Growth and Science

Tomice said:
Which isn't the worst thing considering you can get way more production from specialists or other sources (like sea tiles) than in vanilla.
Click to expand...

The key here is that it is pretty much always a longterm loss to not focus on growth. If you need to build a museum, you build it A LOT faster with a 30 pop city compared to a 15 pop city. This means that whenever you're not focusing on food, you should make sure whatever you're focusing on instead is actually worth the loss of longterm power.

Focusing on production to get workers out? Are you working multiple unimproved tile? Absolutely, get right on it. Working unimproved tiles is terrible.

Focusing on some cultural specialists to help you get policies faster and speed up your progression even more? Usually worth it.

Focusing on production to get a production-building up and can produce other things faster? Usually worth it.

Focusing on production to get a food-building (aqueduct, watermill, grocer, medical lab) up so you can grow faster? Pretty much always worth it.

Here you run into some conflict, food-buildings are more important than production-buildings, but production-buildings help you get the food-buildings up faster, making them worth focusing on first.

Everything besides this is low priority, or varying priority based on the situation. Can I cut unit-production to get 3 more pop or do I need to unit to keep aggressors away?
Can I afford to use some scientists to gain short-term science at the cost of longterm science(growth), would it be better to focus production on a university?
Do I need these banks to afford unit-upgrade or can I just trade off my last copies of a few luxuries?
None of these are easy questions with straight up answers, if they were this wouldn't really be a very fun game.
Civ5 is really a game of greed, how much greed can you get away with without getting punished? How much punishment can you survive? Is the risk worth it?
 
Funak said:
Civ5 is really a game of greed, how much greed can you get away with without getting punished? How much punishment can you survive? Is the risk worth it?
Click to expand...

Amazing post with a great bottom line. Kudos!

One thing to add:
You also have to find a balance between vertical growth (large population per city, basically what Funak describes) and horizontal growth (many cities).
Vertikal growth should be a top priority in "good" cities that have enough production surplus. "Bad" cities hardly fulfilling their own needs with the available production should sometimes be limited in size to free up happiness for expansion.

Note that even if you don't want a city to grow, granaries can be worth it - they provide food without the need to let one of your citizens work a farm - he can work a mine instead! The deciding factor is the availability of tiles worth working and useful specialist slots. Don't build granaries in cities that have run out of useful occupations for their citizens (but remember that techs can unlock specialist slots, making more citizens worthwile again)
 
EriktheRead said:
Oh, sorry. I re-roll. I have the "swap start position" mod, and i usually wont play a start that I cant get a good game rolling with. Limited play time and need to have fun and all that.
Click to expand...

What mod is this? Tried googling 'civ v swap start position' and came up with nothing. I'm very interested in making sure I don't have a crappy start to a game, given limited playtime.
 
One thing that can't be stressed enough is to be very careful on how to improve your lands.
As Tomice already said, farm clustering is important. The adjactancy Bonus is huge. Always try to have each of your farms have two or four neighbouring farms. Also, try to have your farms next to clear water, because the bonus food for those tiles Comes much sooner.
Trading posts on connecting roads are also very powerful tiles, you want those.
It is a puzzle for every city how to maximize the output from improvements, but it is worth solving.
 
Der_Zorn_gottes said:
The adjactancy Bonus is huge. Always try to have each of your farms have two or four neighbouring farms.
Click to expand...

Oh, didn't think about the possibility of 4 neighbouring farms! Thx for mentioning it. Could be even be 3 extra food for farms totally surrounded by other farms! :crazyeye:

Any tip how to accomplish double adjacency bonus best? Triangels are pretty easy, but I can't imagine how to consistently get double adjacency...
 
There are three different configurations of 1 farm + 4 directly adjacent.

