A small Council suggestion

[myclan]

Council is the main way to get beakers before we can build a library and raise a scientist. But I think it’s a bit odd to give 5 beakers for every population growth.

The most efficient way will be working some production-rich but food-poor tiles, to rush a council and then enjoy the growth and beakers at the same time.

But if there are no such tiles, especially for tradition which is short of production to finish the council early, it will become much less attractive to build a council for just +1 beaker per turn.

Will it be better to make the council +1 beaker from 3 pop just like the palace? And maybe have a cap of 3? It will make council still valuable if not being built first, and strengthen tradition science output a bit in early game.

 

[msw1]

I'd support anything that makes this building a little better. Unless I have something that buffs it the only reason I ever build it is because it's a prereq to building a library.

 

[Stalker0]

this is not a "small change". It becomes an extra +1-2 science in every city very early in the game (and will scale up higher than that). Make no mistake, this is a big change.

 

[myclan]

this is not a "small change". It becomes an extra +1-2 science in every city very early in the game (and will scale up higher than that). Make no mistake, this is a big change.

If we assume one city with 3~6 pop before library, +1 beaker from 3 pop will be 1~2 beakers/turn，0~1 more than current. And by taking the +5 beakers from pop grow away, there will not be a huge difference, but more favoring a "tall" style.

 

[Stalker0]

If we assume one city with 3~6 pop before library, +1 beaker from 3 pop will be 1~2 beakers/turn，0~1 more than current. And by taking the +5 beakers from pop grow away, there will not be a huge difference, but more favoring a "tall" style.

That’s per city…for the rest of the game. Yes that makes a big difference

 

[myclan]

That’s per city…for the rest of the game. Yes that makes a big difference

If it's still too much for a council to provide +3 beakers/turn in cities >9pop，take 1 beaker away from library and university respectively may work. But council just need some buff especially in tradition "Tall“ game.

 

[MIS]

If it's still too much for a council to provide +3 beakers/turn in cities >9pop，take 1 beaker away from library and university respectively may work. But council just need some buff especially in tradition "Tall“ game.

In my tradition games, it's the second building I get. Monument->Stonehenge.

 

[ma_kuh]

Does Tall fall behind in tech? I don't really think it does. Tall already rushes libraries when allowed. I think this would have more of an impact on military-focused starts, to be honest.

Just spitballing, if you have Council + Barracks + Forge, that's +3 science per city. Compared to Council + Library + Scientist, for +6. Going from +3 > +4 is going to be a bigger difference than +6 > +7.

 

[myclan]

In my tradition games, it's the second building I get. Monument->Stonehenge.

Yes for the great capital, but for the 2nd/3rd/4th city, +1 beaker/turn (+2 later) is just not appealing when there are so many to be built with low production

Does Tall fall behind in tech? I don't really think it does. Tall already rushes libraries when allowed. I think this would have more of an impact on military-focused starts, to be honest.

Just spitballing, if you have Council + Barracks + Forge, that's +3 science per city. Compared to Council + Library + Scientist, for +6. Going from +3 > +4 is going to be a bigger difference than +6 > +7.

When playing wide with progress, +3 beakers/city as soon as road being connected, and more council/library/scientist for more cities. While being tall with tradition, less building, more population, but the more pop don't contribute to science as Vanilla. So it becomes a must to rush writing/council/library, which costs lots of production and beakers itself, not a easy task considering the poor yields outside the capital.

 

[ma_kuh]

You can't compare the science from city connections but ignore the free scientist and science from Court Astrologer. On top of that, Tradition gets +1 science to Council, Herbalist, Lodge already. And pop does contribute to science, in the one city of a Tradition empire that matters. I don't think it's any more forced to rush Writing than Progress.

Not building Council in the first 3 buildings means you're intentionally giving up the earliest population triggers, and feels like a playstyle issue rather than anything else. Giving Council a population cap will just incentivize more 6-pop cities, and do nothing for tall core cities which surpass that threshold early. I don't think this change would do what you think it would in terms of tall vs. wide science numbers.

 

[myclan]

You can't compare the science from city connections but ignore the free scientist and science from Court Astrologer. On top of that, Tradition gets +1 science to Council, Herbalist, Lodge already. And pop does contribute to science, in the one city of a Tradition empire that matters. I don't think it's any more forced to rush Writing than Progress.

Not building Council in the first 3 buildings means you're intentionally giving up the earliest population triggers, and feels like a playstyle issue rather than anything else. Giving Council a population cap will just incentivize more 6-pop cities, and do nothing for tall core cities which surpass that threshold early. I don't think this change would do what you think it would in terms of tall vs. wide science numbers.

Tall VS Wide in science will be another big topic. So stop here and back to the council.

Even by making council the first building when settle a new city, it takes about 8 turns(even longer for tradition city except the capital) to finish. Unless we check the avoid growth intentionally, the city will grow to about 3 before the council is finished, and will be difficult to grow much further due to happiness issue in a short time. So I suggest more than the barely +1 to make it more valuable.

 

[hokath]

If the concern is that the optimal strategy is to delay growth then either
a) don't treat this as a concern, but rather a tactic that favours high prod starts
b) change the council to be like the progress opener -- giving some retroactive science based on current pop. or perhaps, if it is viewed as simpler, just give a flat science boost equal to 2 or 3 pop growth upon construction.

 

[ma_kuh]

My main thoughts so far are that this is yield inflation for the sake of some unknown specific reason. "Make Council stronger" isn't a goal I feel we should be targeting.

Is the goal to increase Council's priority relative to Shrine/Monument? Then I can see making it stronger, and pulling 1 from the Library.
Is the goal to tie Council's science triggers to high-population strategies? Then the trigger should be increased in value (5 -> 10, e.g.) instead.

 

[pineappledan]

seems to me like the goal is to revert VP back to vanilla science mechanics, where 1 = 1

Hardly a "small" suggestion, since this is one of the most immediate and starkest differences between VP and vanilla.
You'd probably have to rescale tech costs, because this is significantly more raw over the course of the game than councils give currently.

 

[myclan]

seems to me like the goal is to revert VP back to vanilla science mechanics, where 1 = 1

Hardly a "small" suggestion, since this is one of the most immediate and starkest differences between VP and vanilla.
You'd probably have to rescale tech costs, because this is significantly more raw over the course of the game than councils give currently.

It seems that VP make most of the yields of a building are not based on population, but a fixed number instead.

In vanilla, more cities produce more unhappiness, expanding too fast will suffer from low total population. Though extra yields coming from more building will compensate it later, science is almost totally based on population, so extra libraries in more cities don't have distinct advantage.
(i.e. Temporally higher yields from higher population)

But in Civ6, Academy districs give a fixed amount of beakers. The more cities, the more disctrics, then more beakers. The main restrition on expansion is the rapidly rising cost of settlers and districts itself.
(i.e. Large investment before return)

In VP, we have fixed building yields, but less restriction on expansion. If unable to born with a backyard, the game will become quite difficult for not only less space to expand, but also less advantages to fight others who try to expand more.