Science

rfxmills · May 15, 2012

Thalassicus said:
There's no specific word for where this type of instruction takes place, so I picked a phrase that sounded nice. It's important we don't get too caught up in the name.

As you say the name isn't that important. If you ignore the arguments about the name, most of us are agreeing that 1 :c5science:

per

is too powerful for the first science building and maintains the status quo of population being the primary controller for science mentioned in OP.

Thalassicus said:
I moved markets earlier for two reasons:

It balances the reduction in village gold, so our overall gold supply isn't much lower.

G&K expands the classical era to 2 columns, which places currency very far away from the early eras. There's buildings available in the ancient era for each of the other yields (granary, stable, library, monument, colosseum) and I feel it works better if gold has one too.

Moving the market earlier and weakening it is fine, but as you said we don't get as much gold from villages now as well, leaving us worse off for gold generation in the late classical era. I think that improving the efficiency of markets at currency will make prevent markets being too OP early and help us cope with rising maintenance costs before banks becomes available.

Thalassicus said:
Stonehenge is the early Faith wonder in the expansion, which I kind of like. I haven't decided yet where to put the border expansion effect.

I agree, get Stonehenge as the Celts and you'll be laughing all the way to the faith bank

I think that Luxor Obelisk as a new wonder is a good fit for the border expansion effect. Have it at Masonry, tone done the culture and give it something else, maybe a GG point or a free monument in all cities?

Txurce · May 15, 2012

rfxmills said:
If you ignore the arguments about the name, most of us are agreeing that 1 per is too powerful for the first science building and maintains the status quo of population being the primary controller for science mentioned in OP.

I'm not sure about "most of us." I don't think it's OP, even if I didn't believe that population is supposed to drive science. Without it, there would be precious few farms built.

I think that improving the efficiency of markets at currency will make prevent markets being too OP early and help us cope with rising maintenance costs before banks becomes available.

I suggested this when the change appeared on the mod description. Boosting markets at Currency feels right; if it's a matter of balancing, why not nerf it a bit at the start to allow the boost later?

Thalassicus · May 15, 2012

The other buffs compensate for the -1 gold from markets.

Market
Trade (was Currency)
:c5production:

Cost: 75%

Gold: 0 (was 1) + 1 per luxury
:c5gold:

Gold: 20%

Merchant: 1

Mint
Currency
:c5gold:

Gold per

: 1 (was 0)
:c5gold:

Gold: 1 for silver/gold/gems
:c5greatperson:

Merchant: 1
Requires Market

@rfxmills
Let's consider some possible scenarios. Compare a pre-writing empire with a total of 10 :c5citizen:

and halls in cities:

v154
05

(20%) base
20 :c5science:

(80%) from undeveloped population

v154.1
15 :c5science:

(43%) base
10 :c5science:

(29%) from undeveloped population
10 :c5science:

(29%) from buildings

Post-writing with 20 :c5citizen:

, four villages, and halls+libraries in cities:

v154
05 (08%) base
40 (62%) pop
20 (31%) buildings

v154.1
15 (21%) base
20 (28%) pop
04 (06%) improvements
33 (46%) buildings

Post-writing with 40 :c5citizen:

, 10 villages, halls+libraries, and 4 scientists:

v154
05 (04%) base
80 (58%) pop
12 (09%) specialists
40 (29%) buildings

v154.1
15 (11%) base
40 (28%) pop
10 (07%) improvements
12 (08%) specialists
65 (46%) buildings

rfxmills said:
1 per is too powerful for the first science building, and maintains the status quo of population being the primary controller for science mentioned in OP.

It's is the same bonus the Library used to have. Its contribution to science is less powerful in the early game, since we get more science per-player, which reduces the effect of building halls/libraries. I also showed earlier that it's not more powerful than a monument, since it produces only 1 :c5science:

when built right away, compared to a monument's 4 :c5culture:

.

The tables above demonstrate we reduced the income from undeveloped population by approximately 50%. That accomplishes my goal stated in the OP:

Thalassicus said:
I'd like to shift science away from undeveloped population, and towards developed sources like improvements, buildings, policies, etc.

rfxmills · May 15, 2012

Pre-writing empire with a total of 10 :c5citizen:

and halls in cities:

v154
05

(20%) base
20 :c5science:

(80%) from undeveloped population

v154.1
15 :c5science:

(43%) base
10 :c5science:

(29%) from undeveloped population
10 :c5science:

(29%) from Mentor Hall

Post-writing with 20 :c5citizen:

