Featured Game #3 Spoiler thread 2 - Endgame

Click Here to begin Game 3 of the GotM: VEM Edition. As fair respect for your fellow competitors, do not read Spoilers before starting the game. This thread is to discuss the endgame during or after the Renaissance era. (Visit Spoiler Thread #1 for early game pre-Renaissance discussions.)

What are your thoughts on strategies you pursued, how gameplay evolved, and so on?

When you complete the game, please post:

• Hall of Fame score.
• End date.
• Victory type (if you won).
• Attach a savegame of the moment just after the game ends.

High scores for each victory type will be announced on the website, civmodding.wordpress.com.

I was going for domination, but was gimped by happiness problems and relatively slow social progress. (although, better than the AI) When Suleiman built Apollo, I did as well. My happiness improved after capturing the Forbidden Palace, and taking the factory/smithy happiness policy, but it was a little late to go for Domination. (I captured the Statue of Liberty, Kremlin, and Forbidden Palace from Siam.) Arabia had 50,000 gold, a 1 tech lead, and no wonders?? Mongolia had 30,000 gold with 3 wonders. (I had 15 wonders). I was friends with Arabia, Mongolia, Askia, and Suleiman until the end. (Askia had attacked me briefly.)

My score was 4792.
I am not sure what I would have done differently. I probably should have crushed my neighbors, before crossing to attack Siam, but Askia and Suleiman were friends, and Siam denounced me. Also, I attacked very late in the game, so the conquered cities were fairly large. An earlier conquest strategy might have worked better.

I'm interested in what policies you picked and how many cities you planted and where. I think I too will be going for a science victory but that could change depending on where the other capitals are on the other continent. If they are coastal I might go for a domination.

I'm at turn 190, just took Thebes, am still at war with Askia who is a military juggernaut. I have 12 cities, 5 are puppets. Just started researching Scientific Theory. Am running into happiness problems so I took the middle path of Enlightenment in order to get to the happy science buildings. Haven't had a happy empire in quite some time so the happy science bonus hasn't kicked in yet. I've been in a GA for a long time, like 60 or so turns. I think that when you capture a city with a market, the market turns into a Satrap's Court and you get the 200 insta GA points, even if you are already in a GA. This is strange as it seems to conflict with my earlier report that building one during a GA didn't give the insta-points.

Scouting the rest of the map and there are TONS of barb camps out there! TONS!

Gamewizard said:

I'm interested in what policies you picked and how many cities you planted and where. I think I too will be going for a science victory but that could change depending on where the other capitals are on the other continent. If they are coastal I might go for a domination.


Scouting the rest of the map and there are TONS of barb camps out there! TONS!

Click to expand...

My first pick was the honor opener, then Liberty, then tradition. I split between Liberty and Tradition until both were full, then took 3 more policies in the honor tree. Then I did the entire piety tree, and finished the honor tree. However, this all took much longer than usual. I actually finished the last policies in the piety tree with Sydney Opera House!!

Cities : I did stonehenge/pyramids/national college before my first city which was SE near El Dorado. My 3rd city was east near a mountain and river (for Machu Pichu).
My 4th city was NE near Almaty and the incense. Then I had a city far to the SE near Monaco, then 2 island cities near the coal and the whales to the NE.

I conquered Monty completely with minimal happiness problems. Then I actually completed the Pentagon before attacking Egypt. (Already had the first 4 trees + the Order opener.) When I captured Thebes, my happiness dropped to -29. I let Askia capture Memphis and Heliopolis. By now, I had Airborne units and Destroyers/Battleships so the Siam capital was easy pickings.

I finally got the 3rd Order policy, which increased my happiness to 64. Then Suleiman completed Apollo.

I have no idea what Arabia was doing with all that gold, a tech lead, and no wonders. I assumed he was going for diplomatic victory, although Askia had most of the city states (I had 4), but ironically a -133 gold income. Anyway, I settled for a Science Victory, although I probably could have dominated. (I was the juggernaut at the end.)

At the end of the game I was mostly confused!

Gamewizard said:

I think that when you capture a city with a market, the market turns into a Satrap's Court and you get the 200 insta GA points, even if you are already in a GA. This is strange as it seems to conflict with my earlier report that building one during a GA didn't give the insta-points.

