Featured Game #3 Spoiler 1: Pre-Renaissance

Thalassicus

Bytes and Nibblers
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Click Here to begin Game 3 of the GotM: VEM Edition. As fair respect for your fellow competitors, do not read the Spoiler threads before starting the game.

This thread is to discuss what happened in your early game - strategies, other civs, resources, events of the game, and so on. Please DO NOT post spoilers here about gameplay during or after the Renaissance era. Visit Spoiler Thread #2 to discuss the late game and post your final victory save.
 
Settled in place; scout, scout, worker, settler (I think). Went left side of Liberty first. Settled second city way south near the wine next to Monty. Built Colossus here, which took a long time but was able to speed it along by settling 2 more cities east of the capital on the 2 other Silk resources, sold the silk to Ramses and Askia, bought walls and watermill in the second city. Around this time Ramses finished Stonehenge, a good sign that the AI was ready to play. Destroyed nearby barb camps for city-states. Happiness was becoming an issue so I opened Piety before taking the connected city happiness bonus in Liberty. Monuments in all cities will give more happiness once I open that policy.

I prematurely started a war with Monty around turn 100 when I had units camped outside his borders. I greatly underestimated his Jaguars and lost 3~4 units in the process. I've pulled back and am waiting for 3 Satrap Courts to finish to go on a massive GA Immortal spam-fest. Monty finished the Great Wall so the GA movement increase should negate that problem.

Askia backstabbed me prior to the war with Monty, leaving me with 2 excess silks and no one to trade them to. I really hope there is another continent out there deprived of silk.

I don't really have a definite victory condition in mind yet.
 
My second city was off to the right, amid much jungle. Managed to grab Stonehenge and the Great Library in my capital, which was a great start. Unfortunately Suli came along and settled close to El Dorado, but i sneaked in with a settler and stole it off him before he could expand to it. Everyone seemed to be hating on Monty, and he had prviously decleared war on me, so I joined in and wiped him out. Science was a good advantage, although a long war with Askia was getting annoying, as I hadnt scouted out his area, and he was too far away.

Suli had settled much of the North, and Egypt the South, so I gave up expanding. Suli offered a war on Egypt, so i thought, why not? Turned out pretty well, except it sent me deep into unhappiness, so I had to call a peace. Science was well above everyone by this point, Although there seems to be a civ ahead of me in points D:
 
I settled on the silk, and built scout/scout/worker/stonehenge. Worked pretty well, second city was far SE near El Dorado. I did not get the great library, but I did get Pyramids and the Great Wall. (which saved me from a fairly early attack from Askia's cavalry) Askia settled for peace and we have been friends since. I fell 6 techs behind Sulaman, but caught up 3 techs by building the Porcelain tower and making 6 research agreements! The game is close, but I am ahead on points.
 
By the way, this game had a much higher level of difficulty because of all the marsh and jungle. Very hard to get around until you make Vanguard troops - even with a golden age move advantage.
 
I decided to play differently this game than I usually play, namely, no Liberty policies. I settled in place and stayed at one city until the NC, after which I settled 2 more cities - one 4-5 tiles east and another 4-5 tiles SW. I have built quite a few wonders so far including the GL, Oracle, CI, HS, PT and ND (bulbed with the HS GE in city 3). My policy choices have been all of Tradition (Legalism for temples after building monuments in all cities), several in Piety (left side) and will go all of Enlightenment now that I am in Renaissance (used a GS to speed my tech up into Acoustics). The ability to take both Piety and Enlightenment (previously mutually exclusive) was too interesting to pass up. I have stayed small and tall in order to keep my policies flowing since I eventually want all of the above 3 trees plus a good chunk (if not all) of Freedom.