, four villages, and halls+libraries in cities:

v154
05 (08%) base
40 (62%) pop
20 (31%) Library

v154.1
15 (21%) base
20 (28%) pop
20 (28%) Mentor's Hall
13 (18%) Library
04 (06%) improvements

Post-writing with 40 :c5citizen:

, 10 villages, halls+libraries, and 4 scientists:

v154
05 (04%) base
80 (58%) pop
12 (09%) specialists
40 (29%) Library

v154.1
15 (11%) base
40 (30%) pop
40 (30%) Mentor Hall
16 (12%) Library
10 (08%) improvements
12 (09%) specialists

I've separated the Mentor Hall/Library returns and you can see that the building which requires no tech is more powerful than the one which requires you to research writing and has higher hammer and maintenance costs?

albie_123 · May 15, 2012

Well, apart from the possible new wonder to take over Stonehenge's ability when G&K comes out, consider me convinced.

I'll have to save that Stone Circle icon for a possible unique building for the Celts.

Thalassicus · May 15, 2012

@rfxmills
That's diminishing returns. The more we get of something, the less powerful additional gains become. It's how the game and economies work. A common example in a different area of the game is promotions:

1.2/1.0 = 20% shock 1
1.4/1.2 = 17% shock 2

rfxmills · May 16, 2012

I've added a 4th scenario for after universities and recalculated the tables to include my proposals under v154.1a, which are the same as v154.1 apart from:

Mentor's Hall 4
Library 1 per (I removed the Printing Press enhancer as I think it overpowered the library).

Scenario 1: Pre-Writing empire with a total of 10 :c5citizen:

and halls in 2 cities:

Source | v154 | v154.1 | v154.1a
Player|5 (20%)|15 (43%)|15 (45%)
Pop|20 (80%)|10 (29%)|10 (30%)
Mentor Hall|0|10 (29%)|8 (24%)
Total | 25 | 35 | 33

Scenario 2: Post-Writing empire with 20 :c5citizen:

, 4 villages, and halls+libraries in 3 cities:

Source | v154 | v154.1 | v154.1a
Player|5 (8%)|15 (21%)|15 (21%)
Pop|40 (62%)|20 (29%)|20 (28%)
Villages|0|4 (6%)|4 (6%)
Mentor Hall|0|20 (29%)|12 (17%)
Library|20 (31%)|11 (16%)|20 (28%)
Total | 65 | 70 | 71

Scenario 3: Post-Writing empire with 40 :c5citizen:

, 10 villages, 4 scientists, and halls+libraries in 4 cities:

Source | v154 | v154.1 | v154.1a
Player|5 (4%)|15 (11%)|15 (11%)
Pop|80 (58%)|40 (28%)|40 (30%)
Villages|0|10 (8%)|10 (8%)
Scientists|12 (9%)|12 (8%)|12 (9%)
Mentor Hall|0|40 (28%)|16 (12%)
Library|40 (29%)|25.5 (18%)|40 (30%)
Total | 137 | 142.5 | 133

Scenario 4: Post-University empire with 120 :c5citizen:

, 30 villages, 12 scientists, and halls+libraries+universties in 8 cities:

Source | v154 | v154.1 | v154.1a
Player|5 (1%)|15 (3%)|15 (3%)
Pop|240 (45%)|120 (24%)|120 (26%)
Villages|0|30 (6%)|30 (6%)
Scientists|36 (7%)|36 (7%)|36 (8%)
Mentor Hall|0|120 (24%)|32 (7%)
Library|120 (23%)|76.5 (15%)|120 (26%)
University|130.7 (25%)|101.0 (20%)|111.5 (24%)
Total | 531.7 | 498.5 | 464.5

With v154.1 the Mentor Hall is the largest contributor towards science from buildings throughout the examples. While with v154.1a Mentor Halls start to produce diminishing returns as the other science buildings begin to take over.

Per population bonuses are the best way to increase your science output, by putting that effect on a building which requires a prerequisite building you are rewarding more developed cities which have invested in their science infrastructure.

Zaldron · May 16, 2012

rfxmills said:
With v154.1 the Mentor Hall is the largest contributor towards science from buildings throughout the examples. While with v154.1a Mentor Halls start to produce diminishing returns as the other science buildings begin to take over.

You keep forgetting to show us the analysis for more smaller cities. With a mere 20 cities your mentor's hall is about 70% as effective as the current version. But with 30 or more cities your mentor's hall becomes more powerful, not to mention all the extra scientists you get to run devaluing population even further.

Fixed science was tried in release Civ5 and it didn't work, so they changed it.