Click to expand...

You definitely still get the points even if you are in a GA. In my game I am on turn 172 and have been in GA since very early (with only a very short break in the early 100's in between my first and second natural GA). I have 71 more turns of GA left and will keep adding to that as I go, so I will be in GA continuously until the end even if I don't capture/take any more cities or build any more Satraps, as the natural GA's will continue to pile on from excess happiness.

Basically my formula for perma-GA has been:

Natural GA to start
Extend by building Satrap's courts in all cities
Chichen Itsa for extended GA's
Large happiness excess from policies/wonders (e.g., ND)/buildings to keep building toward more natural GA's
Policy in Piety giving free GA plus 25% reduced happiness needed for GA
Taj Mahal for free GA
Policy in Freedom for 100% increase in GA time
Bulb excess GP for more GA time (if needed)

I have been doing more of a tall strategy as I have only settled 3 cities (including my capital) and have only conquered 2 of Monty's cities (one coastal puppet and I annexed his capital which is also coastal). I may just stay peaceful for the remainder of the game, depending on what the AI does. I currently have DoF, open borders exchange and RAs with all civs on my continent except for Monty (and with Arabia as well, but not Siam who is a bit of a runaway and about equal with me in tech and score - I still don't know the last civ).

After I had scouted a bit and met Monty (by far the most aggresive neighbour one could have), I decided that there are no spots worth of settling and immediately prepared for attacking Monty before he can do it.

(My early workorder was scout, worker(s), archers and immortals, then stonehenge and hanging gardens.
My research masonry - archery - calendar - bronze w - mathematics - iron w - education
Early culture was honor except, the free GG, then piety for the happiness bonus on culture buildings)

First killed some barbs for the CS, then attacked Monty around turn 45-60 (not quite sure). Teotihucan was easy (and well founded!), but Tenochtitlan was hard because of the jungle around it, so I lost at least 2 Immortals. While still sieging montys capital, Askia attacked me and some turns later he declared war on ramesses.
I took Tenochtitlan after my first catapult had arrived and marched east to Askia. Some of my captured workers had build roads from Persepolis to half the way to Askia, so I could attack him fast. I took Tombuctu and had nearly taken his capital when he offered 3500 gp for peace. I decided to take the gold and bought very good infrastructur for my three cities.

Ramsesses was still weakened because of his war with Askia, so I decided to take him out.
(My army consisted of 4+ immortals, 2 catapults, 2 archers, 1 horse, 2 swords, nearly half were gifts from my allies almaty and dublin)
The war with ramesses was short and bloody: I decided to take only thebes and burnt the other 3 cities. Surprisingly he had 2 or 3 knights, but in the end he was done before the 20 turn peace with askia was finished.

So I could begin the second war against Askia the turn after the peace ended. With Askia having levies and his special knights, it took me some time to finish him.
(Techwise I was a bid backwards, updating to medieval units in the end of this war, but after conquering Gao (GLib!) and Jenne I advanced very fast.)
In the end I took Gao and Jenne and burnt 4 cities, removing him from the game.

While my army still fought against Askia I had started to build a road from Persepolis to Istanbul in the north, so I could attack Suleiman after Askias main cities were taken.
So I lead my veteran army mainly longswords, immortals and 3 cannons to the north.

(Turn: ~170, the conquered cities build mainly happiness/culture infra, a few units, some caravels (looking for the other capitals) and later a navy of 10+ SoL and frigates; all except Thebes on prod focus, Persepolis had settled 3 or 4 scientists and used its many jungle tiles for extra research)
(Research after Education: Chemistry - Navigation -Dynamite - Steam)
(Culture: Finished honor, then piety, then took the science happiness bonus)

Istanbul and his two biggest cities (burnt!) were taken within 10 turns. Then I made peace, because I wanted to prepare for the inavsion of the other continent.

My caravels had found Siam and Arabia on the coast (nice) and mongolias capital in the centre of the continent. I killed some barbs (for much culture and gold), moved my army back to the south, upgraded them to rifle and some dragoons and sailed with 15-20 units + my new navy to siam.
There had been no war on the other continent until this moment (at least not in the time I had contact with them), so I was very happy to see that siam and mongolia attacked arabia, the turn (198) I set sail.