Military-wise I have only built one Immortal, and basically all of my units are gifts from allying two militaristic CS. The CS gifts are fantastic as they start with 2 promotions. So far they have given me one swordsman, two archers (I upgraded them to Xbows), one Xbow, one knight and one chariot archer (I upgraded to a knight). Plus I have my original warrior (upgraded to swordsman) and one built Immortal (upgraded to pike). These units have been more than adequate to take out a lot of barb camps for CS influence, plus defend against an early DoW by Askia and a current war started by Monty. The 2 knights alone were able to wipe out most of Monty's army. My plan will be to build a few more units, take out Monty and annex his capital, since it is coastal (I need to get out and find the other civs and CS). Then I will likely go for a science victory, staying friendly with the other civs if possible. I currently have DoF and open borders pacts with Egypt, Ottomans and Arabia (the only civ I have met from the other continent so far), and an RA with Ottomans (I need to sign RA's with more civs now that I have the PT and am starting into Enlightenment policies).

I agree that the jungles and marsh are rough going. It is taking a long time to get tiles improved and I probably should build more workers. But eventually all of that jungle will be great for science and gold (after TPing). Population growth has not been a problem, but I have been running unemployed citizens for more production. I need to build universities ASAP. GS are coming out very fast and I have 4 stored up already. Currently on turn 135 (I think I hit Renaissance around turn 125, shortly after finishing the PT).
 
One thing I haven't figured out yet in VEM is whether to use some of these GS to settle Academies rather than to bulb to speed up teching. Would it be smart to build Academies on jungle tiles, or better to just TP those (assuming taking Enlightenment and Freedom policies)?
 
I popped one GS so far and planted him on one of the river marsh tiles. I'm using all jungle as villages to get the science bonus from Enlightenment.

I popped a GE and tried rushing Hagia Sophia, but after using the GE there was still 7~10 turns left to complete and it was completed by another Civ before I could finish it! What a waste! So frustrating!
 
What turn did you try to build the HS? I hard built it in my capital around turn 105-110 or so. A bit late because I built both the Oracle and Chichen Itsa first, but I still got it no problem. I used the free GE from the HS to speed build the Notre Dame in a secondary city (which built it in one turn because I had decent production there), and then I hard built the PT in my capital.

The CI is awesome with Darius of course. My current natural GA is 28 turns long (perfect for taking down Monty) and I will be close to another natural GA when it finishes (due to building the Satrap's Courts). Plus I have the Piety policy I can take which is a free GA plus 25% reduction in time to GA, and I likely will build the Taj Mahal right after researching the tech. Perpetual GA is the bomb.

I'm missing not having the Liberty policy or Pyramids for increased worker speed though. Taking 11-12 turns to clear a marsh and build a farm, or build a village on a jungle is maddening. Those guys are definitely working overtime and I had to hard build a few more workers so as not to be working too many unimproved tiles.
 
I'm having a horror game so far.

I got the pyramids early and put the settler to the east to get two more silk. The extended river to the east made me decide to go for four cities along its length to capitalise on the extra food from civil service. Went for civil service and got chichen itza. Also got a settler on the east coast at the river mouth to get el dorado and another silk just after askia DOWed me, killed some of his troops, then took white peace. Shortly after that Monty DOWed me, so rushed all my troops (mostly scouts upgraded to vanguards to deal with the horrible jungle/marsh terrain), killed a number of his troops and white peaced as well.

Ramses had a settler wandering where I wanted to infill with my fourth river city, so I asked him not to settle and he agreed. Suleman sent a wave of settlers out and I also asked him to not settle, and he promptly settled a trash city right on my borders. So I DOWed him and took the city- its placement isn't perfect but it could fill in the fourth position. Should have probably razed it....oh- managed to get the hagia sophia. Had my first GE sitting around with no wonders on my wish list so put in a manufactory in my capital instead.

What is puzzling me is that despite reaching all the landmarks I had aimed for in my plan I am last in science, culture, gold and yet to have my first happy golden age (just about to come). I suspect I won't be able to catch up, but will give it a go and see what happens. Getting universities everywhere and satraps courts is my current aim.