All that said perhaps the Mentor's hall would be better off at 1 per 2 population and increase the bonus of the library.

albie_123 · May 16, 2012

Mere 20 cities?

I can't remember the last time I played a game where I had that many cities, excluding when I'm about to win Conquest, at which point I wouldn't bother building inside those cities at all.

Thalassicus · May 16, 2012

@rfxmills
I've pointed out that flat yields reduce tall empires and buff wide empires. Why do you feel that's necessary?

Zaldron said:
All that said perhaps the Mentor's hall would be better off at 1 per 2 population and increase the bonus of the library.

How about...

Move 1 per 2 from the hall to the library
Reduce library percent to 10-20%

Txurce · May 16, 2012

Why change it at all? Is anyone getting too much science and they want less, or too little and they want more?

The idea of a Mentors' Hall being available from the start is certainly not harder to accept than science in villages after one tech.

Seek · May 16, 2012

Thalassicus said:
@rfxmills
How about...

Move 1 per 2 from the hall to the library

Reduce library percent to 10-20%

Sounds good.

Txurce said:
Why change it at all? Is anyone getting too much science and they want less, or too little and they want more?

As I see it, the biggest change from 154->154.1 is that pop science now requires production to return to the previous levels (the village science will have a smaller impact since we didn't in fact change the basic 2 :c5science:

/

model) - increasing the production needed will further this goal.

Txurce · May 16, 2012

Seek said:
As I see it, the biggest change from 154->154.1 is that pop science now requires production to return to the previous levels (the village science will have a smaller impact since we didn't in fact change the basic 2/ model) - increasing the production needed will further this goal.

The basic 2:1 science/pop model (w/MH) didn't change, but the Village is very attractive, so the balance is different. Yes, more production would help. So how would you change the MH/Library to achieve that?

rfxmills · May 16, 2012

Thalassicus said:
@rfxmills
I've pointed out that flat yields reduce tall empires and buff wide empires. Why do you feel that's necessary?

How about...

Move 1 per 2 from the hall to the library

Reduce library percent to 10-20%

I was trying to come up with a) a way of making Libraries better than Mentor Halls and b) create an interesting choice between the Mentor Hall and the Monument.

Do you mean:

Mentor Hall providing 1 per 2 .
Library providing 1 per 2 and 15% .

That fixes a), but makes b) less of an interesting choice as Monuments are clearly better.

Thalassicus · May 16, 2012

@Txurce
He explained the two reasons above ^^

@rfxmills
I'm thinking the hall can be 1 :c5science:

+ 0.5

/

as a compromise between the current version, your suggestion, and Zaldron's suggestion. This will make the monument better than the hall for small cities (1-5 :c5citizen:

), and the hall better than the monument for moderate-sized to large cities.

Seek · May 16, 2012

Thalassicus said:
I'm thinking the hall can be 1 + 0.5/ as a compromise between the current version, your suggestion, and Zaldron's suggestion. This will make the monument better than the hall for small cities (1-5), and the hall better than the monument for moderate-sized to large cities.

This works well in my eyes.

Thalassicus · May 16, 2012

On an unrelated side note, in v156 I returned the Great Library to the 1-free-tech bonus and increased the cost. The bonus is straightforward, unique, effective, and doesn't limit great person creation to scientists. I realized that my attempts to nerf the GL by reducing its effects resulted in an overly complicated and unoriginal building. It's probably better to just raise the cost.

rfxmills · May 16, 2012

Thalassicus said:
@rfxmills
I'm thinking the hall can be 1 + 0.5/ as a compromise between the current version, your suggestion, and Zaldron's suggestion. This will make the monument better than the hall for small cities (1-5), and the hall better than the monument for moderate-sized to large cities.

Cool, that's sorted most of my concerns. Sorry about banging on about this, but it is a very important change and I think we've got a better solution now :thumbsup:

Seek · May 16, 2012

Thalassicus said:
On an unrelated side note, in v156 I returned the Great Library to the 1-free-tech bonus and increased the cost. The bonus is straightforward, unique, effective, and doesn't limit great person creation to scientists. I realized that my attempts to nerf the GL by reducing its effects resulted in an overly complicated and unoriginal building. It's probably better to just raise the cost.

Yeah, I noticed that in the email, but didn't want to comment on it in case you hadn't finalized the decision. In any case I like the move. Perhaps the HG could be returned to vanilla (or something closer to it) as well?

Thalassicus · May 16, 2012

Comparing the Hanging Gardens formats we've tried recently:

10
6 3
4 2 4

I like #2 best - it provides for exactly three citizens. I found #1 too focused, and #3 not focused enough.

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