After sinking half a dozen pirates I reached the siamese coast. My SoL attacked the cities and my army just had to move in. So Siam lost 2 small cities (burnt) and one big city and his capital in less then ten rounds. I lost 2 ships. I captured one city inland and my army (now with artillery) marched north to Karakorum and Mecca. My navy moved to mecca, too.
While still on the way north mongolia and Suleiman attacked me! So I lost a scouting dragoon. Else my march to karakorum was a bit slowed because the mongols had the great wall. (Hope the chinese never find out.)
I made peace with siam. Captured Mecca within 2 turns. (4 SoL attacked and one Rifle could walk in.) and in the next turn karakorum was mine, too. Some Skirmishers were no match for artillery and rifleman.

So I had Domination victory on turn 222!

An interesting game, I never founded a city! Don't think that happended before. And I never played so aggressive before. (But I think I should do it more often, because war is the main weakness of the AI.)

Some things I observed while playing and want to mention:
- In Thebes and Jenne I build a courthouse, but the mali (-25% yields) stayed.
- Choosing Enlightment gave one free GS and +1 gold on SC buildings.
- Skirmisher and melee units are always dead when attacked while on sea (even from caravels, to sink an artillery I need 2-3 SoL).
- Temple boni for cotton/silk vanished sometimes!
- I think Persias building is too powerful. After turn 60 or so I never went out of golden age. And I only used one GG to create a golden Age! No Chichen Itza, no Taj Mahal. Perhaps removing the one time bonus would be better. Persia has a great SpUnit and a very good SpAbility, they don't need a great building either.
First I thought the movement bonus would be medium at best, but having 3 movement points with melee and artillery is absolutely amazing.

Thanks to Thal for creating this interesting GoM!

lindanealmck said:

I was going for domination, but was gimped by happiness problems and relatively slow social progress.

I am not sure what I would have done differently. I probably should have crushed my neighbors, before crossing to attack Siam, but Askia and Suleiman were friends, and Siam denounced me. Also, I attacked very late in the game, so the conquered cities were fairly large. An earlier conquest strategy might have worked better.

Click to expand...

I think attacking Siam early makes sense even if you didn't have local friends. But if you're going for conquest, nothing beats a quick start. Since you're not waiting for a UU with Persia, it's even more the case here.

RedRover57 said:

You definitely still get the points even if you are in a GA. In my game I am on turn 172 and have been in GA since very early (with only a very short break in the early 100's in between my first and second natural GA). I have 71 more turns of GA left and will keep adding to that as I go, so I will be in GA continuously until the end even if I don't capture/take any more cities or build any more Satraps, as the natural GA's will continue to pile on from excess happiness.

Basically my formula for perma-GA has been:

Natural GA to start
Extend by building Satrap's courts in all cities
Chichen Itsa for extended GA's
Large happiness excess from policies/wonders (e.g., ND)/buildings to keep building toward more natural GA's
Policy in Piety giving free GA plus 25% reduced happiness needed for GA
Taj Mahal for free GA
Policy in Freedom for 100% increase in GA time
Bulb excess GP for more GA time (if needed)

I have been doing more of a tall strategy as I have only settled 3 cities (including my capital) and have only conquered 2 of Monty's cities (one coastal puppet and I annexed his capital which is also coastal). I may just stay peaceful for the remainder of the game, depending on what the AI does. I currently have DoF, open borders exchange and RAs with all civs on my continent except for Monty (and with Arabia as well, but not Siam who is a bit of a runaway and about equal with me in tech and score - I still don't know the last civ).

Click to expand...

I played almost exactly the same way. I think the GA mechanism is OP right now - it seems even easier to be in a permanent GA than in vanilla... and yet I wish Persia had its vanilla combat edge.

It's fantastic to read about the wide variety of strategies pursued in this GotM. It's great to know that a mix of peace, war, diplomacy, and expansion can be mixed together successfully without having to focus exclusively on one thing.

I also liked hearing about the mixed army you used Bernd-das-Brot. In too many computer games out there (including vanilla Civ 5) it's possible to just spam 1 unit type and win. A big goal of VEM is to make combined arms fun and rewarding.

I chose a map with lots of rough terrain to contrast with Game 2, which heavily favored mounted units. This game favored immortals, vanguards, swords, and other footsoldiers. Building roads in advance through the jungle to help our armies is something I did too. It's helpful when our homeland is in a swamp.