Two triangles (+6 food in total from adjacency bonus) :
Code: 
 1 1
- 2 -
 1 1

Compact (+6 food in total from adjacency bonus) :
Code: 
 1 1
1 2 1
 - -

Asymetrical (+5 food in total from adjacency bonus) :
Code: 
 1 1
- 2 1
 0 -

These are all the possible configurations with 5 farms (that allow a +2 bonus), you can see that the first two are better than the last (1 more food). A good rule of thumb would probably be to avoid having farms who aren't part of a triangle, as those are reasonably compact/easy to have and offer a nice bonus (+1 on each farm).

I don't really have a rule myself since I plant farms everywhere I can, but I try to have at least every farm be part of a triangle if possible (if I have a forest preventing me to have a triangle, I will chop it, and if a possible village would break a triangle, I build a farm instead). +2 (or +3) bonus will happen if the terrain allows it.
 
Pro tip:
If you ever succeed in getting the full hektagon-farm for that +3 bonus, your only source of coal will appear right there.
 
Funak said:
It's a whoward mod.
Click to expand...

PurpleMentat said:
What mod is this? Tried googling 'civ v swap start position' and came up with nothing. I'm very interested in making sure I don't have a crappy start to a game, given limited playtime.
Click to expand...

My approach to this matter, that almost always provide me a satisfactory and likable game is doing always three start, save each one and then choose (keeping this strict and avoiding the temptation to do a fourth one or discarding the saves and doing another cycle of three).

This way provides me a very enjoyable first layer of decision, usually with at least one decent start according to the bias of the Civ and giving me not reason or justification to repeatedly reroll.
 
Funak said:
I'm usually around the same pop as the AI with the same number of cities the few times I play Deity, maybe 10% behind. Naturally if an AI expands out of control and takes over half the map he is going to out-populate me a bit.
Click to expand...

I find that hard to believe, but if you say so.

In my next few games I'll try putting more emphasis on food, see where it leads me.
 
Funak said:
Roads(that provide city-connection) and trade-routes passing over villages add hammers and gold to the village tile, a lot of hammers and gold.
Click to expand...

I don't know if it is a bug or not, but the road does not actually have to provide a city connection over the village.

On this screenshot I get the extra yields, but the road does not actually go anywere. There is a city connection on the other side of my city though.

Spoiler :
aCXx40v.jpg
 
mernild said:
I don't know if it is a bug or not, but the road does not actually have to provide a city connection over the village.

On this screenshot I get the extra yields, but the road does not actually go anywere. There is a city connection on the other side of my city though.

Spoiler :
aCXx40v.jpg
Click to expand...

If a TR is passing over it, you get bonuses.

G
 
Gazebo said:
If a TR is passing over it, you get bonuses.

G
Click to expand...

There are two different bonuses right? One for trade route passing through and one for being on a city connection road. Or did I get that wrong?

When I remove the road, I lose 1g and 1p even though the trade route is still on it though.
 
Dunkah said:
So what does building a Village on a road do?

@Tomice: Please define a Surplus Production City.
Click to expand...

+1 :c5production: +1 :c5gold:

also railroad on villages gives +2 :c5production: +2 :c5gold:

trade routes passing over villages also gives +1 :c5production: +1 :c5gold: pre industrial era and +2 :c5production: +2 :c5gold: post industrial

Protip: when choosing trade route destination city, the caravan travels along your road if you have them between the cities, so make zigszags and it will pass through more villages

the top village produces 1:c5food: 6:c5production: 9:c5gold: 3:c5science: 3:c5culture:
1:c5food: 1 (plains)
6:c5production: 1 (plains) + 2 (rail on village) + 3 (hydroplant)
9:c5gold: 3 (village) + 2 (rail on village) + (1 golden age) + 3 (three adjacent polders)
3:c5science: 3 (free thought social policy from rationalism)
3:c5culture: 1 (village) + 2 (free thought social policy from rationalism)

the bottom village produces 1:c5food: 8:c5production: 11:c5gold: 3:c5science: 3:c5culture:
everything is the same except it's on a trade route passed through by caravan, since its post industrial age it gets +2:c5production: +2:c5gold:

Spoiler :
300efza.png


Blind me with them yieldzzzzz

Spoiler :
dbt8n7.png



so rush for currency and spam the villages, they are the by far the strongest improvements and can be further buffed by rationalism. the catch is no two can be adjacent so you'll have to plan ahead where you build them

there are generally two layouts:

the first one is more compact and allows for more villages but the spaces in between cannot build triangle cluster of farms. but is perfect for example dutch polders which improves adjacent villages even more

-v o o v o o v
o o v o o v o o
-v o o v o o v
o o v o o v o o
-v o o v o o v

the second layout allows you to build triangle clusters in between, e.g.