I suspect making friends with everyone was a very bad idea. Probably should have just gone for Ramses and Suleman and ignored the war mongers. Settling on nothing but silk has been problematic as well for happiness-maybe settling to the west on the southern wine and northern incense would have been better. I am at ~400AD and haven't finished a single policy tree, so a cultural victory isn't going to work. Being so far behind in science means a science victory isn't likely either. Given the others are running away I think I have to aim for a military victory once my golden ages start rolling. Suleman is first on the list since his territory is isolated from other hostile civs, and askia and monty will keep each other busy in the south.

I am starting to suspect that play testing a civ has been a big part of my problem. I seem to be following what worked in other games too rigidly, resulting in me missing all the cues from the landscape and geopolitics. This suggests that leader and unique traits are less important that the circumstances you find yourself in........
 
I decided to play differently this game than I usually play, namely, no Liberty policies. I settled in place and stayed at one city until the NC, after which I settled 2 more cities - one 4-5 tiles east and another 4-5 tiles SW.

I'm missing not having the Liberty policy or Pyramids for increased worker speed though. Taking 11-12 turns to clear a marsh and build a farm, or build a village on a jungle is maddening. Those guys are definitely working overtime and I had to hard build a few more workers so as not to be working too many unimproved tiles.

I settled exactly as you did, but took a mix of Liberty and Tradition, because I wanted to keep the capital building other stuff, and wanted extra, faster workers given the circumstances. I'm not at all sure what the best approach would be, and look forward to a comparative discussion.

One thing I haven't figured out yet in VEM is whether to use some of these GS to settle Academies rather than to bulb to speed up teching. Would it be smart to build Academies on jungle tiles, or better to just TP those (assuming taking Enlightenment and Freedom policies)?

My rule of thumb is no Academies after T125. With regard to jungle tiles, I would take the same attitude I always do: are they worth saving for later? If so, plant the Academy on grass. (I had no Academies this game, and did save the jungle tiles for science.)

What is puzzling me is that despite reaching all the landmarks I had aimed for in my plan I am last in science, culture, gold and yet to have my first happy golden age (just about to come). I suspect I won't be able to catch up, but will give it a go and see what happens. Getting universities everywhere and satraps courts is my current aim.

I suspect making friends with everyone was a very bad idea. Probably should have just gone for Ramses and Suleman and ignored the war mongers.

I am starting to suspect that play testing a civ has been a big part of my problem. I seem to be following what worked in other games too rigidly, resulting in me missing all the cues from the landscape and geopolitics. This suggests that leader and unique traits are less important that the circumstances you find yourself in........

I feel very similarly with regard to my own science standing at the 40% mark, and explore it more in my own game comments below. I'm not sure why multiple DoF's wouldn't be a good idea (more science) unless it backfired on you.

I'm not sure there's a downside to playtesting in general. I tend to follow certain patterns, and my finishes stay in a certain range, no matter what the (appropriate) civ or circumstances. That said, this is a very unusual start, and it's quite possible that anything particularly specific that you learned didn't apply.
 
I started by building a Scout, Worker, Scout, while researching Mining, then Calendar. My thinking was that getting a Worker producing asap easily outweighed the advantage of a second scout 14 turns earlier. This proved to be correct. I doubled down on the need for early workers by stealing an Aztec worker on T15 – the earliest war I have ever been in. This also paid off, as the Aztecs never attacked and eventually paid a modest sum for peace.

I researched the early techs then beelined for Civil Service, while building a monument and granary. Any thought of going for the Pyramids or the GL evaporated as they were both snatched up surprisingly quickly. I took Tradition, then went for Collective Rule and built Pasargadae on T50, on the hill two tiles below the silks south of Persepolis.

By then I had met the rest of the civs, and was friendly with all. There was no way I was going for a domination victory on terrain like this, even with the Persian GA speed advantage. I decided to focus on Science, and built Susa on T83 5 tiles east of the capital. My plan was to stop building there and acquire ports at the expense of the Aztecs. But when Songhai declared war on T78, I made peace with the Aztecs and focused on fighting Askia outside Susa. This was pretty easy – he had levies and archers vs my immortals and one archer.