I loved reading the story of your game Bernd-das-Brot. It was a fun narrative.

The rest of my game was fairly uneventful. I stayed at 5 cities (one of them was a puppet, and I annexed Monty's capital) and grew them up as fast as possible. Improving all of the tiles took forever - Pyramids would have been the best choice for an early wonder (I went with the GL instead). I got most of the wonders that I wanted - I missed the Eiffel Tower by 1 turn (after I had used a GE to rush, but still had 6 turns left to build afterward). I also missed the Sydney Opera House by 3 turns. But neither of these would have had an impact.

I ended up making 10 or 11 GS over the course of the game, and saved most for the end. I beelined research labs first, then went for the Apollo. I messed up a bit on my timing at the end in terms of bulbing GS and utilizing the 2 free techs from the Enlightenment tree, which cost me a few turns. But all in all I think the tall approach was fairly competitive. I had no other significant wars except for the early one to take Monty's capital (and he started that one). Askia DoWed me for a bit in the mid-game, but never sent much in the way of troops, and he eventually gave me straight peace and became friendly again. I had DoF's, open borders and RA's with most of the civs throughout the game, and was in a Golden Age for most of the game. I had a lot of troops that I didn't need, all gifts from my 2 militaristic CS allies.

The other AI's did fairly well in terms of expanding, but there weren't any real runaways. Siam had the best score (and a ton of tiny island cities) and Monty was the clear loser. I have no idea what the AI's were trying to do in terms of a victory condition. Whatever it was it was very ineffective, There was a lot of competition for CS so no one could go for a diplo win (although I could have done that quite easily as I had 6 CS allies for most of the game and could have picked up more at the end). Only Siam had 2 policy trees completed (I had almost 4 - Tradition, Piety, Enlightenment and most of Freedom). I guess most of the other civs were going for science victories as well but they never got to building spaceship parts. Siam was only about 5 or 6 techs behind me. One of the biggest problems with this map is that the AI generally has a very difficult time with rough terrain, particularly with combat. There needs to be a lot of open terrain for the AI to have any kind of a chance.

Here is a screen shot of my end game: http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594701250463033206/3C965BA827A68A1CA7FAA4B6A813751A5B6EE55E/

Oops I forgot to attach my save game. And my HoF score was 2001.

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594701250463819303/FB7D19354BB30DE103118F77050760EEB609BED9/

Bernd-das-Brot said:

After I had scouted a bit and met Monty (by far the most aggresive neighbour one could have), I decided that there are no spots worth of settling and immediately prepared for attacking Monty before he can do it.

Click to expand...

I always build two cities before starting to war in domination games, and thought you could have built a good one south of the capital. But it's very hard to argue with your results!

(Turn: ~170, the conquered cities build mainly happiness/culture infra, a few units, some caravels (looking for the other capitals) and later a navy of 10+ SoL and frigates; all except Thebes on prod focus, Persepolis had settled 3 or 4 scientists and used its many jungle tiles for extra research)
(Research after Education: Chemistry - Navigation -Dynamite - Steam)
(Culture: Finished honor, then piety, then took the science happiness bonus)

Click to expand...

I think this was the key to your win: building SOTL's to quickly take the coastal cities (something I just discovered playing Germany with maintenance-free ships), and getting your research cranked up high enough to attack the second continent with rifles and wind up with artillery before the end. How did you do it, given how few cities you had, and not focusing on science via Enlightenment or Patronage?

- I think Persias building is too powerful. After turn 60 or so I never went out of golden age. And I only used one GG to create a golden Age! No Chichen Itza, no Taj Mahal. Perhaps removing the one time bonus would be better. Persia has a great SpUnit and a very good SpAbility, they don't need a great building either.
First I thought the movement bonus would be medium at best, but having 3 movement points with melee and artillery is absolutely amazing.

Click to expand...

I agree, and said so elsewhere.

What was your HOF score?

RedRover57 said:

The rest of my game was fairly uneventful. I stayed at 5 cities (one of them was a puppet, and I annexed Monty's capital) and grew them up as fast as possible. Improving all of the tiles took forever - Pyramids would have been the best choice for an early wonder (I went with the GL instead).

