Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
The goal is to increase our options for strategies and decision-making. Slowing down culture and moving policies later reduces our options.
It's true that too many choices can overwhelm a person. I'm not sure we're in that realm yet. Instead of these more complicated solutions, I'm starting to feel it's simpler to just solve the problem directly and remove the obsolete ban. It doesn't serve a purpose anymore now that its original reasons for existence were solved and forgotten months ago (cost reducing policies, and weak early policies). I'm more familiar with UI editing now than I was over the summer, and think I know how to fix this problem now.
Low priority policies are addressed on a local per-policy basis, and do not generally influence broader balance decisions. I don't have a problem with human advantages over the AI when they can be counteracted in other ways. Gameplay is more important to me than immersion here since policies are very abstract.
The main problem is ever since Firaxis instituted the policy-saving ban in March, I've received feedback people run out of policies, and are pressured into ones they don't want. The goal is to increase our options for strategies and decision-making. Balance is not the focus right now, since numbers can be adjusted later, once a broader solution is in place.
The goal is to increase our options for strategies and decision-making. Slowing down culture and moving policies later reduces our options.
Consider other decisions we can defer:
Now think about two outlying strategies:
- Saving a Great Scientist for a later technology can have some benefits, but that interim period has the opportunity cost of not getting an Academy or other tech we could have chosen to research right away.
- Saving barbarian camps lets us farm for experience, but also means we don't get the gold from clearing the camps.
- Saving money for upgrades or buildings unlocked in a few turns, but lose out on potential gains from immediate purchases.
These examples show we cannot say "saving always helps" or "saving always hurts." The outlying situations of A and B are both bad for the player. There's a middle ground where the good strategies do exist. Saving is an obvious disadvantage in the short run, but can help in the long run in special circumstances.
- Save all gold, culture, and great people until the end of the game. I think we can agree this would not be a good strategy. If the game ends before our resources are fully used, they go to waste. Civilization games are also exponential, so using things early is typically more valuable than using late.
- Use all gold, culture, and great people immediately. This is obviously not a good strategy if one turn later we would unlock a new type of building to spend gold on, or a new World Wonder to instant build with an Engineer.
I prefer moving Freedom to Industrial than enabling Autocracy and Order in Renaissance.
Renaissance is achievable pretty early, and those late-game trees are pretty powerful, and so with policy-saving enabled I think the human gets a very big advantage.
Freedom is already very powerful, so I think it could use this nerf.
But Autocracy and Order in Renaissance are too strong, and are very bad in a flavor sense.
Think about what these are modeling in a historic sense; fascism, socialism/communism and liberalism. All 19th or 20th century.
I don't see this as a problem. There are still 7 trees to choose from by then. If we're getting too many policies too soon, then arguably the problem is with policy cost, and I'd change the policy cost formula to increase the costs of policies 13-24 and then slightly reduce the cost of policies 25-36, keeping overall policy cost the same.This would result in the lack of options for policy choices in the midgame
Freedom is strong in part because specialists are too strong. I have consistently argued that the current specialist yields are too high, and that they are boring,Freedom is so strong, and (again, as Thal noted) Order and Autocracy might as well not exist at this point. Given that the suggestion has mired us to such an extent, perhaps indeed the best move would be to just nerf Freedom and call it a day - it's certainly the simplest solution.
I don't see this as a problem. There are still 7 trees to choose from by then. If we're getting too many policies too soon, then arguably the problem is with policy cost, and I'd change the policy cost formula to increase the costs of policies 13-24 and then slightly reduce the cost of policies 25-36, keeping overall policy cost the same.
I also think we'd be better off reverting to 5 policy trees for a cultural victory, and generally increasing the costs of policies 13-30 to keep the overall cost similar.
Freedom is strong in part because specialists are too strong. I have consistently argued that the current specialist yields are too high, and that they are boring,
I think the right solution is to fix specialists to max them into actual specialists, who are about generating great people, by reducing their resource yields and increasing their GPP yields.
I think the whole idea of being able to run a pure specialist economy that gets resource yields competitive with working tiles is broken, and is particularly broken when combined with the half food and half unhappiness policies.
If you want to keep the base specialist yields as they are, then yes, I would just nerf Freedom, by reducing the bonus from -1 food consumed by specialists to - 0.7 food consumed by specialists, and by reducing the happiness bonus by a similar amount.
This doesn't really make sense to me in this context; it seems like "lack of choice" is being used to mean two contradictory things simultaneously. "Lack of choice" is being used to say that we have lots of policy picks (because policies are cheap) and we have lack of choice if there aren't enough policy trees available to choose from, but "lack of choice" is also being used to say that if we don't have many policy picks (because policies are expensive) then we don't get to choose many different policies.Thal seems extremely reluctant to do so, primarily because of the "lack of choice" argument as far as I can tell
My problems with the specialist economy are:I see no problem with the idea of a specialist economy,
Are you sure? I thought that rounding took place only at the empire level, not the city level. [But I am not sure here.]One of the main problems with Freedom is the rounding involved - happiness can only be integers, and I'm pretty sure that just one specialist in a city will count as -1 unhappiness due to rounding error
I don't see this as a problem. There are still 7 trees to choose from by then. If we're getting too many policies too soon, then arguably the problem is with policy cost, and I'd change the policy cost formula to increase the costs of policies 13-24 and then slightly reduce the cost of policies 25-36, keeping overall policy cost the same.