-o v o v o v o
o o o F F o o o
-v o v F v o v
o o o o o o o o
-o v o v o v o

obviously you'll have to adjust for resources but try to keep the formation, even missing some due to resources is fine, its easier to keep the formation. strategic resources can be improved by towns and place towns between the gaps of your villages on trade routes since they get the same bonus from roads and trade routes.

basically post industrial rail+trade route on village meas extra 4:c5production: and 4:c5gold:
 
mernild said:
There are two different bonuses right? One for trade route passing through and one for being on a city connection road. Or did I get that wrong?

When I remove the road, I lose 1g and 1p even though the trade route is still on it though.
Click to expand...

Correct, separate things. You can check if a tile is a 'city connection' by going to strategic view and enabling the 'city connections' filter. Please check to see if that tile is showing up as a city connection for me.

G
 
BenchBreaker said:
+1 :c5production: +1 :c5gold:

also railroad on villages gives +2 :c5production: +2 :c5gold:

trade routes passing over villages also gives +1 :c5production: +1 :c5gold: pre industrial era and +2 :c5production: +2 :c5gold: post industrial

Protip: when choosing trade route destination city, the caravan travels along your road if you have them between the cities, so make zigszags and it will pass through more villages

the top village produces 1:c5food: 6:c5production: 9:c5gold: 3:c5science: 3:c5culture:
1:c5food: 1 (plains)
6:c5production: 1 (plains) + 2 (rail on village) + 3 (hydroplant)
9:c5gold: 3 (village) + 2 (rail on village) + (1 golden age) + 3 (three adjacent polders)
3:c5science: 3 (free thought social policy from rationalism)
3:c5culture: 1 (village) + 2 (free thought social policy from rationalism)

the bottom village produces 1:c5food: 8:c5production: 11:c5gold: 3:c5science: 3:c5culture:
everything is the same except it's on a trade route passed through by caravan, since its post industrial age it gets +2:c5production: +2:c5gold:

Spoiler :
300efza.png


Blind me with them yieldzzzzz

Spoiler :
dbt8n7.png



so rush for currency and spam the villages, they are the by far the strongest improvements and can be further buffed by rationalism. the catch is no two can be adjacent so you'll have to plan ahead where you build them

there are generally two layouts:

the first one is more compact and allows for more villages but the spaces in between cannot build triangle cluster of farms. but is perfect for example dutch polders which improves adjacent villages even more

-v o o v o o v
o o v o o v o o
-v o o v o o v
o o v o o v o o
-v o o v o o v

the second layout allows you to build triangle clusters in between, e.g.

-o v o v o v o
o o o F F o o o
-v o v F v o v
o o o o o o o o
-o v o v o v o

obviously you'll have to adjust for resources but try to keep the formation, even missing some due to resources is fine, its easier to keep the formation. strategic resources can be improved by towns and place towns between the gaps of your villages on trade routes since they get the same bonus from roads and trade routes.

basically post industrial rail+trade route on village meas extra 4:c5production: and 4:c5gold:
Click to expand...

Oh my.

Tell me, though, are the roads that aren't actually city connections giving you a bonus? Because that's not good.

G
 
Gazebo said:
Oh my.

Tell me, though, are the roads that aren't actually city connections giving you a bonus? Because that's not good.

G
Click to expand...

I think I saw indicator that building a road would give me 1P1G once when my worker was on a Town in an absolutely random coastal place from Polynesian guy so I assume it would give that, unless the worker indicator lied. The road wouldn't be able to connect to any city as no city could've been built in a place that a caravan would go there.
 
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