I ended up making 10 or 11 GS over the course of the game, and saved most for the end. I beelined research labs first, then went for the Apollo. I messed up a bit on my timing at the end in terms of bulbing GS and utilizing the 2 free techs from the Enlightenment tree, which cost me a few turns. But all in all I think the tall approach was fairly competitive.

Click to expand...

I went with Citizenship when the Pyramids were quickly gobbled up, and agree that fast workers were key. A Science win in 281 turns with a non-prime science civ and a tough start seems really good to me.

I won a science victory 36 turns later (T317). What's interesting about this is that by the end I had 8 cities between size 9 and 20, with research labs everywhere and science specialist slots maxed out, and constant RA's with several DoF's, yet only putting out over 1400 beakers. I also had broadcast towers everywhere, and wound up with a mix of Tradition and Liberty, all of Enlightenment and three in Commerce. I'm starting to conclude that tall works better than wide for science, even though it doesn't make sense theoretically.

I think had as many well-promoted units this game as I've ever had, and enjoyed bolstering Egypt while pushing back Songhai, eventually creating a sold Mongol corridor to separate Egypt from Songhai. Otherwise I maintained good-to-excellent relations with everyone else.

Txurce said:

A Science win in 281 turns with a non-prime science civ and a tough start seems really good to me.

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Things started out fairly slow so I was just aiming for sub-300. But science really started to pick up after about turn 200 when my cities started growing fast (hospitals, etc. and all of the science buildings, specialists plus improved jungles with villages). By turn 225 I was up at around 600 bpt, and I peaked at around 1200 bpt when on full science focus. A good chunk of that came from RA's (250-300 bpt at peak). My cities had good production too, so building things like the factories and parts was fast. I had a GE ready to rush Apollo and didn't need it since it only took 4 turns to build. Spaceship parts took about 3 turns each and I had 4 good production cities. I would have finished about 15 turns earlier if I had timed things right. I ended up with 3 extra GS and I only used one of the two free techs from the Enlightenment policy to bulb the final spaceship part tech. So there is definitely room for improvement.

For fun I used the last GE to rush the Pentagon and wow that is a crazy good wonder. Would be essential for a domination game, in concert with Professional Army, since unit upgrades are very expensive with this mod. Also, with some militaristic CS allies you can't beat getting a free mech infantry, artillery, tank, etc. with 3 initial promotions plus free March every 10 turns or so! I was even getting free units with 2 promotions very early in the game. Awesome for any victory condition really.

I just played a quick reload of the GotVEM. I received no advantage from foreknowledge, because I only built 4 cities, and never built a ship. I just played a simple Tradition/NC start. I missed CI, but picked up the PT, TM, and SoL. I had a long war with Songhai, was enemies with the Aztecs, and didn't meet Siam until around T235 (so fewer RA's), and didn't micromanage as much as I did in my official game. I still finished under 300 turns, which is 20 turns better than that game. The point here is that I am increasingly convinced that tall strategies are usually better for Science Victories.

Txurce said:

I always build two cities before starting to war in domination games, and thought you could have built a good one south of the capital. But it's very hard to argue with your results!



I think this was the key to your win: building SOTL's to quickly take the coastal cities (something I just discovered playing Germany with maintenance-free ships), and getting your research cranked up high enough to attack the second continent with rifles and wind up with artillery before the end. How did you do it, given how few cities you had, and not focusing on science via Enlightenment or Patronage?



I agree, and said so elsewhere.

What was your HOF score?

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I didn't build a second city so I could conquer both of Monties cities and grow my own capital (which got Hanging Gardens) without getting happiness problems. And a settler had meant two Immortals less or at least later. And Askia attacked me early and I wanted his cities, too. So no happiness left for own cities.

SoLs or Ironclads are awesome against the AI. The AI uses its fleet very poorly, so with 4-8 ships you can rule the coast (even on immortal) and conquer coastal cities. Inland cities are much harder on the higher difficulties.

My capital (20+) was heavy on science with 3 academies/NL and in each of my major cities (capital, 2 atztec, 3 mali one with GL, 1 egypt capital, osman capital) I had all science buildings and several scientist. Most of my army was early build and upgraded units or gifts from my two military CS allies, so I could focus on infrastructure and later navy. And I took 3 Enlightment policies, mainly for the happiness bonus.

