to handle the customer support for Civ V. It has now been over 24 hours and I still have not had any peep out of the nonsupport folks. Not only should my problem be relatively simple to solve, it should not have been a problem in the first place. By this time tomorrow I will have decided not to buy the latest version of Civ due to the moranic decision to partner Steam and require it.

i have no idea but if its easy then 2k do it for other reasons ill take a wild guess and say money. I bet 2k gets a bigger cut if steam is compulsory as opposed to a non steam & steam version like bioshock was. Valves strategy has always been to get as big a user base as possible. They dont really care whos games they are selling as long as they get peeps on the steam platform it grows. If steams compulsory it means more people will be on it- better chance to sell more games- more profit. 2k must get a better deal to make it compulsory.

I'd like to know all the juicy contractual arrangements they make with other publishers but i doubt they will tell us.

Which is exactly why they won't get one red cent of my money if they can't support their product.

Maniacal · Oct 26, 2010

@Mesic: Yes, we know, their support system is often very slow (and so is everything at VALVe). I hope you get a reply soon.

Have you ever tried to uninstall Steam? I did some years ago, and I couldn't. That makes it malware IMO.

Why not? I see now reason why you should be unable to install Steam. Though perhaps, since it was "some years ago" you ran into a problem that is now fixed (Steam has improved vastly since its early years).

Second, requiring an online connection to play a game that is not an online game and for that matter a single-player game creates a possibility for infringed usage. Providing me the option to play the game that way is one thing. Requiring this form of networking as a precondition for the game to work constitutes an infringement on rights of fair use.

There is an offline mode, though it isn't perfect, you do NOT have to always be online except for authentication and patches of course.

Lastly, Steam is a 3rd party application that is not integral to the products in question. Requiring me to register with said 3rd party or for that matter network to their system as a pre-condition to use the game product is forcing me to patronize a third party and giving me no other option for opportunity to get my fair use of the game unless I do patronize said third party. I argue that that too constitutes an infringement of my rights of fair use, though I don't think that principle has been contested in court as yet.

A lot of games also require you to register for GameSpy or have an EA or Microsoft account to access the multiplayer. The End User License Agreements are likely to be held up in court, the company sells you a license to use their product in the way they have designed it. Recently, the EULA for, iirc, AutoCAD was held up in regards to someone selling used discs on e-bay. The original owner was supposed to have destroyed them and should not have sold them in the first place according to the EULA and the US court.

If you don't like a game using Steam, don't buy it. That is the way they designed the product and you agree to all conditions when you use it. Its better than Ubisoft's DRM which kicks you to the main menu of the game if you lose your internet connection for a minute (or maybe less?) (and these are singleplayer games mostly).

Lastly, and this is just my personal feeling: I don't want to have to go to extra hassle to play a game. I'm more than willing to jump through a hoop or maybe even two to get a game to run as a way to help the publisher prevent shrinkage. I certainly have to deal with those godforsaken plastic security packages in which the package various products these days in efforts to prevent shoplifting . . .

Any real hassle is not cool, agreed, but Steam isn't necessarily a hassle (it certainly isn't for me and many other people, others though haven't had great experiences which may or may not result from their own error or Steam causing a problem).

Issuing me a License Key and requiring me to activate the product with said license key is a tried-and true method in software retailing, whether it is hard copy or DL. Unless they can prove to me that this measure of anti-piracy is ineffective, then their decision to employ more restrictive methods that infringe on my life and impinge my use of their product, then what this move constitutes is simply hassling me, an honest paying customer, as a way to TRY to protect their bottom line. If it is so necessary, then why haven't the companies that still do not use such techniques gone out of business? Have the producers considered repricing as an alternative option to reducing shrinkage? A determined hacker is scarcely going to be more obstructed by a login process than by a license key algorithm.

No DRM works. Steam games are cracked and pirated day 1. However, that is why Steam is not JUST a DRM solution, there is a lot more to it.

My bet is this: Valve has a thing going, they are aggressively partnering with various publishers

Hardly surprising, VALVe is, afterall, a company. Just like the other developers and publishers.

and because a large fraction of the gaming market are under 20s who are quite accustomed to having their digital lives networked

The average age of a gamer that has been most quoted (sorry, I forget the source, but a bit of googling should find it eventually, blame the media for not linking directly to sources) is 33. Though yes a large fraction of gamers are under 20, a huge fraction is also in its 20s. This is an interesting hypothesis, but ultimately I would love to see an actual study done on it as there is very little data on if this is an effect or not.

Consequently, more and more publishers are flirting with the model. I will bet that this is inspite of a lack of evidence of a need for such measures, or any proof of their greater effectiveness at reducing shrinkage. I've seen plenty of online discussions about this, including plenty of proponents and I've NEVER seen links to any market studies or consumer psych studies which provide any evidence that these types of anti-piracy measures really are necessary or effective. It is a reflection of an agenday by Valve and an understandable sentiment on the part of publishers/producers to play it safe.

Steam is much more than just DRM, and no DRM works. And yeah, there haven't really been any studies.

However, as I said in the post on the TES thread, eventually I predict this is going to bite them back. Eventually, someone, somewhere will buy this stuff, and be sufficiently ***ed that they fight it. A suit for infringement of fair use will not be a pretty prospect if some filthy rich 20 year old living in Beverly Hills and whose father is a hot-shot corporate attorney catch the whiff of a potential score. Not to mention the potential hit to market share from adopting Steam.