I also think we'd be better off reverting to 5 policy trees for a cultural victory, and generally increasing the costs of policies 13-30 to keep the overall cost similar.
If you want to keep the base specialist yields as they are, then yes, I would just nerf Freedom, by reducing the bonus from -1 food consumed by specialists to - 0.7 food consumed by specialists, and by reducing the happiness bonus by a similar amount.
I agree wholeheartedly, and I've argued that overall policy cost is too small as it is now: I think an overall increase to policy costs at around the 18 mark would be a good move. However Thal seems extremely reluctant to do so, primarily because of the "lack of choice" argument as far as I can tell. I don't really have an opinion about the number of trees required - but in this I'm quite certain Thal will not change without overwhelming arguments and complaints (neither of which we've seen much of).
I see no problem with the idea of a specialist economy, the biggest gripe I have with the current setup is the ease of setting it up (re: cheap later policy costs/Freedom available at Ren). Before Freedom (and the lategame specialist WWs) specialist yields are not overpowered in my experience, and I've found the lower GPP makes GPs *more* valuable due to scarcity.
Food is very plentiful in VEM, I could see nerfing the food SP to -1/2 per specialist or somesuch, in conjunction with reducing some of the other bonuses in the tree and a rearrangement of the policies to backload it a bit more.
There are still 7 trees to choose from by then. If we're getting too many policies too soon, then arguably the problem is with policy cost, and I'd change the policy cost formula to increase the costs of policies 13-24 and then slightly reduce the cost of policies 25-36, keeping overall policy cost the same.
I also think we'd be better off reverting to 5 policy trees for a cultural victory, and generally increasing the costs of policies 13-30 to keep the overall cost similar.
Freedom is strong in part because specialists are too strong. I have consistently argued that the current specialist yields are too high, and that they are boring,
I think the right solution is to fix specialists to max them into actual specialists, who are about generating great people, by reducing their resource yields and increasing their GPP yields.
I think the whole idea of being able to run a pure specialist economy that gets resource yields competitive with working tiles is broken, and is particularly broken when combined with the half food and half unhappiness policies.
My problems with the specialist economy are:
a) It makes "good" terrain and improvements less important, because you're generating yields from buildings that are available in every city no matter how bad the local terrain is
b) It makes having lots of tiles (and tiles covered by culture) less important, because each city doesn't need to work may tiles. Similarly, it lets you pack in lots of cities if you want to; you don't need much land for a big empire.
c) It makes the type of terrain (eg: need hills for production city) less important, because any city can get any buildings and support any kind of economy
d) It makes specialists boring, because they fulfill the same role as working tiles; instant rewards, as opposed to a system like in Civ4 where using specialists was an investment; you got lower rewards now in exchange for high rewards in future
e) It is too abuseable with mass policies that boost specialists.
There are no policies that boost the yield of every citizen who is working a tile; they only boost specific improvements. And there are no policies that give food or happiness to citizens working tiles. These things are far too strong when you can devote a large portion of your empire to be specialists.
As Thal said, being able to have all civs use the policies is a good goal, so somehow making picks more flexible for non-culture civs is good as well. I think we can agree on this. But what I don't agree with is making it more flexible by simply allowing the player to choose more policies (and therefore requiring cultural civs to have even MORE policies). More picks makes each pick less significant and makes synergy too easy to achieve. If we want to be rewarded for planning well and picking things that synergize well, then to make those rewards significant you should make them difficult and exclusive. You have to TRY to get those rewards, and you can't get all of them. So more picks overall is terrible in my opinion, and I would much rather go back to the old system of less picks and 5 trees for cultural VC. I have also mentioned that 6 branches is a pain, as there aren't really many choices in that area. There are 10 branches. You will never go Autocracy or Rationalism, as those conflict with Freedom and Piety, 2 of the most important branches for a culture VC. So that leaves you with 6 of 8, 2 of which (Freedom and Piety) are definites. So you choose 4 of 6. And you HAVE to grab at least one of Tradition, Liberty, and Honor. So that's choose 3 of 5. And if you actually go for a culture VC, you will have many picks early and fewer late game (you can't/shouldn't save for Order) so its really choose 3 of 4. And that isn't a choice.
As for the Freedom branch and specialists in general, I agree very strongly with Ahriman. Specialists should be about something special, aka Great People . As he said above, as is they are just like any other citizen: they produce yields directly. They should be different, producing few yields now for large yields in the future from specialization (GP). If they just produce yields, then they can replace normal citizens, making city placement much less important. Tile improvements have to be strong to make working normal tiles worth it, and even when they are as strong as they are, it is still almost always better to have and engineer than a miner.
On that note, I think the improvements are too strong. I build a mine and it adds so much production to my city. I think improvements should matter, but right now I just think there are too many yields flying around. The game is much, much faster than vanilla, and I feel that I always have boatloads of all the resources, making the game too easy. Or at least too fast!
Obviously I already agreed with this position, but found this very well explained.
I disagree with this, just because I like a specialist economy. Overall I think it's a particularly subjective issue, in that it doesn't make the game notably easier or harder - just offers another, quite different approach.
My sense is that vanilla is much faster than VEM, mainly because of GS's. It's certainly easier - just look at the performance of Deity players in vanilla vs VEM. Science is what makes the game move fast, and while hammer yields do contribute to beakers, it's not a direct contribution. But the real problem with, for example, nerfing mines is that it will make the early game boring. That was considered a fact of life upon the release of Civ 5.