HoF score was 3300. (See attachment.)

Bernd-das-Brot said:

I didn't build a second city so I could conquer both of Monties cities and grow my own capital (which got Hanging Gardens) without getting happiness problems. And a settler had meant two Immortals less or at least later. And Askia attacked me early and I wanted his cities, too. So no happiness left for own cities.

SoLs or Ironclads are awesome against the AI. The AI uses its fleet very poorly, so with 4-8 ships you can rule the coast (even on immortal) and conquer coastal cities. Inland cities are much harder on the higher difficulties.

My capital (20+) was heavy on science with 3 academies/NL and in each of my major cities (capital, 2 atztec, 3 mali one with GL, 1 egypt capital, osman capital) I had all science buildings and several scientist. Most of my army was early build and upgraded units or gifts from my two military CS allies, so I could focus on infrastructure and later navy. And I took 3 Enlightment policies, mainly for the happiness bonus.

HoF score was 3300. (See attachment.)

Click to expand...

Thanks for the details. I've tried this sort of scientific/military approach before, but never with such good results. It sounds like you had a relatively small army - but that was all you needed.

That you waited to conquer your continent before moving on to the other one is interesting. I guess you could have sailed over sooner, but you wouldn't have had SotL's, which made your blitzkrieg possible.

All done with a science victory at turn 315 with a score of 4840 (HOF score ~7700...couldnt find a way to look at it again)

This was a replay after a disastrous start first time, then a motherboard murder by my meddling partner.

I ended up taking enlightenment but saving the final free tech policies for the final spaceship techs. In the mean time I got to the happy improving policies in order, and was about to open the happy courthouse bonus in autocracy when a science victory was in reach. I build four core cities then settled islands/peripheral spots a bit (maybe eight in total, one trash island city just to rebase my planes through).

Squashed Siam then Arabia with Mongolias help, went into -70 unhappy but the rebel mechanic was a bit ineffective. The lost production didn't seem to hurt either (especially with a permagolen age to balance it out).

I could have attacked Mongolia in the end and won in about as many turns, but the time involved in pushing through all his units would have taken too much real world time.

I guess I am starting to agree with the players who argue Persia is powerful but a bit boring. Permanent golden ages mean there is no pressure/planning in going to war while the movement bonus is in place.

The map on the other hand was brilliant and a lot of fun to play. I would be tempted to suggest the next map be something hand crafted (any volunteers) and perhaps utterly bizarre and unrealistic.....

Next GoTM as Incans or Spain? Spain could be very interesting, but Thal would need to balance the Natural Wonders evenly to avoid Spain's UA becoming useless or OP.

void_genesis said:

All done with a science victory at turn 315 with a score of 4840 (HOF score ~7700...couldnt find a way to look at it again)

I guess I am starting to agree with the players who argue Persia is powerful but a bit boring. Permanent golden ages mean there is no pressure/planning in going to war while the movement bonus is in place.

Click to expand...

That's a terrific score. I was wondering if you'd wind up in the stratosphere given your plans for an all-around effort. For the record, you can look at the HOF score when you exit the game (not Civ 5) and click on "Other" in the main menu.

Yes, shorter GA's would be an improvement, as long as they don't make Persia less interesting by weakening it. Ahriman proposed shorter, more powerful GA's. This could be good as they aren't too short. But to me the issue is that it's too easy to stay in one (not how long any particular one is).

black213 said:

Next GoTM as Incans or Spain? Spain could be very interesting, but Thal would need to balance the Natural Wonders evenly to avoid Spain's UA becoming useless or OP.

Click to expand...

Given that Thal is taking a break right now, I think this is unlikely.

Txurce said:

That's a terrific score. I was wondering if you'd wind up in the stratosphere given your plans for an all-around effort. For the record, you can look at the HOF score when you exit the game (not Civ 5) and click on "Other" in the main menu.

Yes, shorter GA's would be an improvement, as long as they don't make Persia less interesting by weakening it. Ahriman proposed shorter, more powerful GA's. This could be good as they aren't too short. But to me the issue is that it's too easy to stay in one (not how long any particular one is).



Given that Thal is taking a break right now, I think this is unlikely.

Click to expand...

Well, it could be organized by someone else too.