In short, I believe that Firaxis, Bethesda, etc. the companies that are flirting with going in this direction really should be thinking hard about the possible long-term consequences of such changes in practice.

Steam and other digital distributors have proven to be extremely popular over the last few years or so and the demand for digital distribution is growing. It would be stupid of them NOT to offer their products available for digital distribution, especially on Steam which has an estimated (because almost NOBODY, digital or retail, release sales figures) 40% market share of digital video game distribution.

What attracts other developers to bundle Steam with their games is Steamworks, which is FREE for the developer to use. It provides (off the top of my head), the in-game browser, friendslist, chat, etc (though the in-game stuff can be accessed by adding a non-steam game's shortcut to Steam and launching it through Steam), multiplayer support, achievement system, Steam Cloud, if you mac a Mac version of the game and put it on Steam you buy 1 copy of the game that includes both the Mac and Windows versions, and a number of other features. Using this is, as I said, free, and saves the developer time and money developing them themselves.

From this thread in the Computer Talk subforum from someone who is considering using Steamworks himself:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=392916&page=2

Speedo said:
Steamworks looks to be pretty awesome for developers. I'm not sure what the actual costs to use it are, but Steamworks lets game developers get access to a lot of features (copy protection, patching/distribution, voice chat, achievements, etc) that they'd normally have to either develop themselves or go out and license from a half dozen 3rd party companies. I'm seriously looking at using it for a game I'm helping develop.

As a copy protection system Steam is reasonable for consumers. It's not as ideal as simply installing the game and using a CD key, sure. But most copy protection for better or for worse is going to require online access, and compared to the competition in that arena Steam is pretty decent. There are legitimate concerns about Valve going out of business and so on, and they've claimed that if that happened they would release patches to remove Steam authentication so you could still play games. Dunno if they'd really do it considering how many games use Steam now, but I have more faith in them than I do in most other publishers (EA, etc).

Steam also runs some fantastic sales that are great for consumers. I just look at my purchase history and in only the last 6 months I've saved $175 on game purchases thanks to Steam sales. Older games often go on sale for just a couple of dollars. Even newer games are sometimes given crazy discounts, eg just a few weeks ago I bought a bundle with Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 for $10 - normal pricing on that bundle is $30.

Senethro · Oct 26, 2010

Mesix said:
Thank you for making my point for me. Valve is incompetent to handle the customer support for Civ V. It has now been over 24 hours and I still have not had any peep out of the nonsupport folks. Not only should my problem be relatively simple to solve, it should not have been a problem in the first place. By this time tomorrow I will have decided not to buy the latest version of Civ due to the moranic decision to partner Steam and require it.

Which is exactly why they won't get one red cent of my money if they can't support their product.

This may be a dumb idea but have you considered not entering an APO address? Like, maybe your address back home? Anyway, I'd just chill a bit. The CS is in a different timezone to you.

Also, spelling moronic incorrectly with a built in spellchecker is just inexcusable!

So, yeah, relax. This next guy used to be very angry too but now apparently has nothing bad to say about them!

Drakarska said:
@ Senethro; No, I don't think you really deserve the requested info young man. And mom says your grounded from the mustang this weekend .

Maniacal · Oct 26, 2010

Senethro said:
This may be a dumb idea but have you considered not entering an APO address? Like, maybe your address back home? Anyway, I'd just chill a bit. The CS is in a different timezone to you.

Also, spelling moronic incorrectly with a built in spellchecker is just inexcusable!

His credit card may be registered to his APO address, unless he's told anyone here we don't know what he actually DOES at the base there (though since its Germany I assume he's some kind of support role, technician or pencil pusher or whatever, and might be there on a long-term basis). As such he can't use his home address. That may even BE his home.

And yeah spelling moron wrong on the internet is not a good idea as it generally works against you, but I'm not the grammar police so I assume it was an accident.

Jharii · Oct 26, 2010

Drakarska said:
An interesting read, my thanks. It closely parallel's my own personal feelings about Steam and the growing trend of implementing unwanted extras all in the guise of making things easier for the consumer.

To be fair, "guise" is a bit disingenuous. If it was a program that had no benefit, no one would use it. Products are ultimately provided for the consumer to fill a need with the obvious trade-off of the company making money. Of course there will be a footprint when using a computer program. But "unwanted" extras? If they are included, someone wants them somewhere, even if you don't necessarily want them. But a 28mb memory footprint is not imposing by any means.

I am sorry that your experience with Steam has been so unsatisfactory, but I highly doubt that is Steam's intention. I am sure their intent is to satisfy you. Apparently, you both have reached an impasse.

Jharii · Oct 26, 2010

Senethro said:
This may be a dumb idea but have you considered not entering an APO address? Like, maybe your address back home? Anyway, I'd just chill a bit. The CS is in a different timezone to you.

I don't recall if this was covered or not, and 30+ pages is a lot to comb through, but can't this be done via a PayPal account that is directly tied to your credit/debit card? That would even allow for another layer of security for your transactions.

Steam - love or hate?

King

King

Epic Dadness

the green Napoleon

Overlord

Deity

King

King

CFC Scribe

the green Napoleon

Overlord

Epic Dadness

Grognard fantome

Epic Dadness

The Allfather

the green Napoleon

Overlord

the green Napoleon

King

King

Similar threads