I built Chichen Itza on T98 while pushing south toward the Songhai border. Askia agreed to peace on T115. By then I was researching Printing Press, which got me close to all the techs I’d need to take the Aztecs. I triggered my first GA with a Satrap’s Court on T119 – and then Montezuma obliged with an admittedly risky DOW on T126.

My pikes, swords and crossbows switfly demolished his army, and once I had two trebs I took his two-city on T155. By now Songhai and Ottomans were both very strong, and I had met the Mongols and Arabs. I had RA’s with everyone and built the Taj Mahal. This is a very unusual difference between my game and most of the others. I had essentially no opportunity to compete for the Pyramids, GL, or HG.

I then focused on gold and science while researching Astronomy. I also built two additional cities on the peninsula south of the former Aztec capital, to pick up all those luxuries. Maybe because my population was relatively low, I was surprised to find myself 5 or 6 techs behind my two neighbors. But it wasn’t that low – 13, 10, 10, 9, 6, 2 and 1. I’ve built science buildings and employed specialists, and have lots of RA’s. Because of how I approached the social policies as Persia, I now have completed Liberty and all of Tradition except Oligarchy and Landed Elite. (Ceremonal Rites went to Opera Houses; I played it conservatively taking Legalism and Monarchy to have an edge getting those two crucial Wonders. Still, I’ve noticed that my science-victory performance has dropped significantly – maybe by 50 turns since whatever version was around last spring. I can’t figure out whether I’m doing something wrong. One big difference is that I have been exploring not beelining for the NC over the last few months.

My plan now is to build up these cities as quickly as possible, but am debating whether to dip into Commerce before Rationalism. My guess is that I won’t, as long as the gold I have stays high. I’m pretty sure I can afford to ignore Patronage. In the meantime I’m readying my army for a two-frontwar with Askia (Susa and Teotihuacan), who is bound to come after me next.

As someone mentioned, the map is wonderful, with its highly strategic mountains and unusual amount of rough terrain.
 
I came to the same conclusion regarding Academies. They are not worth settling later. I put one down on a grassland tile and it was giving me 2:c5food: and 10:c5science:, which was increased to just over 20:c5science: with the 110% multiplier in my capital at that time. It doesn't sound bad, but using the GS to hasten a tech instead would have given me an instant 1200:c5science: (about half a tech at the time), which would have taken me 60 turns to accumulate from the Academy. Not to mention that without the Academy I would have been working another tile with more :c5food: and/or :c5production:. The Academies really need to scale up with increasing era for them to be worth using (unless you settle one very early, like after Writing when playing Babylon).

Science victories seem to take much longer in VEM (by design?). In vanilla I can usually reach a science victory by (or below) turn 260 or so even on Deity. I'm not going to come close to that in this game in spite of the fact that my science rate seems to be progressing as I would expect (I am over 500:c5science:/turn on turn 200). One reason of course is that both RA's and GS's aren't as powerful as in vanilla.

Another interesting thing is that the AI seems to be able to keep up in tech much better in VEM on King difficulty than in vanilla (where I would be way ahead in tech by this point). This makes the game more interesting at least - I have been neck-and-neck with Siam for tech lead the whole game. Now if only the AI's military strategy and use of :c5gold: could be improved. That would make the game much more challenging.
 
Science victories seem to take much longer in VEM (by design?). In vanilla I can usually reach a science victory by (or below) turn 260 or so even on Deity. I'm not going to come close to that in this game in spite of the fact that my science rate seems to be progressing as I would expect (I am over 500:c5science:/turn on turn 200). One reason of course is that both RA's and GS's aren't as powerful as in vanilla.

As late as the arrival of Korea, I was winning some science victories with Korea, Babylon and even the Aztecs in under 250 turns. At that point I began playing more for domination, and when I've tried science again since, have experimentally steered away from my standard Tradition/NC-first approach. As I mentioned, I'm doing much worse. It could be the change in approach, and I'll play a game with Babylon in the next couple of weeks to test it definitively. I don't know if anything in the game other than the RA mechanic has changed since - maybe less specialist slots?

Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Another interesting thing is that the AI seems to be able to keep up in tech much better in VEM on King difficulty than in vanilla (where I would be way ahead in tech by this point). This makes the game more interesting at least - I have been neck-and-neck with Siam for tech lead the whole game. Now if only the AI's military strategy and use of :c5gold: could be improved. That would make the game much more challenging.

This is a recent improvement. The AI's science bonus increases with each era. As expected, it's made them much more competitive.
 
For some reason I am unable to ask Sully to stop attacking one of my CS allies. We have a DoF so he should immediately stop if I ask (at least that's what happens in vanilla). He is not at perma-war with them as this is the first CS he has attacked all game. As you can see in the screenshot linked below, the option is available to propose that he make peace with Venice, but when I click it does not show up in the proposal window.

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594701250454755481/3FBB54E0DB740808C9A659F723F5CA28217479CA/
 
My girlfriend is playing the GotVEM right now, and the same thing happened to her.

Earlier she erased the prior VEM mod via the ModBrowser, then later discovered that it was still in the folder. She deleted it from there as well, but I assumed this (and other kinks, like question marks instead of some names), were due to the game having been corrupted from the start.

But if you're having the same problem, then I wonder if it has something to do with 119 ...or the map script, somehow?
 
Glad you're enjoying the highly strategic terrain! I also found it very fun in my test games of this map. :D Starting in a massive rainforest is slow at first, but the terrain is excellent once marshes are cleared and mines/lumbermills built. There's a ton of foothills available for production along the mountain ridges.

Trade mechanics such as peace deals and such are largely in the game core, and out of our hands.
 
It was very strange. Sully got the CS down to a sliver of health and then made peace! I guess he had a change of heart. I've never seen that before.
 
Tried again after my dear partner stuck a screwdriver through the motherboard during an upgrade (really know to backup everything elsewhere before I let them loose during GOTM again!). But I think my first try was doomed by that stage anyway...sigh

Second time around things went much smoother- didn't try and force my expansion down the long jungle river. Headed east and west with the pyramids settler and liberty policy settler. Later took the north west position for the incense. Filled liberty, opened honour and piety. Barb farmed, got a dozen or so CS allies. Having Hanoi in particular was very useful to block Askia from expanding or DOWing. I conquered Suleman by 0AD and left him a couple of trash polar cities. He kept sending out settlers so ended up staying at war after a brief peace. Settled to the double silver to his East.

Took out Monty and Ramses by about 1000 AD (wonder mountain in Egypt!) then quickly took Askias capital at T200.

Just heading out to explore the world, mostly to culture farm barbs. Opened enlightenment and finding it isn't overpowered when paired with piety. Culture seems to be going very slowly despite building lots of culture buildings. Has there been a change in policy cost recently????

A conquest victory is possible but I think I feel like filling up my continent and growing cities while going for a science victory. Two science on trading posts (plus golden ages) is too good to pass up. Only just about to settle el dorado at this late stage (NWs aren't that amazing to settle without luxuries).

I've been in perma golden age as well. I'm actually finding that you could easily pass up the chichen itza, GA extending policies and taj mahal with Persia. If you finish the game with another 100 turns of GA waiting to roll it seems a bit of a waste of resources.

It definitely seems that Persia needs some more adjusting to make them interesting. I didn't notice the immortals healing all that fast (though vanguard medics are lovely for battle strategy). Perhaps the Satrap's court needs a happiness bonus instead of a direct GA bonus? This would provide better synergy with the piety policies that link happiness and culture. A plain happy bonus would be a bit dull- maybe something like a happiness boost for surplus luxury resources in the city? This would add something unique to Persia in seeking out city spots with multiple luxuries within reach.
 
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